Brass cleaning methods, who does what?

[craigyboy]

Brass cleaning is a thing thats has bugged me for some time. At the start I was just using a krazy cloth, neck brush and a primer pocket scraper, it seemed ok, then I got a tumbler and while the brass was shiny it did nothing inside and took ages getting the media out of the primer pockets and cases. At the minute I am on the ultrasonic cleaner, it is by far the best thing I have used the brass is spotless inside and out. I am starting to wonder however if its really worth the effort it was fun at the start but if you need to do 50 cases it takes ages, I do them in batches of about 15 so thats 3 runs, one run in water/viniger mix, i run in water baking soda and 2 runs in distilled water, all the runs go 8 minutes each and the first run is 16 minutes so it takes quite some time and back and forth to the cleaner I think its maybe a bit crazy + it could get costly buying viniger and baking soda all the time, I might just go back to the first way I was doing it! What do you guys do? ps in case you cant tell I have just spent most of the day at it and i ma thoroughly sick of it.

[6ppc]

I tumble my brass then when it gets really past the point of cleaning up in the tumbler it gets run through the ultrasonic.

[Wsm]

I tumble my brass then when it gets really past the point of cleaning up in the tumbler it gets run through the ultrasonic.

 

Doesn`t anyone make a reasonably priced ultrasonic cleaner thats big enough to take say 100 rounds at a time ?

[ds1]

I used to tumble and tried the ultrasonic thing - too much time for a small amount of cases. At the moment I first deprime and dip the cases in Birchwood Casey cleaning solution - it does bugger all to clean the dirt but loosens it. Rinse and let the cases dry. After that I stick them in the tumbler with Lyman Ceramic media. The stuff they use for molly bullets. It is expensive but last and last, cleans inside the case and the primer pockets, inside the necks are clean. It seems more consistent than ultrasonic cleaning, although my ultrasonic unit is small and crappy.

 

Pros, can clean a lot of cases at ones, dont need to clean the media very ofeten - a wash in detergent seems to be ok. Last for ages.

 

Cons, bloody expensive and heavy so you need a good tumbler to do the job. Cleans inside cases and the primer pockets better than the outside of cases, but I have never needed to clean the outsides with something else.

 

Only used it on 6.5mm cases and bigger, the bigger the diameter the easier it is to get the media out after.

 

Need to make sure nothing is left in the case, not a nice thought a bit of ceramic going down the barrel. I might stop using this method because of that.

 

FWIW I have ceramic media being used by am arms manufacturer to polish barrels, mags and other bits.

[v-max]

I tumble mine got an ultrasonic but dosent do enough cases for my liking.I tumble more too help with cases in the dies & also maybe slightly benifits the accuricy.

[Redfox]

Like everything you get what you pay for, to do a reasonable number of cases you need 100watts or more, I have a 300 watt unit and a 100watt one. the 100 will do 50 cases in around 20-30 mins.

Messing with vinegar is a waste of time and the baking soda is not necessary no wonder its taking so long. Use a proper ultrasonic cleaner concentrate and rinse in hot water in jug is all thats needed and the cases then dry quickly too. Takes me no time at all to do mine, I dont even think about it now. Consistency is what gets you to accuracy and using clean cases is just another step towards consistency. When you use factory ammo you are using a new clean case every time! , think about it.

There are various US cleaning solutions on sale just use a non acidic one and you will be surprised how much quicker it is, mine lasts a fair while and a £5.00 ish bottle lasts me 12 months.

Redfox

[craigyboy]

Thanks for the tip Redfox, I will look into it, I thought the method i was using seemed like a bit of a rigmarole, I didnt even know there was such a thing as ultrasonic concentrate.

[ejg223]

Has anyone tried a quarz sand in a tumbler ?

Fine enough not to clog flash hole.

edi

[Finman]

Hi Craig,

 

i think i have written the same advice on this before. Clean cases is something I like and was annoyed for a long time that I could not have them in a condition that i was happy with for a long while. Tried all the crazy cloth and the like techniques, but, reading the Varmint Hunter website gave me an idea (tips from the experts) which was later confirmed by my gunsmith (and good friend) Mike Norris, who built my 6mmBR. Using this technique, I get really clean (inside out) cases and in bulk.

here it goes: go to your favourite supermarket and buy Cillit Bang grime remover. Remove the nozle (or you will be squirting foam for hours!) and pour a 1:5 solution of cillit bang:water. Drop your cases in and leave them overnight (or for 3-4 hours at least). Take out of solution and rinse thoroughly. Put in oven (150 degrees C) for 10 or so minutes. Let them cool and then tumble.

 

End result: clean cases (I have done up to 150 at a time), including the primer hole (which may need a bit of a touch up with a bit of wire wool, if your uniforming tool does not take all the remnants of grime anyway). This works also particularly well when you resizing cases, as you don't need to wipe the lubricant off, just drop them in the solution and follow the steps above.

 

Ultrasonic cleaners sound very interesting and indeed may do the job sooner than the method above, but, where's the fire? I prepare a load of cases and then load them at my leisure. Although the way it's going at the minute, I doubt that I will be able to do much shooting for the next year or so... Currently stranded in Belfast, with flybe unable to fly due to fog...

 

best wishes,

 

Finman

[Redfox]

Cillit Bang is acidic, thats why it cleans well, it should not be used on cartridge cases as it leaches out the zinc in the alloy making them weak, also toasting them in the oven at 150 C ( how do you know the temp as oven stats are as accurate as weather forcasting, occasionally somewhere near!) will anneal the main part of the case which is deliberately left harder to give strength and ensure "spring back" after firing for easy extraction. Vinegar is Acetic Acid and will also weaken the brass if used strong and often.

The NRA USA recommended a 5% solution with a detergent added ( although again you are mixing acid and alkaline!!! with most soaps, but at least it isnt strong.

Craigyboy we did this a while ago and I gave the part number for the RS Components supplied alkaline ultrasonic concentrate which is designed for Brass and Aluminium cleaning and removes carbon, cheap to buy and economical, they have an online shop too. There are various one sold by reloading firms too which I would imagine work well also.

Think safety, a few bob saved could take your sight or worse.

There are at least three of us on here with engineering backgrounds and knowledge and we will always try to help, to ensure we all continue to enjoy varminting safely.

Good shooting.

Redfox

[ejg223]

We use quite a bit of Ultrasonic concentrate at work with our

sonic baths at 80 centigrade. For a while we have been using

Tickopur TR13 which is alkaline. The product information

mentions to be carefull with products containing zinc.

The concentrate they recommend for brass and other metalls is

acidic pH-1.5 (Tickopur J 80 U). But soaking is short, only between 30 sec. and 3min.

Other acicid versions that they market are not recomended for brass.

 

I'd say don't go by acidic or alkaline, rather use something like redfox said,

that is made for brass.

Just good to know the pH value so that one can neutralise better.

 

edi

[craigyboy]

Redfox, can I ask your opinion on what cleaner woudl work better, I found the post you made and on the RS website they say its discontinued so I am looking for an alternative

 

I was thinking one of these

 

appolo

 

RS

 

rs

 

rs

 

which in your experience would you go for? Your help is much appreciated. Thnaks

[JMS Arms]

Redfox, can I ask your opinion on what cleaner woudl work better, I found the post you made and on the RS website they say its discontinued so I am looking for an alternative

 

I was thinking one of these

 

appolo

 

RS

 

rs

 

rs

 

which in your experience would you go for? Your help is much appreciated. Thnaks

I agree with redfox

you get what you pay for i do all case prep first so if i have any lube on the cases it will be removed in the ultrasonic tank.

my unit will do 200 + cases in 3 mins. i do triggers , actions , mags, bolts and most inpotant mods. i think its a 2000 watt unit. you guys are right you must use the right chemicals. Ive screwed up a few times

[Redfox]

You can use 198-4921 it also works well, just play with the dilution to see what works best ( I heat the water/ mixture myself it works much quicker then, this is also a carbon etc remover and should be fine, a bit cheaper too http://rswww.com/cgi-bin/bv/rswww/searchBr...mp;cacheID=ukie.

I will try some myself when my other stuff runs out.

Redfox

PS just come across this it looks to be spot on and is a uk company despite the dollar prices, http://www.coleparmer.co.uk/catalog/produc...asp?sku=0880137

[craigyboy]

thanks for your help redfox, much appreciated, I worry about these things far too much, its nice to have a bit of advice from someone who actually has experience with the process.

 

Thanks

[Andrew]

I use super-fine steel wool and give each case a quick wipe before running them into the sizer die. They don't come out shiny, but the grits removed and that's the point.~Andrew

 

PS: I have a huge drum-type tumbler any of you folks can have if you'll pick it up!

[ds1]

Hi Andrew,

 

PM sent

 

David.

[Finman]

Hi Redfox,

 

thanks for the response. It has been quite a while since, but I have been travelling and had some computer problems as well, so please accept my apologies for the delay in responding to your message. Yet, I am not sure that I agree with you:

 

a) I have been using this method for the last year or so and since, I have had my 6mmBR cases loaded 5 times, my 6.5x55 cases 3 times and my 204Ruger cases loaded 4 times and have had no losses (prior to these methods I used to get split necks particulalry with the rubbish Hornady cases from the 204Ruger rounds).

 

the temperature of 150c will anneal brass.... if you leave it for 3 hours. Additionally, a crucial step in annealing is a rapid cooling which will 'freeze' the crystaline structure of the metal in its heated state, reinstating the pre-firing state (i.e. as they came from the factory). In the method that I am using the rounds cool on their own with no interference from me (i.e. I am not cooling them by dipping them in the water). A very interesting paper on the matter is available at Varmint Al's page (http://www.varmintal.com/arelo.htm#Anneal), which actually analyzes the dangers that you are correctly pointing out.

 

c) the solution is very very weak (see also http://www.varminthunter.org/index2.html, 'tips and tricks' sectionl, contribution by LP Brezny; for a further write up of this method)

 

For all it matters, I stick by this method as the fastest and easiest to clean brass in bulk. I have had no losses, I know of others, quite respectable shooters who shoot in volume high power (300WinMags etc) rounds, who also use this method and report no errors. It is from these more experienced shooters that I have learned and so far not much has gone wrong. Perhaps one day I shall be able to afford an ultrasonic cleaner and the time to use it.

 

best wishes,

 

Finman

[Redfox]

Just a quick correction. Copper and its alloys ( brass) and also aluminium are also annealed by cooling to room temperature naturally, not quite as fast as quenching in water and the oxide is not removed, but annealed nonetheless. This is mentioned in the article you quote and in fact results in a weaker grain structure which is more dangerous!

Redfox

[Finman]

Indeed, it is so. But what temperature does it have to be heated up to in the first place? I am sure it is more than 150C, and this temperature is crucial for the annealing process to begin (I checked this with a racing engineer and metallurgist who works with alloys on MotoGP and formula 1 engines. As he was the chap who designed the pistons for the Audi Team Lemans car, I am sure I can trust his knowledge).

 

In any case, I am not going to split hairs on the subject, it is obvious that you have your opinions on the matter and your prefered way of doing things. It is different than mine, but I am yet to be convinced that it is better.

 

Best wishes,

 

Finman

[ds1]

Finman, all I can say is that I will be giving your cleaning in Cilit Bang a try - owt that makes cleaning brass less of a pain is worth a try. Thanks for sharing.

 

David.

[Finman]

Hi David,

 

thanks for the message. Let me know what you think of this. Just remember to let the cases soak for a couple or three hours before drying and tumbling.

 

Best wishes

 

Finman

[Redfox]

I was for over 20 yrs until recently, a senior design engineer for one of the worlds larger companies, so have a fair idea what I'm talking about.

Oven stats as I have said before can easily be 20 -30 degrees out when new never mind when older and so you have no clear idea what temperature you are applying, but in anycase you do not need anywhere near that to quickly dry cases. 40-50 deg C is more than enough to dry them in 5-10 mins max. You do as you want to your own cases as its your rifle/head that is at risk, just dont advise others to do it

[Finman]

thanks for the message Redfox. I never disputed your knowledge. So that I know: is 150-180 degrees temperature for 10 or so minutes adequate to start the annealing process in a copper alloy? that is all I am asking. Additionally I did not advise anyone to follow my practice. I just shared it with the list. Whether they will follow it or not, it is their (informed) choice as well as responsibility.

 

best wishes,

 

Finman

[Redfox]

There are other factors in temperature control, such as overun, stat hysteresis etc, so in real terms the temp could easily run to over 200 deg and yes if you keep heating to those sort of temps the effect is cumulative.

Always glad to help

Redfox