221 rem or something simliar

dogfox1 · July 4, 2011

Hi,

Anyone playing with a 221 rem, what's the muzzle blast like, looking for something with reduced muzzle blast for close range work mainly for fox. Got all the long range stuff but something that will do the job close up without scaring everything away even with a T8 fitted.

Thought of a hornet but they seem to be very hit or miss, you either get a good one or another possibility is down loading a 222.

Years ago we all used 22lr for close range foxes under 40 yds near the release pens, but as we know now this is now unacceptable.

Any idea's

Dogfox1

garyw · July 5, 2011

if you want something based on the 221 case go for a 20vartarg conjured up by TODD KINDLER, the 20 will out perfom the 221 as the parent case.if not go for 222 or similar.

gary

dogfox1 · July 5, 2011

if you want something based on the 221 case go for a 20vartarg conjured up by TODD KINDLER, the 20 will out perfom the 221 as the parent case.if not go for 222 or similar.

gary

Many thanks Gary for the response I have not looked at any 20 calibres so far, I will check it out. Initially I was looking for something small and with not too loud report to be used at probably at a max of 100 and 150 yds on the odd occasion, mostly close range.

First I thought of a 17HMR but decided on the basis of hearing all the reports of the ammunition quality slipping against that one.

Then there is the Hornet one hears reports of some new rifles will not group under 3 to 4 inches at 100, so forgot that one.

Just liked the idea of working on another project to fill this much needed role in the cabinet.

Dogfox1

SteveW · July 5, 2011

if you want something based on the 221 case go for a 20vartarg conjured up by TODD KINDLER, the 20 will out perfom the 221 as the parent case.if not go for 222 or similar.

gary

I had a 221 Fireball, that I had rebarrelled to a 20 Vartarg, both fantastic calibres, the VT is a great fun 20 cal, and the rifle that comes out to play more often than most.

Both are reasonable subdued when moderated, not sure they meet your requirement's though DogFox, another option maybe to make up some subsonic rounds for one of the rifles you already have.........unless you have a NEED for a new rifle

Steve

dogfox1 · July 5, 2011

I had a 221 Fireball, that I had rebarrelled to a 20 Vartarg, both fantastic calibres, the VT is a great fun 20 cal, and the rifle that comes out to play more often than most.

Both are reasonable subdued when moderated, not sure they meet your requirement's though DogFox, another option maybe to make up some subsonic rounds for one of the rifles you already have.........unless you have a NEED for a new rifle

Steve

I think I need another rifle really something light weight, my smallest rifle is a 22-250AI with a really heavy border barrel not really suitable for subsonic rounds or the role that I want to fill. Had been thinking of down loading a 222rem with 40grn BT's.

Also I saw Border barrels had a 221 reamer which save the need to order another reamer but not much in the 20 cal line.

SteveW · July 5, 2011

Also I saw Border barrels had a 221 reamer which save the need to order another reamer but not much in the 20 cal line.

Dasherman has the 20 Vartarg reamer :rolleyes:

kent · July 6, 2011

I think the reports of poor performing Hornets is due to sloppy chambering, consentricity of chamber seems to be critical. Cz make the American and the Varmint maybee the Lux in this calibre? The nice thing is CZ do not chamber barrel blanks the chamber is cut with the bore ensuring better concenricity. Mine is doing great but like you mention i was worried up until the day i shot it but at £650 brand new screwcut for the American including mounts how much can you loose? It moderates realy well but you could expect that with 10 0r 12 grns of powder and in time i will perhaps radically shorten the barrel to maybee 14-16", though i may be chicken and do it in stages over the chrono. If you look at pistol data for this calibre they are not a million miles away on velocity and it means a lighter more handy less nose heavy gun. Its sort of held its own for over 80 yrs as a calibre to still be chambered in new factory guns to this day, so i suppose they might have got something right

247sniper · July 6, 2011

Then there is the Hornet one hears reports of some new rifles will not group under 3 to 4 inches at 100, so forgot that one.

Dogfox1

I wouldnt write the Hornet off mate,they are so underestimated. My Hornet CZ527 would shoot 1/2 inch groups with fatory winchster ammo, and under an inch with anything else i fed it,

I now reload for it and on a calm day at 100yards can put in clover leaf sized groups all day long for fun. I can out shoot my mate with his .222 out to 200 yards when the conditions are good. ( from experience its the Rugers that shoot shite mate)

Hope this helps

Steve.

Andrew · July 6, 2011

I'll second the opinions about the Hornet... my CZ has been a sub MOA rifle from the first group. I agree about the Ruger's as well. My old Ruger Hornet was a 3 MOA rifle at best. Some factory ammo groups were 6 MOA.~Andrew

dogfox1 · July 6, 2011

Many thanks for the replies on the 22 Hornet, it seems the the CZ527 shoot well - a lot better than I expected. What bullets do you find shoot well, I must check out the ballistics and loads.

I must admit I do enjoy wildcat load development so I need think long and hard before I jump, still like the idea of the 221 or 20 vartarg or possibly a small 17 cenrefire of some sort.

What velocities can you get down to while retaining reasonably accurate loads with the 20 vartarg. ( not talking about subsonic or low velocities), just good soft loads to reduce muzzle blast.

One thing for sure is the fact I will not be using hot loads due to mainly short range work.

Dogfox1

kent · July 7, 2011

Many thanks for the replies on the 22 Hornet, it seems the the CZ527 shoot well - a lot better than I expected. What bullets do you find shoot well, I must check out the ballistics and loads.

I must admit I do enjoy wildcat load development so I need think long and hard before I jump, still like the idea of the 221 or 20 vartarg or possibly a small 17 cenrefire of some sort.

What velocities can you get down to while retaining reasonably accurate loads with the 20 vartarg. ( not talking about subsonic or low velocities), just good soft loads to reduce muzzle blast.

One thing for sure is the fact I will not be using hot loads due to mainly short range work.

Dogfox1

If its for short range ie up to 200 yds i don't see why you would want anything but a Hornet on vermin, why trouble yourself without gains? I can totally see the point in a .20 vartag etc if you were shooting 400+ and didn't want to go .243" etc say and get all the extra recoil and blast mind. The Hornet is fun, real fun and different to load for, the brass is thin and the rounds must be consentric. 46 grn RWS T mantle is the best bullet i have personally found thus far, you shoot it slower than say a 35 grn V-max but it totally outperforms the lighter offering on windage even at 100 yds and on drop as you get out further. The very best of it is around 700 loads from a pound of powder!Due to that small amount burnt its also very quiet. Think seriously you could have a whole gun for about the same cost as a lower grade custom barrel and spend the extra cash on the scope and a total shed load of ammo. I have only shot mine up to 225 yds presently and i doubt i am going to get correct expantion much further so i won't push it, hornet designeted bullets have thinner jackets than normall .222 stuff etc to help with these slower impact velocities. consider it, just don't but a Ruger

Andrew · July 8, 2011

If its for short range ie up to 200 yds i don't see why you would want anything but a Hornet on vermin, why trouble yourself without gains? I can totally see the point in a .20 vartag etc if you were shooting 400+ and didn't want to go .243" etc say and get all the extra recoil and blast mind. The Hornet is fun, real fun and different to load for, the brass is thin and the rounds must be consentric. 46 grn RWS T mantle is the best bullet i have personally found thus far, you shoot it slower than say a 35 grn V-max but it totally outperforms the lighter offering on windage even at 100 yds and on drop as you get out further. The very best of it is around 700 loads from a pound of powder!Due to that small amount burnt its also very quiet. Think seriously you could have a whole gun for about the same cost as a lower grade custom barrel and spend the extra cash on the scope and a total shed load of ammo. I have only shot mine up to 225 yds presently and i doubt i am going to get correct expantion much further so i won't push it, hornet designeted bullets have thinner jackets than normall .222 stuff etc to help with these slower impact velocities. consider it, just don't but a Ruger

I have cleanly killed rabbits and prairiedogs at 275 yards with my CZ Hornet using 35 grain V-Max and my favorite "cheapo" bullet, the Midway "Dog Town" 34 grain HP. Learning the wind and drop is the bugger-boo in longer range Hornet shooting. Luckily, I have the opportunity to shoot a LOT of 22 Hornet! ~Andrew

kent · July 8, 2011

I have cleanly killed rabbits and prairiedogs at 275 yards with my CZ Hornet using 35 grain V-Max and my favorite "cheapo" bullet, the Midway "Dog Town" 34 grain HP. Learning the wind and drop is the bugger-boo in longer range Hornet shooting. Luckily, I have the opportunity to shoot a LOT of 22 Hornet! ~Andrew

I am not having the best of sucess with the 35 grn v-max, though presently only shot it a little, with factory just to try it and harvest the brass. Did you not find the CZ did better with 45 grn bullets? I ran the data on quicktarget and it appears to have no extra use on trajectory even though it starts faster it looses it quicker, windages are appaling compared with other Hornet pills it seems. It gets pretty wild up here so ability in wind carries over everything! 35 grns of lead is going to do serious harm to quarry the size of rodents though expand or not i supose? My thoughts towards reliable expantion were more aimed at fox to be fair. Yeah i am lucky in regards of the shooting i can do also its just a pain sat here when you have a load of handloads to test and theres a tricky wind blowing

Andrew · July 8, 2011

I am not having the best of sucess with the 35 grn v-max, though presently only shot it a little, with factory just to try it and harvest the brass. Did you not find the CZ did better with 45 grn bullets? I ran the data on quicktarget and it appears to have no extra use on trajectory even though it starts faster it looses it quicker, windages are appaling compared with other Hornet pills it seems. It gets pretty wild up here so ability in wind carries over everything! 35 grns of lead is going to do serious harm to quarry the size of rodents though expand or not i supose? My thoughts towards reliable expantion were more aimed at fox to be fair. Yeah i am lucky in regards of the shooting i can do also its just a pain sat here when you have a load of handloads to test and theres a tricky wind blowing

In truth, I have shot 46 gran Winchester hollowpoint bullets at 2850 fps and they shot fairly well but have proven too heavily constructed for prairiedogs. They do destroy large rabbits. As to the wind. I live in Montana and the winds here are a norm, not an occurrence! I have simply learned the wind and pay strict attention to it. The Hornet is a very drifty round regardless of the bullet weight but if you shoot it enough, you learn to compensate for it.

I have only shot one box of Hornady 35 grain VM and it gave 3/4" groups which is odd because my handloads with the same components shot group half that size. I don't shoot the fox we have around here as they cause me no harm (we have ample ringnecks in despite of them) but I would shoot a coyote at 150-200 yards with my 35 grain loads without to much hesitation. A rancher friend of mine routinely does just that with no problems.~Andrew

kent · July 8, 2011

In truth, I have shot 46 gran Winchester hollowpoint bullets at 2850 fps and they shot fairly well but have proven too heavily constructed for prairiedogs. They do destroy large rabbits. As to the wind. I live in Montana and the winds here are a norm, not an occurrence! I have simply learned the wind and pay strict attention to it. The Hornet is a very drifty round regardless of the bullet weight but if you shoot it enough, you learn to compensate for it.

I have only shot one box of Hornady 35 grain VM and it gave 3/4" groups which is odd because my handloads with the same components shot group half that size. I don't shoot the fox we have around here as they cause me no harm (we have ample ringnecks in despite of them) but I would shoot a coyote at 150-200 yards with my 35 grain loads without to much hesitation. A rancher friend of mine routinely does just that with no problems.~Andrew

Thats interesting that you can re-load the 35's so much better than they shoot as factory, i plan on giving them a whirl as handloads before i give up on them - but 3/4" is better than i am getting with them in factory by about double as good. Are the Winchester 46's made for the hornet or other .22 cf i have read much talk of jacket thickness differences giving poor results using std .22 cf bullets you see. Yep wind reading isn't optional round here either, never been to Montana personally but a mate used to fish there it looks great but very different from here we get loads of rain and its a mix of heather grouse moor and heathland mainly (oh and lots of sheep)

Andrew · July 9, 2011

Thats interesting that you can re-load the 35's so much better than they shoot as factory, i plan on giving them a whirl as handloads before i give up on them - but 3/4" is better than i am getting with them in factory by about double as good. Are the Winchester 46's made for the hornet or other .22 cf i have read much talk of jacket thickness differences giving poor results using std .22 cf bullets you see. Yep wind reading isn't optional round here either, never been to Montana personally but a mate used to fish there it looks great but very different from here we get loads of rain and its a mix of heather grouse moor and heathland mainly (oh and lots of sheep)

I believe firmly that the success in reloading is all in the technique with the Hornet. My friend and I have combined two lifetimes worth of Hornet experience and hammered out a decent system for loading the Hornet. Seems to work well for all that try it. I have been to the Highlands and it gets dammmed windy up there. Reminded me of home! Love Montana. Only three gun laws.

1.) don't shoot the neighbor's livestock

2.) don't shoot the road signs

3.) don't shoot the neighbor unless he really has it coming! ~Andrew

247sniper · July 9, 2011

I believe firmly that the success in reloading is all in the technique with the Hornet. My friend and I have combined two lifetimes worth of Hornet experience and hammered out a decent system for loading the Hornet. Seems to work well for all that try it. I have been to the Highlands and it gets dammmed windy up there. Reminded me of home! Love Montana. Only three gun laws.

1.) don't shoot the neighbor's livestock

2.) don't shoot the road signs

3.) don't shoot the neighbor unless he really has it coming! ~Andrew

Hiya guys, just a little outing last night and I thought I would share with you and hopefully it will help out on this topic. Re (.22 hornet)

Went out last night for a few hours last night with my young fella around one of our farms. Conditions were perfect for rifle shooting, with next to no wind/breeze, so we took the Hornet out as it hastnt been out for some weeks !

Started of with us taking a large blacked back gull out (Yes we are allowed to shoot them over here ) at 195 yards, we then took a nice sized bunnie out head shot at 145 yards.

We had a bit of difficulty as the crop was so high we could not really see the rabbits out running about, although they were probaly there!

We then spotted a bunnie from upon a high bank with the binos two fields away against a nice large solid bank, confirming it was a safe shot we ranged it at 215 yards, checked and adjusted my elevation adjustment using 'Ballistic FTE' on my ipod, and let one rip ! after seeing the red impact spray through the Bushnell we were rewarded with the flop/splatting noise a second or so later !

Me and the younger fella had a sit for 10 minutes or so, taking in the evening sun before making our way to colloect the rabbit, when we notied a crow spiraling around the rabbit we had shot 10 minutes ago. The crow probaly new we were there but obviously thought he was safe, he landed down and stared pecking away at my rabbit ! (cheeky fekker !) So redialing the Bushnell to the same elevation as before and sticking another home loaded V-Max up the spout, we let another one rip, once again rewarded by a puff of feathers and a splatting noise a second or so after .

Well that was our evening done and dusted, very plesant weather, my 7 yr old lads funny and ammusting company :lol: and rewarded by a straight bag with some excellent conecting shots at decent ranges too !

Hope you enjoyed the read guys, my only regret is that I forgot my camra... never mind theres alway next time

Ceers guys

Steve...... o and Jakey

247sniper · July 9, 2011