247sniper Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 Hiya guys, Please can you guys in the know help me. As per my other .204 Ruger post, On the Isle of man the police wont allow this calibre as there is no fox but there are just as much vermin, rabbits crows, greybacks and black backed gulls etc etc and we have mountain hare and the common brown hare would be the largest game. (No foxes apparantly only the odd apparent sighting!) The police seem to think that they are a rockcket launcher and they are so so powerful !! However I have followed BASC's advise and followed the correct approch for applying for on including a meeting with the firearms dept. The poilice say they are folliwing home office guide lines and since there is no fox there is no need for such a rifle. My arrgument is that a .204 is not on the home office guide lines, its not deer legal....so what is it for??? obviously for vermin and that it is safer when used correctly with hardly any chance of ricosheing like even the very low powered .22 LR. I have appealed on the polices dessicion and it looks like it will be going to court, I have all the ballistic data in my head as regards to the safety part but I need some real hard evedance that will be accepted in court on that it is a vermin cartridge UPTO fox sized animals. Where wolc I find this guys?? Help!!! I have got a .22 hornet and they will let me have a .17 rem or a firball, so dont see why on gods earth they wont let me have a .204 Ruger? If any one could possibly help me guys that would be great, this sort of thing with rifles and our local police has gone on to bloody long now and folliwing BASC's reconmendations someone needs to make a stand as to the police choosing what calibars we can and cant have, and with hopefully plenty of years of shooting in me yet, I have decided to go for it !!! But I could really do with some help guys MAny thanks Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gandy Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 I can't help as I'm not an expert but there have been articles in sporting rifle by solicitors who specialise in this kind of matter. There is also a chap who is heavily involved in BASC I'm sure his first name is john and he has an OBE, ex derbyshire police who could help. Very best of luck mate! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonevo Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 As a suggestion you could always try George Wallace from NGO National Gamekeepers Org he was an ex FEO and has quite alot of knowledge on these matters good luck and I hope the police take notice ACPO also made guidelines but unfortunatley the Police have not and do not listen to any ACPO suggestions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mack Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 It cost's the Police Authority a considerable sum of money to defend a decision in the Court, money they can't afford in these hard times unless they are 100% sure of their stance. In this case, common sense should prevail and I suspect you will find that if you 'stick to your guns', they will back down and grant your variation long before it reaches the Court. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
247sniper Posted February 19, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 It cost's the Police Authority a considerable sum of money to defend a decision in the Court, money they can't afford in these hard times unless they are 100% sure of their stance. In this case, common sense should prevail and I suspect you will find that if you 'stick to your guns', they will back down and grant your variation long before it reaches the Court. Lets hope so hey, I do beleave that I am totaly in the right here and what they are saying is only their opinion, witch does not carry much weight in court, only facts and figers. How do others see it, do you guys agree with what i am saying, i understand that a lot of other people in the uk have .204 for vermin control, not nesecceryly for fox control only, but for vermin control as well, and for the vermin that we have on the Isle of Man, i belive that this calibar should be allowed? Cheers guys Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Hancock Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 Steve, Speak to Mike Eveleigh, Head of Firearms at BASC 01244 573 000. He's very pragmatic. I have had .204 conditioned for vermin and fox by Suffolk, zeroing on my permissions and on a home office approved range. My FEO at the time had never heard of the calible so I used a paper from wwww.6mmbr.com and an article by Bruce Potts as part of my submission. Facts, not vague "oh I don't like that calibre". I set out the inherent accuracy of the calibre at ranges from 100 - 400 yards, the ability to effectively moderate the calibre in consideration of my own hearing (Health and Safety) and for consideration of the general public on those permissions near urban areas, together with the ability to use frangible ammunition ie reducing the potential for richochet and shoot through. Ironically having just moved back to London from Suffolk, London Met have been very harsh in their opinion of Suffolk granting my .17HMR for fox. Ironic as they originally issued the Cert 7 years ago !!!! These forces really need to work to a common standard. Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alycidon Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 +1 for Mike Eversleigh at BASC, he also was a firearms manager I believe. BASC will help you in court as expert witness. I have 20BR conditioned for "shooting fox, vermin, ground game and for zeroing on ranges or on land over which the holder has lawful authority to shoot". I also have a 6PPC conditoned for fox and deer and zeroing on ranges etc. My FEO had not heard of 20BR so I had to send him info on it, even then he wanted to license it as a 204 Ruger !!. Get Mike involved, it wont get to court. A 17HMR is marginal on fox unless head shooting close up IMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sir-slots-alot Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 I have been down this route - and been in contact with Mike Eversleigh many times. The man will not provide any practical assistance to you and Neither will BASC. From my direct experience He told me to make a case for the calibre ( which I did ) - then he told me to write a letter of complaint when the police officially refused my objection against the decision. ( which I did ) Then he told me , I would have to "live with it as nothing could be done ... And BASC would not be prepared to go court to appeal this decision.... ( Basically your on your own ). BASC or Mike E - did not even make a phone call - or lift a pen on my behalf , at any time. And the final kick in the balls , was the last phone call I had with the pragmatic Mr Eversleigh, He even asked " why I would want to shoot rabbits with a centrefire rifle anyway , when I owned a rimfire " And this is from an organisation ( BASC ) which is based in my home county.... Needless to say I cancelled my membership with BASC Forever. Good luck with it mate ... but you will find that Mike Eversleigh wont win the battle for you --- if fact he wont even turn up for the fight. ATB Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
re'M'ington Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 Hiya guys, Please can you guys in the know help me. As per my other .204 Ruger post, On the Isle of man the police wont allow this calibre as there is no fox but there are just as much vermin, rabbits crows, greybacks and black backed gulls etc etc and we have mountain hare and the common brown hare would be the largest game. (No foxes apparantly only the odd apparent sighting!) The police seem to think that they are a rockcket launcher and they are so so powerful !! However I have followed BASC's advise and followed the correct approch for applying for on including a meeting with the firearms dept. The poilice say they are folliwing home office guide lines and since there is no fox there is no need for such a rifle. My arrgument is that a .204 is not on the home office guide lines, its not deer legal....so what is it for??? obviously for vermin and that it is safer when used correctly with hardly any chance of ricosheing like even the very low powered .22 LR. I have appealed on the polices dessicion and it looks like it will be going to court, I have all the ballistic data in my head as regards to the safety part but I need some real hard evedance that will be accepted in court on that it is a vermin cartridge UPTO fox sized animals. Where wolc I find this guys?? Help!!! I have got a .22 hornet and they will let me have a .17 rem or a firball, so dont see why on gods earth they wont let me have a .204 Ruger? If any one could possibly help me guys that would be great, this sort of thing with rifles and our local police has gone on to bloody long now and folliwing BASC's reconmendations someone needs to make a stand as to the police choosing what calibars we can and cant have, and with hopefully plenty of years of shooting in me yet, I have decided to go for it !!! But I could really do with some help guys MAny thanks Steve. Steve,I think your problem lies with BASC,they are getting you to go to court over the problem,if you went through SACS then they would be the ones taking the police to task on your behalf,sometimes I wonder why anyone would bother to spend the best part of £70.00 to belong to an organisation that is totally useless! rant over,and I have had a .204cal ruger on my cert that specified fox and vermin,and that is with the dreaded Avon and Somerset police.It is a splendid vermin round,and as far as I am aware is not mentioned in any of ACPO's guidelines,so they are making it up as they go along mate,join SACS and get it sorted. Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alycidon Posted February 20, 2011 Report Share Posted February 20, 2011 I have been down this route - and been in contact with Mike Eversleigh many times. The man will not provide any practical assistance to you and Neither will BASC. From my direct experience He told me to make a case for the calibre ( which I did ) - then he told me to write a letter of complaint when the police officially refused my objection against the decision. ( which I did ) Then he told me , I would have to "live with it as nothing could be done ... And BASC would not be prepared to go court to appeal this decision.... ( Basically your on your own ). BASC or Mike E - did not even make a phone call - or lift a pen on my behalf , at any time. And the final kick in the balls , was the last phone call I had with the pragmatic Mr Eversleigh, He even asked " why I would want to shoot rabbits with a centrefire rifle anyway , when I owned a rimfire " And this is from an organisation ( BASC ) which is based in my home county.... Needless to say I cancelled my membership with BASC Forever. Good luck with it mate ... but you will find that Mike Eversleigh wont win the battle for you --- if fact he wont even turn up for the fight. ATB Alan Now that is an eye opener and very dissapointing, Mike I think you sometimes get here, perhaps you could comment on BASCs stance on this type of issue. Shooting rabbits etc at long distance with centerfires is quite popular and sometimes the only way to control them. Who are SACS?. A Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duey Posted February 20, 2011 Report Share Posted February 20, 2011 SACS is the Scotish version of BACS and i have heard plenty in their favour and they are cheaper than BACS Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
247sniper Posted February 20, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2011 SACS is the Scotish version of BACS and i have heard plenty in their favour and they are cheaper than BACS Ian Cheers and thanks for your help guys so far, Does the SACS have guidlines like BASC? Cheers fella Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tony Posted February 20, 2011 Report Share Posted February 20, 2011 Contact George Wallace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baldie Posted February 20, 2011 Report Share Posted February 20, 2011 Would they condition a .222 or a .223 ? if they would, you have them by the spuds. The .204 is based on a .222 magnum, is sub calibre to both these, and uses an almost identical charge. If they will condition a .17 rem, they have no reason to not condition a .204.They are almost identical. If they will condition any .22 centrefire, they also have no argument. The cartridge belongs in the same family. If they wish to speak to a gunsmith with practical experience of all these cartridges, i would be willing to speak to them on your behalf. Forget BASC...waste of snap and bacca. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
247sniper Posted February 20, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2011 Would they condition a .222 or a .223 ? if they would, you have them by the spuds. The .204 is based on a .222 magnum, is sub calibre to both these, and uses an almost identical charge. If they will condition a .17 rem, they have no reason to not condition a .204.They are almost identical. If they will condition any .22 centrefire, they also have no argument. The cartridge belongs in the same family. If they wish to speak to a gunsmith with practical experience of all these cartridges, i would be willing to speak to them on your behalf. Forget BASC...waste of snap and bacca. Thanks for you reply fella, what do you think.... They will conditon .17 fireball, .17 remington and I already have a .22 hornet, are they classed as the same family?? Theyy will not condition .222 or .223 ! What do ya recon? Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigun Posted February 20, 2011 Report Share Posted February 20, 2011 i have the .204 for both fox and vermin ..tell them that you will be going over to the main land to shot your foxs and vermin with the .204 and vermin were you live ! it will be hard for them to say no then ..if you need a letter to say you have some were to shoot foxs get in touch with me, i will have you up for the nights shooting if need be. http://www.204ruger.com/forum/index.php?sid=24d1e7d2b38f98c6381710a2d9a62c96 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gandy Posted February 21, 2011 Report Share Posted February 21, 2011 I can't help as I'm not an expert but there have been articles in sporting rifle by solicitors who specialise in this kind of matter. There is also a chap who is heavily involved in BASC I'm sure his first name is john and he has an OBE, ex derbyshire police who could help. Very best of luck mate! Its, John Thornley OBE, to use a dirty word he is an elected member for BASC but is: Writer and legal consultant on countryside law, firearms and deer management. Former police superintendent, Derbyshire Constabulary and trained firearms tactical advisor. Chairman of the Deer and the Game Shooting advisory committees and member of the Gamekeepers advisory committee and the Executive and Finance committee. John is an Approved Witness for the Deer Stalking Certificate Level 2 qualification and also a member of the BASC trophy measurement team. Awarded the OBE in 2000 for services to the protection of wildlife. In addition, he is the ACPO representative on the Deer Initiative committee. Here is there website dont know if they will be able to help? http://www.parkes-thornley.webs.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(200x135).jpg.0fd0a94f065c6cb243fdff1b40e0819a.jpg)
.jpg.0972b4e2bdf0b5a4109eb96f2b1b62ad.jpg)
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.