Si-Snipe Posted November 20, 2011 Report Share Posted November 20, 2011 Hi guys Currently I have a Barnard SM action sat in an AI stock. I have recently had problems with the stock bolts coming loose. The only way the actions fits in without the bolt fouling on the stock at the back is by using a washer under the action where the bolt passes through. Twice now the bolts have come loose when I've been fine tuning my load and basically I have wasted the results 50 rounds later due to vertical stringing of the groups and shifting POI. Also I feel that the stresses on the action are probably not even. Without the washer I can nip up the bolts and easily flex the action enough to stop me pushing my bore-guide in as well as not being able to draw the bolt back !!! My local smith who is also a friend is going to bed it for me on Wed. He has suggested putting the washer in at the back to get the height whilst the bedding compound is moulded into shape by the action fit into the stock in the usual way which would leave the action in the correct position/height in relation to the stock. Can anyone who has bedded AI stocks especially to correct this issue please advise us if there are any points or improvements we could make to the job. It's going in on Tues. I'll feel much better knowing the stresses are reduced and even when tension is applied to the action bolts. I was also told 52 in/lbs was about the torque required for the action bolts. Any feedback greatly appreciated. Si Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aggy Posted November 20, 2011 Report Share Posted November 20, 2011 Hi guys Currently I have a Barnard SM action sat in an AI stock. I have recently had problems with the stock bolts coming loose. The only way the actions fits in without the bolt fouling on the stock at the back is by using a washer under the action where the bolt passes through. Twice now the bolts have come loose when I've been fine tuning my load and basically I have wasted the results 50 rounds later due to vertical stringing of the groups and shifting POI. Also I feel that the stresses on the action are probably not even. Without the washer I can nip up the bolts and easily flex the action enough to stop me pushing my bore-guide in as well as not being able to draw the bolt back !!! My local smith who is also a friend is going to bed it for me on Wed. He has suggested putting the washer in at the back to get the height whilst the bedding compound is moulded into shape by the action fit into the stock in the usual way which would leave the action in the correct position/height in relation to the stock. Can anyone who has bedded AI stocks especially to correct this issue please advise us if there are any points or improvements we could make to the job. It's going in on Tues. I'll feel much better knowing the stresses are reduced and even when tension is applied to the action bolts. I was also told 52 in/lbs was about the torque required for the action bolts. Any feedback greatly appreciated. Si Are the current AI guns not glued perminantly to the ally chassis .bedding without the release agent ? Sorry not shot mine enough to comment if anything works loose mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowz Posted November 20, 2011 Report Share Posted November 20, 2011 I'm not an expert but the way I have read your post it makes it sound as if the gunsmith is also unsure the correct way to bed the action to the AI stock. If so I would hold off untill you speak to or find a riflesmith who can advise or do it instead. Better to get it right the first time than have to correct after and pay twice. There's a few on here who I'm sure will offer advice and services who know best Atb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Si-Snipe Posted November 20, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 20, 2011 I'm not an expert but the way I have read your post it makes it sound as if the gunsmith is also unsure the correct way to bed the action to the AI stock. If so I would hold off untill you speak to or find a riflesmith who can advise or do it instead. Better to get it right the first time than have to correct after and pay twice. There's a few on here who I'm sure will offer advice and services who know best Atb The gunsmith who is looking to do it is not the original smith who did the rifle. The guy who is going to do it knows his stuff but as always I like to feel out a few ideas in case there is any tips to bedding a full alu block with the Barnard SM action. Thanks, Si Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baldie Posted November 20, 2011 Report Share Posted November 20, 2011 Take it to someone who knows what they are doing. By suggesting the washer be left in, your "gunsmith" obviously does not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davy Posted November 20, 2011 Report Share Posted November 20, 2011 The AI/AW has a 'washer' OK, a spacer between the receiver and the chassis to give the correct bond thickness when fitted at the factory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baldie Posted November 20, 2011 Report Share Posted November 20, 2011 This isn't an AI/AW Davy, its a remington footprint action sitting in a remington footprint AICS. A completely different thing. Unless this particular action is bedded absolutely correctly, a monumental ###### up will occur. Seen it several times, Barnards been bedded by people who dont know the action, or the stock. Again, take it to someone who knows what they are doing, or you will have a very costly mistake on your hands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
no bull Posted November 20, 2011 Report Share Posted November 20, 2011 Would the length of the pillars determine the correct height of the action in the stock ?. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowz Posted November 20, 2011 Report Share Posted November 20, 2011 Would the length of the pillars determine the correct height of the action in the stock ?. Don't think they have pillars just a complete ally chassis / block Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Si-Snipe Posted November 20, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 20, 2011 I was told by the original smith who's name will not be mentioned for obvious reasons that the Barnard actions in AI stocks need the rear raising on them as not to foul the stock. I was told that a 1mm washer is enough to prevent bolt fouling. Now with a quality rifle setup a washer lifting the rear is not exactly desirable nor does it inspire confidence in the setup. It needs sorting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Si-Snipe Posted November 20, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 20, 2011 Take it to someone who knows what they are doing. By suggesting the washer be left in, your "gunsmith" obviously does not. Dave from a non-experienced perspective - the rifle has been shooting extremely well for the last year/1500 shots, it had not been out of the stock. When I took it out I became aware of the washer and its role. What would be the harm in skim bedding the rear to negate the need for the washer and perhaps the bed around the recoil lug (providing it wasn't high enough to angle the action downwards)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brown dog Posted November 20, 2011 Report Share Posted November 20, 2011 I know nothing about AICS stocks - nothing! - Dave is your man for this. I'm trying to visualise an action raised by 1mm at the back, but not at the front - to my mind that tips the whole thing relative to the stock such that the recoil lug must not be sitting perpendicularly 'true' to its recess etc; I'd have guessed that that may cause the bolt to sometimed fail to pick up a round from the mag -but from what you've said that's obviously not the case. Can't visualise the action flex you're describing though. Anyway, just for reference / info on the way the AW does it - 4 x 0.8mm washers - and they're left in place in the epoxy. Nevertheless; I'd be going with Dave's advice - as he says, AW and AICS ain't the same thing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronin Posted November 20, 2011 Report Share Posted November 20, 2011 Get it bedded by someone who knows whay they are doing, It is totally unecessary to leave a "shim" in the rear tang. Ajustment of the action bolts is necessary. As a starter for ten...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunsgobang88 Posted November 20, 2011 Report Share Posted November 20, 2011 Hi, It makes no sense to just elevate one end of the receiver, it stresses everything and puts the recoil lug and action screws out of alignment with the chassis. The simple solution if possible would be to modify the stock to clear the bolt. If not, then some precisely made spacers (mini pillars) to support everything while a skim bedding job is done. The best approach would be to machine the chassis to give sufficient clearance for a full bedding job and full support to the receiver, Cheers Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest richness Posted November 20, 2011 Report Share Posted November 20, 2011 Hi, It makes no sense to just elevate one end of the receiver, it stresses everything and puts the recoil lug and action screws out of alignment with the chassis. ........... The best approach would be to machine the chassis to give sufficient clearance for a full bedding job and full support to the receiver, Cheers Alan Absopositively +1 on that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybrock Posted November 21, 2011 Report Share Posted November 21, 2011 Si, IMHO With you posting your question on here proves you haven't got confidence in your gunsmith to sort this problem for you, if it was me I'd politely tell your smith you have changed your mind and pass the job to someone who has had experience with this stock otherwise it could easily end in expensive tears. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BR 700 Posted November 21, 2011 Report Share Posted November 21, 2011 I had always assumed that the AICS didn't need bedding having dropped one action into a stock already, until a visit to Baldie's the other week to discuss build spec for a new project, He showed me just how far out the action and stock were so it's having the bedding treatment, maybe he can post some pics on here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baldie Posted November 21, 2011 Report Share Posted November 21, 2011 The main problem you have here Si, is that the action does not fit the stock correctly. The whole purpose of bedding a stock is to make it a mirror fit of the action, but far more importantly, its done to remove stress from the action. This is the main reason i dislike Barnards. They can be locked solid with an 1/8" turn on one of the action screws. That tells me there is too much flex in the action and/or the tolerances are simply too tight. The solution is to have the gun correctly bedded. I hate the term "skim " bedding. It might as well be called, " a bedding job done badly" because thats what it is. A skim bedding job still leaves the action sat on the original points of contact it made with the stock, and those points of contact imparted stress to the action, so why would you want to fill in around the stress with devcon, thus reinforcing it? The stock wants milling away so the action is sat on milled pillars. It wants the bolt slot milling deeper, as i suspect thats the reason for the washer being utilised now, and it wants a proper bedding job doing so as to relieve any stresses it now has.By a proper bedding job i mean a good depth of bedding material, with the only stock contact being the pillars. Done correctly that will remove the stresses, and negate the need for washer bodges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunsgobang88 Posted November 21, 2011 Report Share Posted November 21, 2011 Hi All, There is much talk here and in the US about 'stress free bedding', there is no such thing! As soon as you tighten any action screws this causes stress, this is what stops the barreled action falling out of the stock! A successful bedding job prevents these stresses from causing bending, warping or any other form of mis-alignment. The only alternative to this is a monolithic receiver or a bonded design as used in the AI/AW system or 'glued in' as used by serious benchresters, Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baldie Posted November 21, 2011 Report Share Posted November 21, 2011 When you can put a dial guage on a barrelled action that has been correctly bedded Alan, and the needle doesn,t move when the action screws are tightened/slackened, i think its fair to say that , that is what most people would regard as a "stress free" bedding job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunsgobang88 Posted November 21, 2011 Report Share Posted November 21, 2011 When you can put a dial guage on a barrelled action that has been correctly bedded Alan, and the needle doesn,t move when the action screws are tightened/slackened, i think its fair to say that , that is what most people would regard as a "stress free" bedding job. Hi Baldie, My point entirely! It should not move, it's just that stress free bedding is an imprecise term for a good bedding job that does not allow any movement as a result of applied stresses, Cheers Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest richness Posted November 21, 2011 Report Share Posted November 21, 2011 Lol listen to you two. pushing on an open door. Either one of you sound like you can be trusted to screw things together straight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taffy Posted December 8, 2011 Report Share Posted December 8, 2011 Had my 308 RPA bedded into an AICS. Whatever anyone tells you with these chassis is they need bedding to get the very best out of the rifle. Mine was done by PRS Ltd who like all his work was done brilliantly. Give Callum a call but don't say who told you as I know he abserloutly hates doing them as they are a real swine to get right. The problem is the stock is metal unlike a Mcmillan and you have to be ever so carefull how much metal to remove before applying the bedding. Good Luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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