6.5 Credmore ammunition

[Cad Monkey]

I hope not to confuse the issue But is the 6mm Creedmoor a viable alternative for a 1000m calibre. It seems to be making lots of noise in the US

 

Educate me, what advantage does the 6mm Creedmoor give over a standard .243?

[bradders]

Educate me, what advantage does the 6mm Creedmoor give over a standard .243?

 

It's more 6XC than a 6XC

 

If you hang on long enough someone will "re-invent" 240NMC by replacing the 240 with a 6 and calling it 6NMC McAccuratefatigability....and then that will be the cartridge to have, oh yes, I can't wait

[Laurie]

Educate me, what advantage does the 6mm Creedmoor give over a standard .243?

 

 

A slightly smaller capacity case = marginally better (less bad!) barrel life and a bit less powder = a bit less recoil for the same MV. Also when shooting long thin heavy 6mm bullets, the 243 suffers the same problem as the 260 Rem which the 6.5 Creedmoor sets out to solve - bullets seated way too deeply in the case for a 2.8-2.85" COAL. The shorter Creedmoor case allows cartridges to fit the ubiquitous AI magazine (2.85-2.88" COALs accepted) with another tenth of an inch of bullet ahead of the case-mouth.

 

On top of that, fashion I'd think. For single-shot prone competition rifles where COAL isn't an issue, the 243 is a fine if little used cartridge, although I'd prefer the slightly reformed long neck and sharper shoulder 6mm Super-LR.

[gbal]

1) very small pro/con issues,of interest to niche shooters,that do not generalise to other disciplines;for mst 'ordinary' shooters these approach differences without meaningful distinctions.

 

2) Fashion-the top 50 check what is doing well-and if a tad better than themselves,switch;other more ordinary shooters look at the top 50 and imagine they will be like them if they switch to those cartridges.

 

3) Personality factors in the shooter.

 

Reviews are almost always biased-few shoot multi discipline events.Pointsmade may be truefor their shooting,but do not generalise.

 

"6.5 Shootout-260,6.5L,CM" Zak Smith does a good job.

 

The PRS trend to 6mm versions of Lapua and CM change nothing comparatively,but Laurie summarises why;

Stalkers will rightly stay with the 6.5s-clout matters.

 

gbal

[gbal]

Bradders,indeed -similar to 'fashion'.

 

When the tablet of stone with the T65 NATO specs (aka 308w) came down from the mountain,and reached Warren Page and Mr Huntingdon-a formidable pair of shooters covering Bench Rest,varminting and3 hunting,they noted that a 6mm was a natural,indeed very close to the Rockchucker and Super Pooper cutting edge wildcats,and the 243 was developed...indeed a rose,but.....

 

Perhaps it's time for the 6-08 (small primer of course).

 

gbal

[Brillo]

By way of a quick high jack of this interested thread, Howa now produce a 6.5 Creedmoor. They are available in this country in a GRS Berserk stock.

I saw one yesterday. Looks like a nice stalking rifle.

[gbal]

Brillo,it's a relevant issue for the use of the CM-and maybe ammunition choice.

Stalkers are not really looking at a very wide choice of CM rifles.

This rifle should help,presumably at the less expensive end of the scale.

 

gbal

[Scotch_egg]

That was reported on Snipers Hide a while back as a large American supplier advertised Tikka T3X-CTRs in the chambering. But then it turned out that there weren't any, no explanation given or available and when Tikka was asked via its US distributor, the official line (only a few months ago) was that the company did not intend to adopt it 'for the foreseeable' future.

 

My good friend Chris Parkin who works for WMS and also reviews rifles and optics for several publications as a contributing independent gun writer has just written up a tactical Tikka (or Sako - can't remember exactly what now) in 260 Rem and told me last Thursday that his review takes the company to task for this blindness to the hottest new cartridge for a generation in the world's largest market. He asked the same question and apparently received the same reply.

 

It seems the original Snipers Hide and some other forum and online reports apparently set a hare running and as is often the case with some stories, it can be remarkably difficult to ascertain what is fact and what is misinformation for a long time afterwards. At the time I researched every European rifle manufacturer to see which if any had adopted the Creedmoor and Tikka / Sako neither showed it anywhere nor mentioned it in any press release. As a former marketing and Press/PR manager, if they have actually done so, then I can only say their press relations and marketing activities 'suck' to use an American expression.

 

I wait in hope and expectation that there really are factory T3Xs out there, but am not holding my breath to be honest. It may be that Beretta / Tikka wish to keep their powder dry for the long promised launch and apparently rather drawn out introduction of the T3X TAC-A1.

 

Here is a link to a report on the rifle and again mention of rumours of 6.5HCM chambering

 

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/06/15/new-tikka-unveiled-t3x-tac-a1/

 

Sorry Laurie but the Tikka T3X 6.5 Creedmoor do appear to have been produced.

 

http://www.thestalkingdirectory.co.uk/showthread.php/123957-Tikka-CTR-T3x-6-5-Creedmoor

 

http://www.thestalkingdirectory.co.uk/showthread.php/124433-Update-Tikka-CTR-T3x-Prime-Ammo?p=1150990#post1150990

[Laurie]

Don't be sorry, it's good news. Beretta / Tikka's marketing can only be described as shambolic though!

[gbal]

Hmmmm ..... and these retail miracles were taking place in Texas almost six years ago....must have been in the Houston warehouse...with (very cheap) RUAG/Norma oxymoron ammo too....

 

...are there any more sightings since.....

 

..or is it a conspiracy in the confederacy? :-)

 

gbal

[MTLEADFARMER]

[Andrew]

How do I know that wasn't Photoshopped?? ~Andrew

[MTLEADFARMER]

If it was photoshopped I would have put a bikini on you!

[Andrew]

I wouldn't put it past you!~Andrew

[Laurie]

The 'official' word some weeks ago, was that a 'limited' quantity was being made in the calibre for the US market alone. So, anybody here expecting to eventually find one for sale has to to hope that the 'limited American build' sells like hot cakes and an irresistible demand for more is seen by the American importer Beretta USA and by the manufacturer.

 

Even that doesn't necessarily get anything to the UK. I presume that the factory turned out its 'limited' supply as a response to requests from the US importer, Beretta USA. The question for anyone here wanting a 6.5 Creedmoor Tikka is, has our importer shown in any desire to see the rifle in this form .... or had it even heard of the 6.5mm Creedmoor until Viking Arms and the retail gunshop trade started selling Ruger PRs in large numbers? Even the 'Ruger PR argument' doesn't necessarily strengthen the case. Speaking to Viking's people on their Northern Shooting Show stand in April. they told me that they'd hardly sold any 243s, and that of the two successful calibres, 308 versions were outselling 6.5 Creedmoor ones by a three or four to one ratio. This will be taken as 'proof' by those who don't want to contemplate anything new that '308 is what range shooters want, not newfangled American things'. Given what this thread is about - Creedmoor ammunition and components shortages - it's a wonder that any Creedmoor factory rifles were being sold nine months ago, let alone a third share. The position in April 2017 is set to be very different.

 

My experience of most of our sporting rifle importers is that they are very heavily influenced by the deerstalking trade. So far as most stalkers who like 6.5s are concerned, nothing better than the 6.5X55mm has ever been invented, which from their particular viewpoint is a fair argument. Mention activity on particular forums and websites relating to competition disciplines and the importers' managers and reps rarely know of the sites, let alone ever look at them to see 'what's hot and what's not', so keep being taken by complete surprise when a 'sudden unforeseeable demand' (always their words) appears. I've spent the last couple of years telling Edgar Brothers that the Creedmoor is huge in America and eventually will be here too and was politely treated as a bore with a fixation until nine months ago when orders for vast quantities of 6.5 Creedmoor ammunition were hurriedly dumped onto the factory. Viking got its foot into the door first with the RPR and gave Edgar Brothers a nasty surprise.

[gbal]

Anecdote:

 

UK shooter "Why don't we see Remwinrug rifles at Bisley?"

 

Under Assistant US Sales Promotion RWR guy * " We sell more in Bismark"

 

UK shooter "BIsmark-where the hell is that ?"

 

UASP RWR guy: "Actually,I had to look it up myself-apparently it's a small town in Nebraska".

 

Fact:

 

On Black Friday just past,the FBI's National Instant Criminal Background Check System processed

 

185,713 applications, up 400 on last years record total.Not every one results in a gun sale (NRA/Acc Shooter report)

 

I have no data on how many FAC variations were granted that day in the UK.(no figures available).

 

* Under Assistant..... Sales Promotion..". 1965 Rolling Stones-the B side to "I can't get no satisfaction"....coincidentally!

 

gbal

[Laurie]

I quite accept that George, and we may get a lowish priority for order when demand outstrips supply - actually, I'm more often surprised by how often US manufacturers do look after us given that at times their best commercial interests, albeit short-term, would be to say: 'Sorry, but we can sell this four times over in the USA, so everything we get is going to supply Americans'. On a straightforward, narrow market view, we wouldn't have had a pound of Hodgdon VarGet, H4350, or H4831sc reach our shores for several years now, but Hodgdon always tries to 'play fair' with European customers and Edgar Brothers. (Edgars supplies all of Europe with Hodgdon products not just UK outlets.)

 

but if our importer for a product doesn't order it in the first place, we can hardly complain about the manufacturer if it doesn't turn up on gunshop racks! I constantly think of a previous supplier of Savage rifles (not the current one) which repeatedly told Savage target rifle specialist Stuart Anselm (Osprey Rifles) that .... 'there is no demand in the UK for single-shot sporting rifles - if it hasn't got a magazine, you can hardly give it away', so wouldn't accept any orders for the Savage single-shot varmint rifles. (Or to be more precise, would accept an order on the basis of 100% payment up-front, no promises on delivery date or even a promise of delivery at all, and the right to ask for additional payment on delivery if the factory gate price had risen by the time of supply and/or the exchange rate saw the pound drop against the USD.)

 

Still, a sale lost to such importers (and much more sadly to the retail gun trade) is often a build order for a custom rifle, or a rebarreling commission for the various rifle builders on this forum. Tell Baldie Dave for instance that there's 'no demand' for 6.5 Creedmoor rifles!

[gbal]

Indeed,Laurie-just meant as a light jibe at commercial practice-not neccessarily best practice!

US does not always win either-I have a win88,marketed in response to 'huge' demand from US hunters for "a lever action like a 270 or 30-06". Commercial flop-though it's specially designed 284 win cartridge was resurected by a somewhat smaller customer base,much later. Browning did a little better. Heck,I even have a Savage rifle made a hundred years ago,but that one did sell very well in US,but not UK. Kulture!

 

Much of this is about essentially niche sales-or less flatteringly perhaps,very small volume sales for popular home market US products. We don't actually miss out on very much-but don't have Walmart convenience for any fireams/ammo.

A Tikka CM would sell quite well to a rather select,discerning coven uk afficionados,just as AR neo clones to the black magic specialists.

I'd consider a Sako 75 too-but doubt really that it would do very much a 260 would not,for gong clanging,but that number was available.

Serious shooters tend to be parial to custom rifles- CSR/custom suedo rifle included,and very nice too,for savvy civilians. :-)

Mine was an AUG-alternate universal gat (to paraphrase politely).

 

Serious question though.... (where)..can we buy 115 DTac 243 bullets in the UK-I'm not going to Nebraska!

 

atb

george

[Laurie]

Try HPS-Target Rifle Ltd for 115gn DTACs, George. HPS has stocked the older version in the past and seems to manage to get supplies of all Sierra's latest match models before most other retailers.

[John MH]

Serious question though.... (where)..can we buy 115 DTac 243 bullets in the UK-I'm not going to Nebraska!

 

 

I have over 6000 uncoated DTACs here in Cornwall