No more H4350 so IMR 4451 availability in UK?

[AnthonyR]

I am getting low on H4350, got enough to last a while but I am starting to look at alternatives as it appears I have missed the boat on getting any more.

I can get some IMR 4350 but from reading up online although this is very similar to H4350 I would still need to work up a new load for it and I don't really want to start on this when I would imagine that this will be going in the near future as well.

So I am looking at alternatives and IMR4451 looks like a good bet for me, rifle is a 22.250 firing 77gr TMK so not much data online to go on, but IMR 4451 is apparently a temperature stabilised REACH compliant version of H4350 so should be a good bet for me, anybody know when some might be available?

Other alternatives might be N150 or even RL17 which I already use in my WSM.

[Laurie]

IMR-4451 has been available here for nearly two years now and is a standard Edgar Brothers product line, so order through any gunshop that does the Hodgdon / IMR range. It's not a version of H4350 as it is manufactured by a different company (General Dynamics v Thales / ADI), in a different continent even (Canada as opposed to Australia). It is a very good alternative to IMR and H4350. It is mildly high-energy (as seems to be common amongst recent introductions), is less temperature affected than IMR-4350 but more so than H4350, and has an anti copper fouling additive. It is short-cut so suits mechanical powder measures very well.

Also consider Reload Swiss RS62, a very stable single-based tubular product which also does the same job as the 4350s and 4451, but which is longer grained than H4350/IMR-4451.

Hodgdon doesn't have data for 77s in 22-250 (nobody does I should think), but does for the 70gn Speer SP on its online database for both H4350 and IMR-4451 letting you see how they behave in relative terms for a heavy bullet

http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/rifle

IME, having compared many Hodgdon loads for the  pair, 4451 maxima bracket H4350 depending on cartridge, some m marginally lower, some marginally higher. .22-250 with the 70gn Speer is one of those with both powders given a 34.0gn starting load, but 4451 given a maximum of 37.5gn against H4350's 36.0gn, but this is reversed for the 60gn Hornady VMax, but that may be due to compressed charges and how much the case will hold for this pair.

 

 

[AnthonyR]

Thanks for the very comprehensive reply, much appreciated.

My normal powder supplier told me this morning that IMR 4451 was not available in the UK yet!!!  I will look out for some at other suppliers. Thanks for the tip about RS62, I will look into that if I can't get any 4451.

Good news that 4451 meters better than H4350 as that is the worst powder I have ever used in my Chargemaster, about 1/3 over-throws at least is the norm.

[mremanxx]

Hi Laurie,

I too have the same issue but thought about the N150 option as my local RFD stocks it. Is this a good option for the 6.5 creedmoor using Lapua 139 scenars

 

Cheers

[Laurie]

Viht N150, N550, and N160 will all work with this combination (6.5 Creedmoor + 136-143gn bullets). I had excellent results (small groups and ES) with N160 in Norma (large primer) brass with the old low BC and budget Nosler 140gn Custom Competition HPBT, but MVs are lower than with H4350/IMR-4451. 4451 worked well too and in my rifle needed slightly higher charges than H4350 for the same MVs.

(Given the ongoing H4350 shortages in the USA, IMR-4451 has become a favourite stand-in for H4350 and many US Creedmoor shooters whether match shooters or deerhunters have switched to it full-time having become fed up with continual H4350 shortages. The PRS Blog people did a side by side test a while back and found it's more temperature affected than H4350 and generally the top PRS competitors using 6 and 6.5 Creedmoor have stuck with H4350 just making sure they buy large amounts at whatever price is demanded.)

I've not tried N150/550 in the Creedmoor, but I would expect N550 to be very well matched and give high MVs, albeit at the expense of barrel life if loaded up to the limit. N150 is a little on the fast-burning side and (like N160) has a considerably lower energy content than H4350, IMR-4451, or RS60/62, so again MVs will be at best adequate. Note that whilst Viht provides loads data for the powder with the 139gn Scenar, the MVs are well down on N160 and even more so N550.

http://www.vihtavuori.com/en/reloading-data/rifle-reloading/6-5-creedmoor.html

(Note too that Viht load data is for the Lapua small primer case, and while I have no way of knowing how hot or conservative the company's maximum loads are, they may be too high pressure for some makes of large primer Creedmoor brass given that the small primer and 1.5mm flash-hole reduce pressures considerably in most cartridges compared to LR primers and 2mm flash-holes.)

I've also found a tendency for N150 to produce a pressure spike if you go a little too far in the small / mid-size 6.5s, so if you use it be careful as you approach maximum listed loads with small charge weight increases especially in large primer brass. Note too there are quite large discrepancies between Creedmoor case capacities which affect pressures - Hornady cases (very variable in themselves between production lots) have greater capacity than Norma, and I would expect (but can't confirm) Lapua. The new Lapua small primer case is not only very strong, but the small primer and flash-hole set-up reduce the pressures produced from any given charge weight, and maximum loads would therefore tend to be higher.

Unfortunately, recent loads data-sets from US sources have little or no use of Viht powders. I understand that use of the powders has dropped off a lot 'over there' due to a combination of poor supplies in many states and compared to IMR/Hodgdon high prices - the exact opposite of our situation. So Lyman, Hornady and Sierra have no Viht powder options in their recently produced and issued 6.5 Creedmoor data. With Lapua having bought into the USA in a big way recently - buying Berger Bullets and it has set up a new wholly owned US distribution company called Capstone Precision Group commissioning a new large purpose-built distribution centre for all Nammo brands at Capstone, Missouri which went live at the end of 2017. So, this situation may improve in the future.

(A bit of a minefield here!)

[mremanxx]

22 hours ago, Laurie said:

Viht N150, N550, and N160 will all work with this combination (6.5 Creedmoor + 136-143gn bullets). I had excellent results (small groups and ES) with N160 in Norma (large primer) brass with the old low BC and budget Nosler 140gn Custom Competition HPBT, but MVs are lower than with H4350/IMR-4451. 4451 worked well too and in my rifle needed slightly higher charges than H4350 for the same MVs.

(Given the ongoing H4350 shortages in the USA, IMR-4451 has become a favourite stand-in for H4350 and many US Creedmoor shooters whether match shooters or deerhunters have switched to it full-time having become fed up with continual H4350 shortages. The PRS Blog people did a side by side test a while back and found it's more temperature affected than H4350 and generally the top PRS competitors using 6 and 6.5 Creedmoor have stuck with H4350 just making sure they buy large amounts at whatever price is demanded.)

I've not tried N150/550 in the Creedmoor, but I would expect N550 to be very well matched and give high MVs, albeit at the expense of barrel life if loaded up to the limit. N150 is a little on the fast-burning side and (like N160) has a considerably lower energy content than H4350, IMR-4451, or RS60/62, so again MVs will be at best adequate. Note that whilst Viht provides loads data for the powder with the 139gn Scenar, the MVs are well down on N160 and even more so N550.

http://www.vihtavuori.com/en/reloading-data/rifle-reloading/6-5-creedmoor.html

(Note too that Viht load data is for the Lapua small primer case, and while I have no way of knowing how hot or conservative the company's maximum loads are, they may be too high pressure for some makes of large primer Creedmoor brass given that the small primer and 1.5mm flash-hole reduce pressures considerably in most cartridges compared to LR primers and 2mm flash-holes.)

I've also found a tendency for N150 to produce a pressure spike if you go a little too far in the small / mid-size 6.5s, so if you use it be careful as you approach maximum listed loads with small charge weight increases especially in large primer brass. Note too there are quite large discrepancies between Creedmoor case capacities which affect pressures - Hornady cases (very variable in themselves between production lots) have greater capacity than Norma, and I would expect (but can't confirm) Lapua. The new Lapua small primer case is not only very strong, but the small primer and flash-hole set-up reduce the pressures produced from any given charge weight, and maximum loads would therefore tend to be higher.

Unfortunately, recent loads data-sets from US sources have little or no use of Viht powders. I understand that use of the powders has dropped off a lot 'over there' due to a combination of poor supplies in many states and compared to IMR/Hodgdon high prices - the exact opposite of our situation. So Lyman, Hornady and Sierra have no Viht powder options in their recently produced and issued 6.5 Creedmoor data. With Lapua having bought into the USA in a big way recently - buying Berger Bullets and it has set up a new wholly owned US distribution company called Capstone Precision Group commissioning a new large purpose-built distribution centre for all Nammo brands at Capstone, Missouri which went live at the end of 2017. So, this situation may improve in the future.

(A bit of a minefield here!)

Quality concise advice as always. I will be using Lapua brass and had read about the pressures in this case. I only considered N150 as I am not keen on the effect 550 has on the barrel. Did not think about 160 though, if I understand you correctly this would be a better option with greater flexibility than the 150?

 

Thanks Laurie.

[chaz]

I've stuck with Vihtavuori powder since the shortage of other powders a few years back...

So just thought i'd put my 2 pence worth in.... I thought i'd made a big mistake by buying Viht N150 for my 6.5cm. But i was wrong. I can only talk about my results in my rifle with the Lapua 6.5mm 139 grain OTM Scenar.  In my 24" barrel, 1 in 8 Tikka T3X TAC1, using Lapua small primer brass. I was achieving sub half moa with all 4 groups at 100 yards using 39.0 and 39.1 grains of N150. The velocity was at and just over the 2800fps +/- 10 fps. (Dont have my data book to hand) I'm currently making up loads to test the Sierra TMK 130 grain, and the Hornady 143 ELD-X. But so far it's been great. The only signs I've seen of high pressure is a very light, (and sometimes not at all) scuff on the extractor. And i really do mean very light. The loads all being around 15 though from the lands.

I have to add that i started off around the mid way of the advised powder charge given by Viht. I have also found, and been advised by a very well known reloader on this forum that Viht are very conservative in their load data. And have found this to be very true.

Cheers

Chaz

[Laurie]

Hmmmm .......!!  Your load is 3.6gn above Viht's maximum, a full 10%. Viht data can be conservative, particularly for N140 in 308 Win, but I'd be loathe to advise people to simply assume that must also apply to the Creedmoor.

Just be aware that the Lapua small primer 6.5X47/308 Palma/6BR/ 6.5 Creedmoor case-head rarely shows any signs of excessive pressure until it reaches blown-primer level, and that's likely on the wrong side of 70,000 psi.

QuickLOAD suggests your load is OK in fact - but to be honest I simply don't trust the program for the various smaller 6.5s for various reasons. However, it also says that whilst pressures are OK, they'll only produce 2,647 fps from a 24-inch barrel. To get the 139 up to 2,800 fps takes a tad over 67,000 psi with this powder.

That might or might not be so, but it wouldn't surprise me overmuch. Use of 65,000 psi + handloads is pretty common with this group of small primer cases, but there are no free lunches and sometimes things that are OK can suddenly stop being so in this situation. (That's exactly what I found with the 6.5X47L and the 123gn Scenar and N150.)

[Vortex]

Been using 123gr with N-150 in lapua brass and found it shows signs of pressure at the top end of the loads. Marks on the brass,I can’t go off the primer as it’s a Remmy 700 with a hole In the boltface the size of a dustbin.  

Thats out of a 28 inch barrel giving 2970fps and does well out to 1000 yards.

Just tried some 139gr lapua with n-150 and no pressure signs and I’m .5gr over the max load.  36gr works really well, ragged one hole groups and seems more consistent than the 123gr at 100 yards.

starting at 33gr with .5 increment gave really good groups.

36.5 just opened the groups up tho. 

Think my rifle likes these 139gr so might switch to these. 

Any way N-150 seems to do well with both the 123gr and 139gr Just got to watch the pressure signs with the lighter bullet. 

[No i deer]

36grs of N150 behind the 139gr scenar are slow threw my 27 inch tube which is viht max load.off the top of my head less than 2700fps. I will check later.incidentally they did cloverleaf.

I opened my last tub of H4350 tother day 

[Vortex]

Looking in the vhit app 35.5 is max for n1-150. Not great velocity. Did notice a fair bit of difference in elevation difference with 123gr, was a good 4 inches lower at 100 yards possibly more.

Might try pushing it further, with the 150. 37-38gr but don’t fancy pushing it much more.

N-160 looks a little better being over 2700 FPS. Probably get a fair bit more out of it before pressure signs show if I go over max load.

other benefit is I use 160 in my 30-06 so less powders to buy. 

 

[No i deer]

The only load on viht data ive ever tried in all the calibres ive had that showed pressure signs on there max load was my 6.5x47 & N540 behind 123gr amaxs.accuracy was terrible too.ive never had another crap load in my 6.5x47.all have been good to excellent but then using h4350 and varget ive been spoilt

[chaz]

On 1/12/2018 at 9:20 PM, Laurie said:

Hmmmm .......!!  Your load is 3.6gn above Viht's maximum, a full 10%. Viht data can be conservative, particularly for N140 in 308 Win, but I'd be loathe to advise people to simply assume that must also apply to the Creedmoor.

Just be aware that the Lapua small primer 6.5X47/308 Palma/6BR/ 6.5 Creedmoor case-head rarely shows any signs of excessive pressure until it reaches blown-primer level, and that's likely on the wrong side of 70,000 psi.

QuickLOAD suggests your load is OK in fact - but to be honest I simply don't trust the program for the various smaller 6.5s for various reasons. However, it also says that whilst pressures are OK, they'll only produce 2,647 fps from a 24-inch barrel. To get the 139 up to 2,800 fps takes a tad over 67,000 psi with this powder.

That might or might not be so, but it wouldn't surprise me overmuch. Use of 65,000 psi + handloads is pretty common with this group of small primer cases, but there are no free lunches and sometimes things that are OK can suddenly stop being so in this situation. (That's exactly what I found with the 6.5X47L and the 123gn Scenar and N150.)

I value Laurie's opinion very much, and have read from my load data pad to give people as accurate an opinion as i can. I don't have 'quick load', so i can't give the pressures...              All i would say is start a lot lower than this load, as i did, and stop when you reach any pressure signs. And also know what the pressure signs are...

But here is my data using my F1 Chrony.

New Lapua, small flash hole, and small primer brass cases. Using Federal Gold Match primers. 139 Lapua Scenar bullets. And the most accurate load of Viht N150 was 39 grains giving me an average of 2779 fps. And a group of 0.327" over an 8 shot string at 100 yards. My writing isn't very clear, but the bullets were seated from the lands at either 2.200". Or 2.208" from a moderated 24" Tikka TAC1 Barrel. And it was a calm, 58 degrees F day. Just to add, i'd be interested to know what PSI the rounds were doing...                                Cheers.                                                                                                                                                    Chaz. 

[No i deer]

As promised

 

[Vortex]

Going to test some more 139 gr I think with n-160 see how that does and when ive shot the rest of the ohhh.....700, 123gr I have left will have to get some 139s in bulk hey do seem to group really well. 

 

 

[No i deer]

Its appears that 39grs of N150 under the 139gr scenar is a good load in the 6.5x47.not really sure why some say the 6.5x47 is not suitable with the 139gr To 142gr bullets. I shoot predominately the heavys

[The Gun Pimp]

The factory Lapua 6.5x47 ammunition is offered with three bullet weights - 108, 123 and 139gn.