Popsbengo

41 minutes ago, Calum Desert Tech said:

Hi Guys,

I'm looking for suggestions for a 6.5 creedmoor load and was wondering what everyone is using and having success with.

Thanks Calum

Hi Calum

Lapua small primer brass, CCI BR4 primers, Berger 144 Hybrid.   RS62 43.0 gr.  I load long (my ogive measure is only meaningful to my rifle), longer than would fit in a magazine.  Custom chambered 5R 30" Bartlein barrel.

Cheers

when you open the dialog box to post or reply to a message you will see a paperclip symbol and  "Drag files here to attach, or choose files..."

Do as it says, drag a picture file or select from a folder.   Best make sure the file is sensible size.

13 minutes ago, Tikktac said:

And that is what a lot of people do. I tend to stick within the margins of the manufacturers recommendations.

Th reason I am posting this is if you shoot on MOD ranges (as I do) and there is any kind if incident on the range The investigation will inculde your load data and if you are over the top load according to the current values you will be banned from MOD ranges and most likely Bisley since it's the NRA that is driving this following several incidents at Bisley. 

I agree with you.

NRA CoP para 10  Never exceed maximum loads given in hand loading data tables 

     10, c)  Do not exceed the maximum load given in hand loading data tables or the maximum load you have discovered for yourself.  Stick to CIP/SAAMI limits!

However, Vihtavuori are one source of data.  Other competent authorities may have tested on differing test rigs and achieved different maximum recommended numbers. Equally valid I believe.  I use Berger and Lyman manuals as well as powder manufacturers data.

I've never needed to exceed manufacturers limits to achieve good accuracy over 1000yds .308 or 2000yds .338LM.  Chasing MV at all costs seems unnecessary to me.

Any recommendations for a cheap but durable upper receiver vice block ?

Would I be right to think 'airsoft' AR uppers are similar to firearms enough to share a block ?

33 minutes ago, Triffid said:

I use range scrap. Typically it gives me about 12 BHN.

do you have a tester or is there a 'rule of thumb' method ?

Our club is in the Midland League for various competitions which included .22 bench rest.  Unfortunately not enough interest since Covid so now dropped.  It's a team of four event, shot over ten rounds. Ten shots on 10 targets (see below image), two cards shot per round, so a competition is aggregate score of twenty cards.  Marked and endorsed by the club and scores posted to the organisers.

The teams are put into divisions based on aggregate scores, the teams get moved up/down according to performance against peers.  Clubs can enter multiple teams.

My average score was  98.5 using a CZ455 thumbhole 16" barrel with RWS Rifle Match shooting off a front and rear bag. I think my team was a Div B (may have been C, can't recall).

That's a very generous sale price.   I'd have jumped at it but for already having a lathe.

Model engineers perfect tool.   Best of luck with it, someone's perfect Xmas prezzie

2 hours ago, Ralpharama said:

I am debating whether to buy a bushing die for my .338 or just use a mandrel die after using a regular die? BUshing dies for this caliber seem to be few and far between, even for ready money 🤣 

Any thoughts ?

I'm not going to open up the argument between Neck and Full because the world seems to be split with excellent arguments on both sides. As an engineer, I personally feel that neck sizing has the merit of not work hardening the whole case, only the bit that is regularly annealed.    

Redding bushing dies are available, and excellent quality.  Just watch out for the case-head swelling near the web, Redding dies aren't particularly 'small base'.  If I need to adjust the case from someone else's once fired brass I use a Hornady die which is pretty tight at the base.  I made a gauge (Big Al's advice) to test at 0.5" up from the head - .338 running 93 gr N570 really work the brass!

On 6.5CM I use a 21stC sizing mandrel to final size as it seems to give a touch better grouping, possibly due to neck tension optimisation (in my custom chambered Barnard Dolphin).  I can hold ~1/4 moa elevation at 1000yds.  Pity my wind reading is less than wonderful 😉

Tried mandrels with .338LM but no benefits realised at my usual >1000 distances.

1 hour ago, Ralpharama said:

I am about to get around to experimenting with the seating depth of the ELD-Ms fro my 6.5 Creedmoor and later on the their big brothers for the .338 Lap

I always do such development in an indoor 100yard range to eliminate wind issues and tend to use a bench rest to remove as move of my own incompetence from the recipe as possible.

In the past I have found that group size and minimum SD haven't seemed to go hand in hand. I have had amazing groups at 100 yards but the SD hasn't been the best and the best SD hasn't equated with the tightest group. 

WHat I don't know is which is the most critical. Does a tiny group at 100 necessarily equate to a similarly tiny group at 1000? Or does the minimal SD have more meaning at a long distance than a miniscule group at 100?

 

Firstly an SD from say five rounds is statistically highly suspect.  I'm not suggesting that's what your doing but it's not uncommon on shooting forums to get people claiming SD of groups of three to five shots !

Of course the less variation in muzzle velocity the better but to realise the benefit the barrel harmonics need to also be optimised.  If your bullets exit the barrel while it's 'off node' then variations down range are amplified.

Just to complicate matters, there's the effect of positive compensation where Mv variation and barrel harmonics work to reduce elevation errors at certain distances - Lee-Enfield .303 is the usual cited example.

Bullet stability isn't necessarily optimised at 100yds so groups may give false readings that are shown at greater ranges.

I zero .338 at 200yds as this seems to give me a better reading of my groups at long ranges.  Obviously this means outdoors however I've not experienced any problems at that range with wind on typical weather days.

31 minutes ago, Ralpharama said:

Being very mean (poor) I knocked up a brake using my own design. I usually make them in Stainless, but given this is a big mutha I thought I make a tester in alloy first. I tested it the other night and it makes a massive difference. I'll see about anodising it next. Milling the ports on my 'ickle mill was hard work, but would be twice five times as time consuming in stainless! I could take 2.5mm depth cuts in the ports in aly, but probably pushing my luck at 0.5 in 316SS . I'm hoping anodise will protect it sufficiently to get a good life out of it 😃

nice job

21 minutes ago, No i deer said:

I heard the other day the all 22lr ammo lapua make is going to the military for small arms practicing..

Federal primers are all going to military contracts..

None to the civilian market..

Rws,sellier and belliot and magtec are going to be the only primers to come into the UK.. 

How much of this info is correct I don't know..

Laurie may know more on this 🤔

Also Fiocchi primers were (are?) in stock at the Range Office Bisley

2 hours ago, RobinC said:

You think that's difficult, try taking Firearms there now!

Under the Theresa May deal we retained European Firearms Passes (EFP) but the nice Mr Johnson with the oven ready deal negotiated them out! But that was along with all the fishing rights, and just about every thing else, ...... 

Oh dear, you did not know about UPS? I  have purchased goods from Germany and the EU, and the worst and most problematic carriers I have ever experienced? Yup UPS.

A couple of examples.

A parcel sent to me from Germany that held normal goods, nothing at all to do with firearms, but sent from a German gun manufacturer, being sent to me. It was held on UK arrival (not UK customs, UPS do it on behalf of UK customs) for 6 weeks arguing they needed a firearms import licence, and this with out even opening the senders customs declaration stating what the contents were! After multiple phone calls from me and the sender, they eventually accepted an email from me stating they were not gun parts, and cleared the parcel. And they never ever opened the customs docs, they arrived to me on the out side of the parcel in a clear plastic envelope!!

They had also invoiced me and taken UK import duty with in a day of collection in Germany.  9 weeks later when the goods actually arrived after they also lost it in the UK, a week after I received it, they sent me a further invoice in the post for customs duty of........ 23 pence!!!! But at penalty of £100 if not paid!

After multiple phone calls, they first would not explain it, just said it was a legitimate customs charge, but eventually said it was because of the change in the exchange rate from when I paid, to the date it arrived to me!!!! And they only submitted the charge to UK customs after it arrived and the rate had changed so I owed them another 23 pence!

I opted for revenge and inconvenience to them, over legal action, and paid it in 23 one penny cheques, and sent recorded delivery to be signed for, and sent to their head office. My bank agreed it was a legal means of paying, and the cost was worth it for the hassle they would have had! 

And they cashed them as well!

I had the final laugh as well as when I told the sender about the final hassle they complained to UPS head office in Germany, and UPS just got officious and the sender cancelled their contract, they used DPH after that and my deliveries from Germany are excellent.

Have fun

Robin

 

 

Well Done ! 

I can confirm that an UPS are an equal opportunity courier - being a bag of crap delivering an Xmas parcel to me from my brother in the USA..

I've read through and not withstanding lead shot issues what else concerns you?

4 minutes ago, No i deer said:

.....I'd agree with pops...

Turn the mag down to 25

Problem is the eye relief on a high power scope is still comparatively poor on a lower mag setting. If it was me, I'd sell the S&B (plenty of takers) and get a ~ 25x FFP scope

1 hour ago, Ralpharama said:

Zeroed in my new (to me) Barrett 98B chambered in .338 Lapua last night. I was shooting on a bench using a Tier One FTR BiPod. The scope is a 12-50 x 56 S&B which has the flaw IMHO that one needs to get the Mk i eyeball pretty close to the scope to see a full picture. On my Sabatti .300WM, with my own home brewed muzzle brake, this wasn't an issue as there wasn't a whole load of recoil. I did talk to one of the sales lizards on the Schmidt stand about this oddity and asked what could be done and they seemed totally disinterested. It's my only posh scope and if funds ever permit I'm not sure I would be falling over myself to be passing my hard earned to a company with so little interest in customer issues.

The Barrett however seems to want to step back outside the range rapidly every time I squeeze the trigger. My grouping was non-existent as I was trying to protect myself from a dose of 'scope eye'. The brake is stock Barrett. I was surprised how light the rifle is, which I can only conclude is going to add to the recoil. I saw a chap at a shoot once who had extra weight attached to his chassis. There do seem to weights available, for  a pretty penny or three, but none see to have suitable fixings for the 98B. The ones I have seen said that they're made from nitrated mild steel, so it wouldn't be byond my wit to make some, though I would be more inclined to zinc plate with black passivate for longevity. 

There doesn't seem to much to the stock brake and I can't help thinking that it could be better. I have fired .338s before that did recoil anything like a strongly as this one. Any thoughts? 

My Dolphin chassis Barnard .338 seems tame enough, I have a Dolphin muzzle brake.  I too use a skid footed bipod and shoot off a board.  I do you want a 50x scope?  I think you may struggle to see hits or indeed misses at any extended range as the recoil will knock you off target and getting back on with high mag is a bugger.  I use a S&B PM2 FFP but at a maximum 26x mag.  I have absolutely no problem hitting out to 2000yds (all else being in control).  FFP also allows a quick and easy measure of my misses with a no-brain adjustment.  I love my S&B.

Any scope at 50x is going to have a micro eye-box, my Nightforce comp has as does my Delta Stryka.  No problems though as they're on .308 & 6.5 respectively. 

BTW, I would suggest zeroing at 200 if you can, it'll give you a better 'reading' of your groups.

2 hours ago, Re-Pete said:

I could never understand why so many shooters supported brexit..............it's made importing anything from Europe, a total pain in the arse...

As for "taking back control", that worked out well, didn't it?

Pete

Pete, I suspect the shooting community demographic and pro-Brexit demographic overlap substantially.   I think you and I are outliers on the Venn diagram.  Still, that nice Boris Johnson has proven what a jolly trustworthy and honest chap he is.   😏

58 minutes ago, Mike C said:

The following story is just an insight into the complexities of sending a Schmidt & Bender scope back to the manufacturer for a repair/service and subsequent return back to me the sender.

 

This is my own personal experience and just wanted to highlight two main points;

1) The outstanding level of service and professionalism from Schmidt & Bender over there in Biebertal, Germany.

2) The insufferable long and drawn out delays during it's journey.

 

This all started when a fellow member at my local shooting club put a list of items up for sale and one particular item that made me do a double take was that of a S&B PMII 5-25 x 56 FFP sat in a Sphur mono mount at a very reasonable if not too reasonable price. Consequently a phone call was made and we arranged to meet. It was clear after a quick inspection of the scope that the front objective lens had been damaged, and by that I don't mean scratches but damage to the special coatings applied during manufacture. The image was still clear when looking through it but I knew it should have been better. In any case I still ended up purchasing the scope and was pretty chuffed with the fact that I'd finally got myself a Schmidt & Bender PMII, even though it was 'impaired' and without it's original box.   

 

When I got home I was eager to compare it alongside a flawless Sightron Siii 8-32 which I had sat around doing nothing at the time. Having looked through both at various distances and objects the Sightron was a little clearer, but I was still pretty chuffed with the purchase.

 

I thought about getting the front objective lens swopped out locally but having spoke with a few people it seamed like the only correct way of doing it with such a high end scope was to see if Schmidt & Bender themselves could replace it.

So, late on a Sunday evening, I contacted Schmidt & Bender via email regarding replacing the front objective lens. I emailed over a few images of the lens at the same time. By 6.30am the following day I had a personal email back from a chap at Schmidt and he had looked at the images I sent and confirmed that the coating was damaged and that really it shouldn't make that much difference to the performance of the scope but also stated that if I wanted it replacing the cost for a new objective, resetting parallax and re-filling with nitrogen would be 200 euro's + freight NET.

 

He asked for the serial number which tells them everything about the scope's model, age, reticle (P3L) etc.. I agreed on the price and over a number of emails he then asked whether I would like to replace the reticle at the same time. This hadn't crossed my mind at the time but once he'd mentioned it I couldn't 'not' ask how much extra to replace with a more appropriate for me P4FL reticle.  

The cost for a new lens & reticle including freight was very reasonable indeed and I agreed and so their paperwork was started and a number of forms were filled in at my end and returned by email. It was just a case of popping it in the post, or so I thought!

 

Schmidt & Bender recommended using UPS as that was their preferred courier so I went online to start the process. When I've used UPS in the past to post in the UK I just take it down to my local off License which is a 'UPS Access point' where it gets scanned and taken off me, simple. Because this item was leaving the UK and entering the EU a CP72 form had to be completed and that's where the trouble starts. One has to go onto the government website in order to obtain the correct commodity code, these are an internationally recognized method for defining types of goods for customs purposes.

On searching our government website there is no other code one can use only to associate it as an optical part for a firearm. I wouldn't for one minute try and pretend it wasn't anything other than what it was and so I used the appropriate code. The problem came once payment was made and accepted, a pop-up box appeared on screen informing me that because of the type of item it would need to be taken to a 'UPS customer center', the nearest being some 36 miles away. Why the online system didn't inform me before I made payment I don't know.  It couldn't be cancelled for an immediate refund either but after contacting them by phone it was said that as long as the postage label didn't get scanned or used then the refund would be issued automatically within 14 days.

 

I decided to take it to my local post office instead the following day and post it the traditional way and actually speak to a person instead of a screen. It was sent via Parcel Force Worldwide.

 

So this is a simplified breakdown of the dates tracking my scope on it's journey to Germany and back missing out numerous emails and phone calls to customs:

24th Aug. Parcel sent out via Parcelforce Worldwide.

20th Sept. Finally arrived at Schmidt & Bender for repair having been stuck at German customs.

25th Sept. Fixed and ready for dispatch. Export license applied for by Schmidt which can take up to 6 weeks.

13th Nov. Shipped from Schmidt some 7 weeks later!

22nd Nov, contacted UPS as to why my parcel was stuck at UK Customs.

22nd Nov. a copy of initial Export Invoice and a RIF declaration form needed to be completed by me and returned before it would be released.

23rd Nov. UPS email over import duty invoice to be paid before releasing.

23rd Nov. Customs payment made.          

25th Nov. Parcel finally arrived on my doorstep.

                  

As you can see, this was a long and drawn out process for a repair that more than likely took no more than a couple of days to complete. What caused the process to take three months was the amount of bureaucratic red tape at every turn and you could say rightly so considering what was inside was as far as customs are concerned a firearm part.

 

Was it worth the wait?  absolutely.

 

What returned was what looked like a brand new (except a few scratch marks from previous scope mounts) scope in an authentic box, original label, numerous bits and bobs in plastic bags including badges etc. and above all else a perfect scope with replaced lens and reticle.

Throughout this process I dealt with the same guy at Schmidt and he returned any email I sent within hours, and I sent a lot. I won't name the chap but he was polite,  professional and full of optimism, he obviously does this type of thing on a daily basis. I can't fault anything to do with their service; you would be hard pressed to find a comparable company that delivers such a high level of excellence.

 

 

There's a reason why they're one of the best 🙂 

Brexit;  the gift that keeps giving

On 11/25/2023 at 10:59 AM, The Gun Pimp said:

I have a box of 300gn Bergers (and 250s for that matter) PM me if interested.

PM sent

5 hours ago, Montey said:

Ok I’m not asking how this should be delt with I’m confused as to why there’s so much concern regarding max loads (if the max load doesn’t exceed a loading manual) when the two accidents for want of a better term were caused by loads without powder.

I will add I hope my post comes across in a spirit of sensible debate.

Where have you had this idea from that it's because of two accidents due to no powder?  It's my understanding that there's been quite a number of issues over the years, on and off Bisley.

One thing I would criticise NRA over is the lack of feedback to the shooting community following investigations.  In the mountaineering world (where deaths are not unknown) when an accident is investigated (by experts in their field) there's a report published for general learning.

8 minutes ago, Ralpharama said:

The twist is 1 in 10. I know guys shooting the mile with the same rifle using 250gr lock-bases, but I figured the heavier ELD-Ms would stand a better chance of bucking the wind. They reckon 90.3gr of RS70 give around 3K fps 

I already saw the safety recall when I was looking on their site to see how to lighten the trigger. It was only the earlier ones that had the problem, my serial number was a lot later. 

I seen chaps try 250gr at the mile at Eskdalemuir with no success and I certainly got nothing useful out of them from my 32" 1:9.5 barrel at +3,000 fps.   I think you are unlikely to get 3,000 fps with 285 ELD-M. - I get 2,840fps with 92gr N570 but that's good to 2,000yds if the wind plays nice.

Wind at a mile is hugely influential and field ranges have little indication.  Best indicator is my mate's last shot !!

I've shot with 5mil (~17moa) wind hold at the old Over-Cassock range, a right (and left) bugger

2 hours ago, Ralpharama said:

I have weakened and risked the wrath of SWMBO and have bought a used Barrett 98B chambered in .338 Lapua.

I have some load data for 250gr Lapua lock base and have some coming. But I could do with some data on 285gr ELD-Ms which I also have coming. I'm using RS70 powder and will be using Lapua brass. 

Any thoughts

 

what's the twist rate Ralph?

Forget 250gr lock-base at a mile, they go subsonic around 1600yds.   If you have a 1:9 or possibly 1:10 then Lapua Scenar 300gr or Hornady 285gr ELD-M are good to a mile,  slower twist (like a AI AW) and you can't stabilise the heavier bullets.  I have 300gr Bergers to develop but I'm reticent as they're like rocking horse poo - probably stick to Hornady.

Don't know about RS70 as I use Viht N570,  I have oodles of the stuff !

Also, see this  https://barrett.net/support/98b-recall/

9 hours ago, furrybean said:

Touch and youre right

I just hope its not a get out clause if the that which promotes growth and vigour hits the fan and there is an issue and we need the insurance then out technical experience is robust enough to ensure we comply 

It's never a simple ok/not ok with insurance.  Ultimately if the ship that hit the fan was so serious then the courts will be making judgements, that's when having training and records will help.  Also, I think you will agree, that if the correct processes are worked to with skill and diligence then it's highly unlikely one will ever need to trouble the courts.  As a club secretary I do my best to ensure we don't have stupid dicks reloading dangerously,  thereby complying with our insurers expectations  - the fact that, should something go wrong, it could suggest our club has less than perfect processes but, importantly,  that we were not negligent in ignoring the training requirements.  We can do no more as a volunteer run organisation.

2 hours ago, furrybean said:

But the CoP says manufacturer limits or using your knowledge for pressure signs (paraphased)

Onus is on us if anything happens

Well yes it is, who else is responsible?   The point is that as long as due care and process is followed, insurance will be payable (third party risk unless personally insured)

24 minutes ago, SikaJames said:

Hello,

Does anyone use a light filling for their rear bag , for F Class ?

I have heavy sand, but it means the bag weighs on tonne.

There must be a better way !

James

Must be a better way?   If there was wouldn't that most likely be 'the way' it is done ?  The whole point of heavy sand is to hold the bag still so the butt is stabilised.

When I'm carrying rather than carting I use an old sock full of walnut media instead of my leather bag.  It's ok but not as good - better than nothing

2 hours ago, Laurie said:

The order doesn't apply to some 40 countries that are members of an arms (re) export-control agreement with the US. I'd be astonished if the UK and most if not all EU countries aren't in that group. From commentary elsewhere, it seems that South American and Asian countries make up the bulk of those affected by this order. 

As you say Laurie,  apparently members of the 'Wassenaar Arrangement' (42 countries including UK) will be reviewed on a 'case by case' basis.  Hopefully UK will be smiled upon..

Participating countries:

Argentina, Australia, Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Canada, Croatia, the Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, India, Ireland, Italy, Japan, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Mexico, Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Russia, Slovakia, Slovenia, South Africa, South Korea, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, Turkey, Ukraine, United Kingdom, USA