Centerfire moderator prices?????

[gbal]

Looks like a whole new flock of moderators are about to appear on the market that will be a quarter of the current prices. There is without question a market for a product made by someone with a machine shop, no r&d, no RFD, no liability insurance who are unwilling to submit test models for proof that for 50 quid will weigh 400g, resist gas cutting and corrosion for a minimum of 5000 rounds over 10 years use and cut at least 40dB from all calibres.

 

You two crack on with that and i promise a fortune at your fingertips, there is plenty of cheap steel knocking around too if you go after midnight to the local encampment.

 

P.s. baldie, do you need a teaboy or floor sweeper, my day rate is 50p and no paye tax or NI worries, im happy to work for nowt although i hear some people are really greedy and wotk to pay bills to live

 

There might be a market for such a spec'ed moderator-just which of the current £250+ ones weigh 400g,and are guaranteed for 5000 rounds and 10 years and -40 decibels? IF that was the performance of the available £250+ ones,AND the cheaper ones-whatever they are- regularly did much worse,there might be some point to your comments.The price of 400 g of legitimate steel is unlikely to make a big difference.The point remains,if a top rf mod is £50,no dodgy aspects,then why is a cf moderator at least 5 times the price? It's called 'transparency'.

george

[gbal]

Full liability insurance is incredibly costly for items designed and built in house, another level up on rifle building, especially if youa re building for outside of the UK/Europe (Our first quotes certainly made my eyes water!) I do wonder how many are skimping in this area, plus a properly designed and manufactured moderator or any other pressure bearing item does take time and capital investment to bring to market, people need to recoup these costs.

 

The other thing to consider is the UK market is limited due to the low number of shooters so unless you are shipping globally it is going to be hard to hit a decent volume, the UK based suppressor manufactures are not not churning out and selling 30,000 units/PA over here so costs will be higher.

OK but the issue is not primarily about 'skimping'-it is why do cf cost 5x as much as rf,both being sold manufactured by businesses that meet all the regulations,insurance etc etc.Your point about numbers may be relevant-there may well be a greater market for rf moderators,but I doubt that it is a huge difference.WE have ONE figure-an average add on of 18%,though not explicitly tied to moderators.But that won't cover all the x5 cost.R and D...most of the basics are well known enough,and extra materials-check the price of steel,it's not gold!

The rest is largely ranting,or offf the point-mark ups in other industries no doubt vary-but let's hear it-if it is 200/400% on mods,tell us.People buying mods have mouths to feed too-all this is missing the original and clear point-why do good cf mods cost so much more-'transparency' is the concept- if there is nothing to hide,fine.No one is getting at producers etc. But waving hands in the air,and wailing is getting nowhere,(Veyron fast,except when its in a traffic jam,Hatzi !)

george.

[Davy]

George,

 

Good points, I personally am always happy to declare my hourly rate, material costs and hours taken to build something so it is open book accounting from this end however people will charge what they feel the market will accept. I can cite numerous examples, look at the PH5A sight, it is GBP30 worth yet people advertise and sell them for 5 times this and after a while the market assumes this is the correct price. This applies to many shooting related items. UK manufacturing costs in general are high in comparison to other countries which renders us uncompetitive in may areas and finally the UK shooters like other are feeling the pinch so they buy less which leads to some manufacturers putting the prices up to maintain margins. Yes it is an odd approach however it is happening all over the place and certainly not just within shooting.

 

One other thing to consider is raw material costs, 303 or 316 stainless is bloody expensive these days even before it hits the machine, and if you start buying the more unusual materials such as lumps of 36NiCrMo16 the quoted prices will vary by GBP240/metre.

 

So to answer your question, why are CF Mods so expensive. A combination of material, labour and machine costs plus a perception of what the market will stand.

 

A sad state of affairs....

[onelesscharlie]

Hi Darkstar

 

I have a little experience in the manufacture of centrefire moderators and eagerly await your new range of mass produced centrefire moderators on a budget and a retail price of £150 that can cater with anything from the .17hh through to the more formidable .338 lap mag, not forgetting little gems like the all the wildcats, the .300 magnums, ultramagnums, 30-06. All this of course taking into account the individual requirements of the stalking fraternity, the target shootng fraternity, the fox shooting fraternity, the military and the law enforcement chappies.

 

All this with little or no design work being carried out because after all its only a tube with baffles in it, oh and by the way dont forget about the poor chap who's face you have blown off cos you got it a bit wrong.

 

Material is expensive, labour is expensive, industrial properties are expensive, so unfortunately most of the time the products are expensive. Also the supply chain of manufacturer - official imprter - retailer all have to make something in order to survive.

 

[gbal]

Hi Darkstar

 

I have a little experience in the manufacture of centrefire moderators and eagerly await your new range of mass produced centrefire moderators on a budget and a retail price of £150 that can cater with anything from the .17hh through to the more formidable .338 lap mag, not forgetting little gems like the all the wildcats, the .300 magnums, ultramagnums, 30-06. All this of course taking into account the individual requirements of the stalking fraternity, the target shootng fraternity, the fox shooting fraternity, the military and the law enforcement chappies.

 

All this with little or no design work being carried out because after all its only a tube with baffles in it, oh and by the way dont forget about the poor chap who's face you have blown off cos you got it a bit wrong.

 

Material is expensive, labour is expensive, industrial properties are expensive, so unfortunately most of the time the products are expensive. Also the supply chain of manufacturer - official imprter - retailer all have to make something in order to survive.

 

 

Rather defensive? No one is saying they should be £50.But no part of the cost of a standard 243 or 308 moderator should be the extra costs in developing some special application magnum.Design is well established,and is not just a tube with baffles,and no-one is saying that,but each and every mod does not need a radical new R&D input.500 g of steel isn't that expensive either.Labour can be-but then the labour for a rf baffle can't be 5x the labour for a cf baffle,can it-and by no means all mods are hand crafted-though such might command a price premium.? Why can't anyone face the basic point squarely,and give a clear answer-I am sure it would be accepted,though I suspect more than one engineer has wondered about it-since most of the factors are not very dissimilar for cf and rf,why is there such a difference in price.If they are 5 times as much,say so-and support it-otherwise it's just repetitive ''cos it's more'',with some quite spurious other distractors thrown in-of course ,no one wants 'face blown off'-but are you seriously saying decent design is a major part of the costs,and this has to be done each time from scratch? Of course titanium costs a lot more than steel,but most use steel. I don't get any feeling for an aggressive attack on producers,just a request for some transparency with some numbers,then there would be some understanding all round.Custom one off specials will be more than standard/industrial production,given-I took the interest to be more about the latter,though thee may not be that much in it,comparing like with like.

george

[Hatzi]

Perhaps someone charging the earth for a moderator might like to budget in an accountant's report for an exact cost/profit breakdown on their product's pricing.

 

I think not, they are all on holiday in St Tropez on their yachts.

[brown dog]

I think there's a lot of tosh being typed in this thread.

 

It's all in Davy's last 7 words. That's just how business, as opposed to charity, works.

 

So to answer your question, why are CF Mods so expensive. A combination of material, labour and machine costs plus a perception of what the market will stand.

[tackb]

I once looked at getting a titanium mod from a supplier (don't hear much about them now?) and after much extolling of how great the product was i eventually managed to get him to tell me the price(i think i asked six times) when he told me i politely told him it wasn't for me as it was three times the price of the competion.

 

the market dictates what you can charge, davy got it about right in his last line as BD said.

[onelesscharlie]

Lot of tosh being typed in this thread.

 

It's all in Davy's last 7 words.

 

 

 

 

Sorry..... got a little carried away.

 

The main problems here are the differences required in the general design and construction of a RF and a CF mod, the prime example is perhaps the good old market leading, low cost SAK.

 

The quantity of corrosive gases and heat it has to deal with are minimal so it can be mass manufactured from low cost decent grade aluminium on high speed CNC machinery, this leads to keeping manufacturing costs to a minimum (as long as you already have the machinery, the tooling and the factory). This moderator will work effectively for years as long as you do your part, however could you put it on your 222,.223 or 22-250 and expect it to last for any period of time I think not.

 

In order to offer any level of longevity we now have to upgrade the overall design with regard materials, gas capacity and dimensions and still remain within the limitations that the market place demands.

 

Browndog is right (as usual) and Davy perhaps knocked the nail on the head, it is a perception of what is the acceptable market price, I suppose that if the estate agent valued your house at 300k you wouldn't put it on the market at 150k because you only paid 120k for it.

 

 

In conclusion I extend an offer to Darkstar or anyone on here that is in the Mid Wales area..... come in and see exactly what goes into the design and manufacture of a moderator (both cf and rf) and if you still dont think that they are worth the money then so be it.

[gbal]

I think there's a lot of tosh being typed in this thread.

 

It's all in Davy's last 7 words. That's just how business, as opposed to charity, works.

Davy's last (5) words are actually :''a sad state of affairs''. It may well be that that is indeed the correct conclusion,given that the weasel 'perception' is clearly a factor,and no one is going to be transparent on that.Competition is of course the classic market force protection,but no-one is saying the smaller 'custom' one offs are in the same market as the major players,volume wise.Too much fluffing up feathers that were never ruffled,except by their owners 'perception'-I would not of course expect ASE etc to be forthcoming either.

Old joke-"$400 to fix my car-but all you did was hit the cylinder with a hammer!"-OK,new bill "To hit cylinder with hammer,$1;to knowing where to hit $399". But that is nowhere near transparency ,either-even if it's acceptable to get you out of Death Valley.

george

[baldie]

Basically, what you guys are after, is what a moderator costs at trade price really isn't it ?

 

You want to know how much the greedy, grabbing gun dealers are making dont you ?

 

 

Dont hold your breath....its not called a trade price for nothing.

[tackb]

Basically, what you guys are after, is what a moderator costs at trade price really isn't it ?

 

You want to know how much the greedy, grabbing gun dealers are making dont you ?

 

 

Dont hold your breath....its not called a trade price for nothing.

 

well i wouldn't mind knowing to be honest but i do run my own business and understand that without a profit you won't last long so it would be purely for intrest to me and any future mod purchases would be on the same grounds as always 'will i pay that for that ? '

 

at the end of the day you don't HAVE to sell it to me and i don't HAVE to buy it from you , isn't that how business has always worked?

[Danpd]

Basically, what you guys are after, is what a moderator costs at trade price really isn't it ?

 

You want to know how much the greedy, grabbing gun dealers are making dont you ?

 

 

Dont hold your breath....its not called a trade price for nothing.

[/quote

 

It's alright Dave. I'll tell them, I've got a Jacksons price list somewhere underneath all the gold bars on my workbench.....

[gbal]

Basically, what you guys are after, is what a moderator costs at trade price really isn't it ?

 

You want to know how much the greedy, grabbing gun dealers are making dont you ?

 

 

Dont hold your breath....its not called a trade price for nothing.

 

Dave,

I actually don't want to know what the 'trade price' is. I was more interested in the claims that some great extras were in (all) cf mods that were not in rf mods- and some mega R&D was needed (to me,naively,to reinvent some already quite good working wheels-though I appreciate that competitors can't just be copies,if there is some patent).There just got to be an awful lot of posturing about the price of steel,etc and some plain silly 'analogies'.At least you implied an 18% margin-perhaps not enough.But no-one seemed willing to grasp the point-of course you can spend £1000s on a rare figured wood stock,hand carved,and even hand lumbered from virgin oriental forests,but that isn't relevant to asking about the price of a grodas,or some competitor.I'm off to Switzerland-maybe they will have some info on engineering a cheap SIG!

george

[dannywayoflife]

Splendid! Having seen one of the cheaper centrefire mods. on the market self-dissasemble last weekend and go flying down range I am firmly of the opinion that you get what you pay for. The shock of firing undid the small amount of thread that keeps the modules together and turned the user's rifle into a home made grenade launcher,

 

Alan

Hope he had grenade launcher on his ticket!

[baldie]

It all boils down to a moderators origin basically.

 

ASE and BR tuote , and A-tec are distributed by Jackson rifles in the UK.

 

Jacksons are a bloody brilliant company, they give a generous mark up on all their products to bona-fide dealers. I,m not going to disclose either the profit margin , or the trade prices, but i,m happy with them. They are not silly, and the customer isn,t being robbed when he pays the RRP.

These aforementioned companies are huge, global manufacturers, with the machinery and capability of bulk manufacture, with the associated bulk buying power that comes with that, hence being able to sell to a wholesaler, then a retailer, and everyone make a profit and living from the said item.

 

Centrefire moderators have to be built from better quality steel, and with more complicated processes than a rimfire moderator, which can basically be made from any grade aluminium you have hanging about. They dont gas cut the same, nor are they handling the same pressures, plus they are considerably smaller, and also every rimfire in use has one fitted [virtually ] The market is vast compared to centrefire mods.

The sak has already been mentioned. That would take maybe a couple of minutes on a cnc to churn out, and the material would be cheap, and its simply in two halves.

Then look at a Jet-z fullbore mod, with its labyrinth baffles, and segmented, then welded construction.......different kettle of fish entirely.

I know Craig at Third eye, had to upgrade the stainless steel inserts in his , because he felt they were gas cutting unduly quickly. Strip one of those down and have a look at the hours he,s put into them, and the simply outstanding quality of the workmanship.

 

Regarding R + D , have a look on this site, then tell me a mod is just a tube with a few washers in.

 

http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/index.php

 

The simple answer is, as Tack has already said, if you dont think the product is worth it....then dont buy it. Its your money after all guys.

 

Just to illustrate a point, the Jet-Z is one of the most expensive on the market these days, i think the RRP is currently £336. I must sell 3 a month of them, plus all the A-tecs and T8,s , and i,m only a very small going concern. If people didn,t rate them, they wouldn,t buy them.

[darkstar66]

Ok Guys!

 

Well we can see that this is indeed a sensitive subject but i am struggling to see why?

 

There are some extremely good points to take in to account from this, safety and build quality are paramount to anything else but i must stress does this warrant the cost.

 

Several members seem to have taken this very personally not once have i suggested making a moderator in fact without the necessary skills, permits etc its downright dangerous.

 

I have not pointed the finger at anyone at any point.

 

My original question still stands unanswered and now im adding another aided by another members comment (gbal), transparency would be nice too! Im fully aware that peoples businesses are involved here and i would happily hand over £250 for a moderator that has been hand made by someone who is passionate about the sport and is dedicated to the safety of shooters in fact it would be money well spent! onelesscharlie i have also seen your work and am very impressed and if i lived near i would love to see your workshop as this type of engineering is close to my heart indeed.

 

So again i ask, who has the figures? Who actually knows how much is marked up? Like mentioned before the shooting community is small here in the uk but is that not a perfect excuse to support each other?

 

Before i receive more flak im not pointing the finger, would happily pay more for independent custom rifle work/mods and support safe shooting and believe anyone who knocks up poor mods/modifications are endangering the sport.

[darkstar66]

It all boils down to a moderators origin basically.

 

ASE and BR tuote , and A-tec are distributed by Jackson rifles in the UK.

 

Jacksons are a bloody brilliant company, they give a generous mark up on all their products to bona-fide dealers. I,m not going to disclose either the profit margin , or the trade prices, but i,m happy with them. They are not silly, and the customer isn,t being robbed when he pays the RRP.

These aforementioned companies are huge, global manufacturers, with the machinery and capability of bulk manufacture, with the associated bulk buying power that comes with that, hence being able to sell to a wholesaler, then a retailer, and everyone make a profit and living from the said item.

 

Centrefire moderators have to be built from better quality steel, and with more complicated processes than a rimfire moderator, which can basically be made from any grade aluminium you have hanging about. They dont gas cut the same, nor are they handling the same pressures, plus they are considerably smaller, and also every rimfire in use has one fitted [virtually ] The market is vast compared to centrefire mods.

The sak has already been mentioned. That would take maybe a couple of minutes on a cnc to churn out, and the material would be cheap, and its simply in two halves.

Then look at a Jet-z fullbore mod, with its labyrinth baffles, and segmented, then welded construction.......different kettle of fish entirely.

I know Craig at Third eye, had to upgrade the stainless steel inserts in his , because he felt they were gas cutting unduly quickly. Strip one of those down and have a look at the hours he,s put into them, and the simply outstanding quality of the workmanship.

 

Regarding R + D , have a look on this site, then tell me a mod is just a tube with a few washers in.

 

http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/index.php

 

The simple answer is, as Tack has already said, if you dont think the product is worth it....then dont buy it. Its your money after all guys.

 

Just to illustrate a point, the Jet-Z is one of the most expensive on the market these days, i think the RRP is currently £336. I must sell 3 a month of them, plus all the A-tecs and T8,s , and i,m only a very small going concern. If people didn,t rate them, they wouldn,t buy them.

[darkstar66]

Baldie,

 

I would be careful what you suggest as any old aluminium is not what any moderator should be made of, im an aircraft engineer and have a fairly grounded knowledge on metallurgy. Aluminium comes in limitless guises from 2024t3 for certain aircraft components to ally so soft it can be moulded by hand! Not suitable for mod construction.

 

To downplay the r+d and materials used in the construction of r/f moderators is a bit dismissive and off hand i think?

 

As for people stating expensive costs of steel, its not gold were talking about and if bought in bulk is not a justifying cost to the end user. Plus as stated before they are mass produced........... i also did not suggest anything about washers, if you know of any moderator that is hugely different from a tubular design i would like to see it! Triangle would be awesome!

 

Im really thankful for everyones input and have taken it all in a massively positive way. My only regret is that we are not doing this face to face as it would be brilliant to talk to you all, as a new fullbore member it would be an amazing benefit.

 

But back to the question, anyone have factual figures?

[darkstar66]

It’s interesting to see both sides of the argument.

 

Darkstar66 the cost of laptops plus R&D etc is not really relevant since the market warrants such expenditures and will still return a healthy profit due to the sheer numbers sold.

The shooting fraternity in the UK is tiny and would not support such extravagance.

 

Hatzi surely the cost of a CNC machine is less relevant than you make out since it would not be purchased to produce moderators exclusively. They are expensive and a sound business case would have been established. Also the purchase cost can be ameliorated through standard accounting practices. E.G Third Eye use CNC to produce mods...but that’s just a sideline for their machines, not a primary purpose.

 

ATB

 

An interesting point achosenman and i take on board that my laptop comparison is a little unrelated so please let me counter with another.

 

An Air Arms S400 can be picked up brand new for £399 is is extremely well designed, infinitely more complex, built on a much smaller scale than some main mod maufacturers and will last many more shots than an ASE and live longer that two years. Built here in the uk to boot and probably has more red tape involved in regards to regs etc than santa at this time of year.

 

I think this is a very good contrast

[Chris]

It all boils down to a moderators origin basically.

 

ASE and BR tuote , and A-tec are distributed by Jackson rifles in the UK.

 

Jacksons are a bloody brilliant company, they give a generous mark up on all their products to bona-fide dealers. I,m not going to disclose either the profit margin , or the trade prices, but i,m happy with them. They are not silly, and the customer isn,t being robbed when he pays the RRP.

These aforementioned companies are huge, global manufacturers, with the machinery and capability of bulk manufacture, with the associated bulk buying power that comes with that, hence being able to sell to a wholesaler, then a retailer, and everyone make a profit and living from the said item.

 

Centrefire moderators have to be built from better quality steel, and with more complicated processes than a rimfire moderator, which can basically be made from any grade aluminium you have hanging about. They dont gas cut the same, nor are they handling the same pressures, plus they are considerably smaller, and also every rimfire in use has one fitted [virtually ] The market is vast compared to centrefire mods.

The sak has already been mentioned. That would take maybe a couple of minutes on a cnc to churn out, and the material would be cheap, and its simply in two halves.

Then look at a Jet-z fullbore mod, with its labyrinth baffles, and segmented, then welded construction.......different kettle of fish entirely.

I know Craig at Third eye, had to upgrade the stainless steel inserts in his , because he felt they were gas cutting unduly quickly. Strip one of those down and have a look at the hours he,s put into them, and the simply outstanding quality of the workmanship.

 

Regarding R + D , have a look on this site, then tell me a mod is just a tube with a few washers in.

 

http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/index.php

 

The simple answer is, as Tack has already said, if you dont think the product is worth it....then dont buy it. Its your money after all guys.

 

Just to illustrate a point, the Jet-Z is one of the most expensive on the market these days, i think the RRP is currently £336. I must sell 3 a month of them, plus all the A-tecs and T8,s , and i,m only a very small going concern. If people didn,t rate them, they wouldn,t buy them.

 

Well I'm amazed that there is a forum just to talk about mods!!!

 

I knew there was one for dropped knockers but not mods

[David Hancock]

Darkstar let me put it like this. A moderator at £250 - OK so £8.50 for 20 cigarettes, £4,30 for a pint of Guinness, a three litre petrol car fill up at £110, 45 minutes of my divorce lawyers time is £250 and a trip to the dentist is never less than £200.

 

There's some pipe down the road at my local scrappie, I'm sure I could put some flutes in it.

 

Work out the math for a qualified engineer, respect the input these guys put in and how long a good moderator will last with the benefit it brings to your shooting.

[happyhunter]

Intresting thread. I got my jet-z ten-ish years ago with my first centrefire for about £270 I think, ASE made a few quid, my local RFD made a few quid, its a bit rough round the edges but to my ears works aswell as the day I bought it as i look after it. So in theory it's cost £27/year-cheap as chips, chips will also be "marked up" as the producer of them also has to make a living.

[22/250 foxer]

Intresting thread. I got my jet-z ten-ish years ago with my first centrefire for about £270 I think, ASE made a few quid, my local RFD made a few quid, its a bit rough round the edges but to my ears works aswell as the day I bought it as i look after it. So in theory it's cost £27/year-cheap as chips, chips will also be "marked up" as the producer of them also has to make a living.

 

I like the ase mods price of them have rocketed though. I think I paid 300 for one a year or so back. And it cost my rfd 250 at the time. I see it on the invoice in his work shop.not bad work 50 pound for signing it on my ticket )

[darkstar66]

Darkstar let me put it like this. A moderator at £250 - OK so £8.50 for 20 cigarettes, £4,30 for a pint of Guinness, a three litre petrol car fill up at £110, 45 minutes of my divorce lawyers time is £250 and a trip to the dentist is never less than £200.

 

There's some pipe down the road at my local scrappie, I'm sure I could put some flutes in it.

 

Work out the math for a qualified engineer, respect the input these guys put in and how long a good moderator will last with the benefit it brings to your shooting.

 

Hi David,

 

Im a little confused on your post as the contents have little or no relation on what we are discussing and if you read my previous posts i have no interest in scrap metal.

 

A good moderator will be guaranteed for two years.

 

Im very interested in your math, incorperating materials etc, like i have already posted.

 

I do respect the guys on here and have showed my appreciation in all info shared, are you telling me 'shut up and be told' perhaps?