Popsbengo

There is no practical way of overseeing the safety of home loaded ammunition - it's founded on trust that the individuals have knowledge, experience and diligence in assembly.

The value of a declaration is at least the subject of safety has been raised - I would agree that a piece of paper alone is of dubious value but if the declaration is part of a general raising of awareness and education as to risks (as our club) then it does provide some evidence of addressing the issue.

I support the occasional audit at the range whether it be Q&A on paper or a physical test of rounds.  Of course we're all safe and sensible but those others maybe dangerous knobheads that need controlling !

A Safe Shooters Competence Card for reloading, requiring a test of knowledge and skills ?  Of course it wouldn't stop some fools but neither does a Driving License always ensure safe driving.

Anyone that's been shooting for a few years and meets up with club members will have unfortunate tales of reloading cock-ups.  Arrogance and ignorance in large measures.

We had a member load a .223 based on an overheard conversation where the other chap talking was making a joke 'one teaspoon' of powder xxx.    I kid you not.  He is still alive and in one piece thankfully.  I'm not sure how much he actually learned from the experience either...  Then there's the chap with five bullets stuck up his barrel....    I despair

As a club sec I'm reluctant to advocate for reloading training in house as we don't have 'credentials' that would stand up in court should something go wrong down the line.  I will personally help individuals 1 to 1 but I'm very particular about who I will help - I must trust that they will act sensibly.

This forum is generally populated by sensible types but there's still a small but disturbing amount of a casual disregard for safety first in offering load advice for unknown rifles

21 minutes ago, John MH said:

Do checks properly or don't do them at all. When some idiot blows his firearm up on a MoD Range even though he used 'recognised/approved/validated' (by what SEQP Body I might ask) data, but when looked into further, used his partners kitchen scales to measure the amount of 'recognised/approved/validated' propellent powder to use. Worse still the idiot who mixed Pistol Powder with Rifle Powder. These 'administrative safeguards' are not worth the paper they are written on. H&S at Work Act is for the work place, if you are not in a work place, in most instances the regulations don't apply, that's why so many people are allowed to fall off totally unsuitable ladders at home and not get prosecuted. Trying to put something in place that cannot be properly audited and checked and which relies on an individuals self declaration will not stand up to scrutiny when something does go wrong. 

I agree in part.  It seems like a weak attempt at regulation as there's no audit (yet).  If a shooter can't be trusted to make up good, safe rounds, then how likely is he/she likely to alter their behaviours when confronted by a declaration to sign?  Having said that what's the real alternative other than to chrono and/or pull rounds for inspection?

I recall a conversation with an F Class shooter who was extremely blasé about overloading rounds "we start load development after maximum loads in the manuals" and this was "advice" being given to a small group of club shooters.   A Dangerous Pr1ck.

A self declaration is not likely to carry much weight in court when some poor third party is seriously injured or worse.  At best a declaration may, just may encourage people to seek advice and take safety a bit more seriously.

1 hour ago, John_fes said:

To acquire smokeless powders you need an explosive licence unless any of the following exemptions apply, so the said RFDs selling without recording the sale of smokeless powders are in breach of the explosive regulations.

To comply with Heath and Safety Explosive Regulations 2014 (2014 No.1638) to acquire smokeless powder the person must be either:-
(1) hold a firearms certificate granted under section 27 of that Act; or
(2) hold a shotgun certificate granted under section 28 of that Act; or
(3) hold a permit granted under section 17 of the Firearms (Amendment) Act 1988 or
(4) registered as a firearms dealer under section 33 of the Firearms Act 1968

Please cite your legislation (section/para) for further reading

Addendum:

Schedule 2 Part 2 para 15 does seem to me, as a layman, to support your point.  Interesting.

6 minutes ago, TC said:

You seem to have Googled Standard Deviation, now it’s  time you move on to Google Standard Error  to understand the impact of sample size on the relevance of your SD …….

Glad you are happy though 👍😉

I think there should be a test ?

😂

Just now, nCognitos said:

So, there seems to be a real absence of understanding of the way statistics work.

There is no minimum number of samples for a meaningful results, what counts is confidence level generated by the margin of error, you keep taking data until you achieve the confidence level that you desire, and you can do this with 4, 5 or 6 samples, as long as they are representative.  More samples will increase your confidence but it's not linear and quickly becomes the subject of diminishing returns.

So for my data, taken at 37.2gn and running it through a stats calculator I have an average of 2,682ft/s.

From that I get a confidence of 68% that the results for the population will be 2,682 ± 2.49, and a 99% confidence that the results will be 2,682 ± 6.41.

I'm afraid that that is just the way maths works.  

Anyway, I got an answer to my question elsewhere so I will leave it at that.

Really, ok that's great, chuffed you got sorted, maybe you can become our go-to expert on stats ?

1 hour ago, gruntus said:

Hi All,

I contacted Sabatti support directly to get information on Torque settings for tightening down an STR action in to its Chassis System.

They quoted 15 Nm (Front) and 14 Nm(Rear) which converts to 132 in lbs and 123 in lbs respectively.

Anybody have any thoughts on the above? They sound a bit high and I would like to sanity check before (potentially) stripping a thread........  😱

ATB and thanks in advance.

G 🙂

what diameter screws and if metric what pitch ?

I've got some cutters that came to me as loose items along with what looks like an MT2 taper adapter.

Any ideas regarding manufacturer and bench machine they're from ?  Pretty old stuff I'd say.

6 hours ago, Ralpharama said:

I’ve taken my trusty No4 MkII back to 600metres so far, at which it performed surprisingly well, despite my elderly eyes. I’m taking my 300WM to Stickledown in a couple of weeks and wondered if anyone had tried an old Lee Enfield there? I’m just a regular shooter , not competitive, but would love to try if it is at all doable. I guess that I would need to shove a bit more powder in the case than usual 😂

Any one tried this?

Let us know how you go on Ralph especially what your sight settings end up as with what bullet/velocity.  We have a No4 Mk11  as well, will be good to have a feel for what may be required.  Best of British 😁

I would suggest a visit to the zero range to calibrate your sights is in order first.  Those targets look awful small at 1000yds to naked eyes 😁

25 minutes ago, nCognitos said:

Dirty Barrel, I do 5 fouling shots with factory ammo before I start.

I disagree with you, the MV variation across one grain of load are equivalent to about 0.6MOA, which is the difference between a V and a 5.

To be honest, I'm not asking to be trolled about my methodology, simply asking for help in its interpretation as the results are so different to what I expect, as demonstrated by the .303 results.  

Sorry, not trolling.  No offence intended, giving an honest appraisal of method is the way to explain confusing results.

1gr may give an observable 0.6moa but it does not follow that 0.1gr is 0.06 moa (ie tenths) as there's a collection of other variables.

Your results overlap in ES and with only five values per set it's pointless using standard deviation calculation.

What were your groups like?  That's a key criteria,  looking for tight groups that indicate a barrel harmonic node.

Problem is, if you repeated the tests you'll get different results I'll bet a pound to a pinch of snuff.  Increments of 0.2 gr but ± what ?

Your results already overlap on ES and did you clean the barrel between sets? I'm not suggesting you should just that you're at risk of reading too much into the results - like so many others do.  Do you control for primer variation?   Of course not, it's not practical.  Did you ensure precise neck tensions and seating depth variation?  Possibly but if not then is a 0.2gr increment going to be visible in the 'noise' of other variables.

I'm not having a dig at you, I'm just amazed at how much time and barrel life is wasted by so many.  This whole tiny increment ladder testing with a few rounds is statistically challenged to say the least.  There's an awful lot of spherical gonads around load development IMHO.

I move in half grain increments (typical loads for .308/6.5CM/.338) to find something that groups best without pressure signs, try another batch and tweak seating depth - done.  No graphs, no bullshine misuse of stats.

Once I have a good load I do the utmost to ensure those variables are controlled batch after batch.  My results are stable over normal UK temps, repeatable, precise and accurate.  

30 minutes ago, nCognitos said:

Thanks, my other problem is there was no appreciable change in group size across the entire range but that was on an Electronic target at 300yds.  Will go again with 37.4 to 38 on paper and see what that tells me.  

How many rounds did you test at each increment of load ?

6 minutes ago, mtrinder1991 said:

I’m looking for an M18 x 1 muzzle brake if anyone has one for sale? 
thanks

what calibre ?

21 minutes ago, Richiew said:

Wind vane is from Sniper solutions . Optics warehouse or other suppliers . If your prone and shooting close to the ground the wind is much slower than at head height and shooting to 300 yards on a10 mph wind call puts me off the fig 11 . As per catterick last Saturday. That’ll be why a kestrel comes with a short tripod??

10 mph wind, what you shooting .22LR 😁

23 minutes ago, Richiew said:

Military do things different 

Military looking not military.  It's an American made card not mil issue.

Bit like Rambo really

11 hours ago, Richiew said:

MASTER SNIPER Ep 6: How to Read the Wind

Have a look at this vid from optics warehouse. Nice wind vane mounted next to the rifle. 

Possibly some useful rules of thumb, less applicable to a target range with wind flags, possibly ok for shooting over unknown/unmarked land.  Not sure if shooting prone a wind indicator placed close by and low down is going to give a representative direction or speed with obstructions and ground turbulence affects.

I'd point out one factually incorrect statement,  45Deg wind is not 'half wind' .  If dead- ahead is 12 o'clock, then half wind is 11, or 1 or 7 or 5 o'clock. (30 deg sin 0.5)

3 minutes ago, chaz said:

Thanks Popsbengo,

But in short, that seems like well you could tell the Police nothing or less than they want, so they then come round and seize your guns and you then enter into a David a Goliath fight, that I don't have the funds for.

God I hate the Firearms people!!

It's not that bad!  Just ask the GP to complete the form and he's unsure point him to the BMA advice.  The Police make the final assessment but they are bound to take GP advice.  I think you will be ok.

have a read through this:  https://www.bma.org.uk/advice-and-support/gp-practices/gp-service-provision/the-firearms-licensing-process

Also - Extract from Guidance to Chief Police Officers Nov 2021

"2.30 Doctors should not be asked to give general access to an applicant’s medical record as this may result in doctors being in breach of the Data Protection Act 2018. Nor should they be asked to either endorse or oppose applications. Responsibility for the decision about whether a person is suitable to be granted a certificate lies with the police, not the doctor."

1 hour ago, stottycake said:

That's the trouble there won't be flags anywhere,apart from maybe the firing point, I've shot at the same place twice before and luckily there has been little or no wind,and this hasn't affected anything really, but I've a feeling it will be different this weekend, according to the forecasts I've been looking at,

But as its just a bit of fun I'll  see how it goes,

As for the books you mention can you recommend any,

 

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Wind-Book-Rifle-Shooters-Conditions/dp/1510739726

I disagree slightly;  I use the Hornady gauge with a Sinclair insert (steel not ali like Hornady). It works fine once you develop a feel.  I take a series of readings using the modified case (I make my own) with a new bullet from the same batch every time, average and done.  I use a long wooden dowel down the barrel to just feel the bullet onto the lands.

The bolt strip method is very good, however I found with care the Hornady system works as well (by comparison I achieved the same results within ±1 thou.)

The slotted case is crude and a waste of time IMHO.

I would also point out that an error of 1 or 2 thou is hardly relevant once you've started to fine adjust seating.

2 hours ago, stottycake said:

Ah, I thought the opposite as wind would effect the bullet more as it travelled further and started to slow,

A common misunderstanding, and one I held until I did some research.  For sure there's a small affect due to the slowing bullet but it's really about the deflection angle, so a small angle close to the shooter will result in a larger deflection down range.  There's some good books available.

I make a note of the closer flags and give them priority whilst 'trimming' my setting a little by looking further out.  This of course requires a series of flags like Stickledown !  If it's light winds and a warm day, haze can be a valuably help.

54 minutes ago, stottycake said:

Question 

Is it worth putting a wind flag at 1000 yards assuming I can't put any flags up at shorter distances in between, I will be shooting at this distance at the weekend,

I'm thinking anything that helps is an advantage, its not  a competition btw,

Thanks in advance 

Al

Assuming you're shooting 1000yds then a flag at that distance will tell you little unless you can be relatively sure the wind indication is representative of the whole range (unlikely).  It may actually confuse.

I'd take a reading at the firing line and go with that as it's a more influential affect.

25 minutes ago, snakeman said:

Incidentally, in the kindest possible way, your 'wealthy friend' might be a decent chap and good mate, but is talking cock...

I didn't like to say 😂

I'm sure AI makes good rifles (I've shot a few), can't say they're anything special in accuracy terms and like any rifle, benefit from good load development.

18 minutes ago, Andrew said:

The plated bullets sold here usually list 2000 fps as a max.

Gas checks on a bullet will not avoid gas cutting or leading. Much of that has to do with the bullet fit in the throat. When picking a powder to drive a well-fitting bullet at higher speeds, it's important to match the alloy strength (hardness) to the pressure of the loads, which is why I usually recommend choosing a powder that delivers the target velocity at the lowest pressure. I did 20+ years of work with high velocity cast bullet loads in bottle necked rifle cartridges and this never failed me.  ~Andrew

Interesting, not a field I've given much thought to.