.17 Hornet short ?

[gunner]

Some mite say whats the point . Carrying-on from another thread , if say i was crazy enough to start the process of building a new build to replace my hmr using a completely different centre fire action and a well known easy to get case ( Hornet ) . Shortened necked down if using (22H) obviously it would need some steps / forming dies to get its shoulder back and a suitable case volume to push a 20 grain Vmax at around 2600-2800 i was thinking . As its still just a pipe dream atm . But the hornet case made sence today ( looking again at pistol cases in manual today ) as i was considering the .25 auto or .32auto / .32s&w for the parent case ( almost like a short fat ppc case ) . The latters were all wider and would be very short contrary to the case volume to suit the 2600-2800 fps ! Hence the slightly longer hornet / and abundance of good actions to build on . Could forming this 17 hornet short actually be done ? And be possible with the right equipment / steps ? Another thought is about dies , could the 17 hornet ones be used if shortened etc !

Any feedback would be great especially if you have experience forming between calibers ! Cheers tim .

[17 squirrel]

Hi Gunner

What you want is a .17 Squirrel

[gunner]

Thanks fella , iv heard of it but must admit not very many people use it ? You do right ? If so what kind of fps has it with a 20 grain bullet ? Is it based on the hornet case? . Im off to learn some more on this . ATB

 

That you on INGO foram ? Im on saubier .. Cheers

IN,GunOwners.com - INGO ! Id never heard of them either / EDIT

[Will0]

The FN 5.7 round would be an interesting replacement, maybe a wildcat in .20 cal one day

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/FN_5.7×28mm

[David Hancock]

Gunner - google some of the wicked little calibres Bruce Potts has been producing

[gunner]

Ill cheak them out -thanks , but the squirrel is looking very good , able to buy formed brass that just needs annealing , think i read either rcbs or Redding made dies for it ! This is probably the next build ! Cheers

[gbal]

Gunner,good idea for a new post-we were intruding a bit on the "Low velocity for 20TAC one' you refer too-but do see the last few posts there:

 

It's been done-I outlined the 17 Squirrrel -which is a short (.996) Hornet,though it's noslouch

 

And the old 5mmRemington Magnum rim fire-which would be good,if we had the rifle(s)-especuallly with the new Aguila ammo.

As I mentioned,Andrew in Montana shoots these-see his informative post;AND the 5mmCraig,converting to cf. 32g@2600.

 

So it can be done,and indeed has been.

I can't see Remington bringing back the rifles,though.and decent HMR ammo seems more likely.....especially as there are a lot of the rifles out there.

 

The pioneeer work on these 'early 17 wildcats,and the issues raised,is wonderfully described in some detail in:

"Twenty Two Caliber Varmint Rifles' ,CS Landis 1947.Not a lot is really new,though I think the PeeWee(30 carbine) was the only'pistol' case used. There was more interest in improving on the Hornet,introduced in the early 1930s,and the Hornet had little competition. When Gebby introduced his "22 varminter" (22-250) in the early 30s,and the 22 Swift arrived in 1935,serious velocity was there,and the interest focussed at this faster end. In 1950, the 222rem took over the mid range.

The market for "Hornet/sub Hornet" would be very limited,and UK lesislation did not help-the Hornet holds on in Europe,but hardly much developed,especially in milder form. Probably why the 17HMR seemed a good idea-reasonably economical rf ,but way above the 22LRs. Indeed,it just seems to need reliable ammo to meet it's modest ambitions-and shooters who don't exaggerate them.

 

gbal

[17 squirrel]

I am on saubier but have never heard of INGO.If you go to Saubier home page and scroll down a bit you will find an article by Tom Moore about the .17 squirrel its a very good read. It is based on the hornet case, i wouldn't bother buying formed cases they are quite easy to form. Todd kindler will have the dies on the shelf and is well worth a call.

The only thing i would say about annealing is that it is a very short case and sometimes the head can get hot and lead to blowing primers (ask me how i know that) I do them in a spinner half full of water or drop them straight into cold water now to take all the heat away quickly.

I use 7.8g of lil gun and a 20g open tip bullet. How fast it is going i have no idea.This is the test target load that cooper used in my first squirrel about 11-12 years ago it was very accurate so i stuck with it.

I shoot quite alot of rabbits and i like to head shoot them and sell them so most of my shots are taken at 50-75 yards

I do shoot the ocasional fox for this i use a 25g lead tip bullet and 5.5g of Vit110 but again mostly 50-75 yards

I also like s&b brass or RWS with the small flash holes i also use pistol primers. It is quite easy to over pressure this small case and even an inoccent change of primers can be nothing short of catastrophic.

Mike Norris has the reamers and birmingham proof house have cases and load data which can hurry things up.

This is a very small case and very small changes in anything make a massive difference. If i can help in any way or if you have any questions let me know.

[gunner]

Thank you squirrel ill have a look on saubier . May drop you a pm with a question if i get any issues . More stuff to think about, barrel length action etc - all the best .

[gbal]

Just google "The 17 squirrel" by Tom Moore-it's all there in quite some detail (and on saubier,as 17squirrel-notes - now there's a coincidence :-) . Happy fricassees ! !

 

 

An easy access to some of Bruce Potts writing on the sub 17 calibres is goggled on "Bruce Potts wildcat cartridges' a Gunmart article.....starting with the 14 Walker Hornet,a few of which exist in UK,then on down to some serious 'mouse guns'.....add a magnifying glass to your reloading equipment.

 

gbal

[Shuggy]

What you really want is the 4.6x30mm as the ballistics are very similar to the .17 HMR. But finding a reamer, brass and dies would be an interesting challenge. This is despite the fact that large quantities of the stuff are made right here in the UK, at Radway Green in Cheshire.

[gbal]

H&K 4.6x30 (from 2001) originally for the MP7PDW.

26g@2380fps

31g@2200

 

Fiocchi sold some in US too around $50 per 100.

 

Problem,as Shuggy says is also getting a rifle so chambered...the cartridge looks just dinky,though,see Wiki photo with 30 carbine comparison.

 

gbal

[gunner]

Not heard of that one 4.6 x30 . Just found some load data of the squirrel using a 20 grain Vmax data was between 2670 and 2850 i think , so i went on ballistic calculator and plugged in info @ 2750 was more realistic it had 10 odd inch drop ( 250 Yard ) from 100 Yard zero ! Pretty good , a slight step up from hmr but no way near 17 hornet. Its looking more perfect as i go along , in a cz 527 with a 9 twist finished at about 19 " - keeping it small as its basically a rimmy . Boyds do cheap stocks to fit this cz too ! The Barracuda looks sweet . Exciting times as my br is all finished up and running etc , bring it on .

 

I wonder if this little fella is on QL - sneaky feeling it is !

[17 squirrel]

When i brought my HMR the shop i brought it from told it was one of only three, the first to arrive in the country. He said there would be no problems with ammo etc and it was here to stay, unlike the 5mm remington which i remember, iv always been a sucker for new shiney things especially .17 shiney things. Straight to nearest police station for variation form.

Week later took it home with four boxs of shells,scope on,zeroed, out that night in my then lamping motor an escort van i thought all my christmases had come at once. I could park in the middle of any field and head shoot every rabbit on there, quite easily, something i could not do with my .22 and the longer range ones. So three days later back to said shop for more ammo,no problem. A few months later after having to go to litts in south wales to be allowed only one box i thought this has got to change. Mr google told me how,either a .12 CCM or .17Squirrel.

I had owned both a .17 Ackley hornet and .17 Mack4 both of which i thought were to much gun for rabbits, even a well placed head shot would often result in damaged front and shoulders. As i said before i like to sell all the rabbits i shoot and dont like to waste anything. If you dont sell them and just want to get rid of them i would go .17 hornet/.17 fireball.

One of the reason i chose the squirrel was that i could get the components for it at any gunshop, and it was standard bolt face and a doner action was readily available. Having said that i ended up buying a cooper factory chambered.

The only fault with it, which didn't really bother me is that it is single shot, even Cooper said they only made single shot as they could not get it to feed.

The brass is easy to form just two dies and an extended shell holder. It also seems to be kind on brass i have some RWS i have reloaded 27 times. I use the new cases straight out of the form die i either form them to be a tight fit on the shoulders or i load them long and well into the lands, i reduce the powder about .5-1 grain for this depending on the brass, they can be quite full.

They obviously need to be annealed which can be a bit fiddly with such a short case, i anneal them about every 5/7 loadings. i like s/b or RWS brass with the small flash hole, the RWS is expensive but seems to last the longest.

[gunner]

Thanks for more info , i looked online earlier for dies - plenty in us but here could be difficult . Still might buy formed as then all i have to get is fl type s and seater die . Can i ask whats your barrel length and twist ? Also please spill the beans on your homeloads/powder specs etc . Feeding wise i initially thought martini single shoter , but thought accuracy may be slightly worse than say a 527 bolt action . But who knows . I know im going to have to hand chamber them little rockets regardless . I had a peek at QL and without changing any col from the std setting , this little fella was aparently easily going over 3000 fps with 20 grain Vmax and around 7.1 grain of LiLgun , i kept playing with barrel length and it even went a little over 3100 fps ! But in reality this could be very different - and speed wasn't really the goal . Id say 2900 or less would be spot on .

[17 squirrel]

Hi Gunner. Im sure its got a 21" barrel with a 10 twist. For dies i would defiantly give Todd kindler at the woodchuck den a ring, he will have them on the shelf, probably be here in under a fortnight. Also get him to send a copy of his book Sensational seventeens, theres a lot of good info in that.

As for load info, lil gun is my favourite and i find most accurte powder for 20g bullets. Vit110 for 25g. I also use Accurate 1680 but find it a bit dirty. The good thing is a tub of lil gun will load just shy of 1000 rounds.

What speed they flying at, not a clue really, have never chrono'd them, i just find my most accurate load, zero at 75 yards then point and shoot at everything.

Personaly i would go for a bolt action cz or maybe a Weihrauch if i could get one at the right money.

[gunner]

Hey thanks again , ill plug in the info into QL and try and work out the ideal barrel length ( im thinking 17 " naturally ) what bullet are you using 20g what ? Lil gun seems the powder for such small cases . What sort of range do you keep to ? Im thinking it will be the 200 yard gun the hmr should of been ! All the best -tim.

[The_Dogge]

Personaly i would go for a bolt action cz or maybe a Weihrauch if i could get one at the right money.

 

I'm intrigued by the calibre, do they feed from the magazine for you? I'd guess that may be a problem for a case like that, even 17Fireball is known to be hard to get to feed reliably isn't it?

 

Wouldn't it be great if you could get cases with very different internal volumes, so you could get a 17Rem rifle, but then if you wanted to tune the speed right down you just use cases with "very thick walls/bases", am I missing something or is it a good concept for super easy wildcatting? no new dies, no chamber reamers needed....

[gbal]

The important technicalities apart,like obturation with thick brass and reduced powder,and pressure issues,wildcatters tend to like maximising performance-or doing it optimally,even if it isn't the easiest compromise!

Saboted ammo was tried,but failed-in the end,no-one really wanted to shoot 224 from their 30-06,or 30 30-though accuracy was also something of an issue.And very few actually bought l/a rifles with 270 performance-despite asking Winchester for them,when Winchester made them....

"one size fits all' hasn't been a guiding principles of wildcatting-there is a bit of 'can it be done?' as well as little 'should it be done'-and there really isn't a limit on the tools in the box where the market is (US).A very few shoot 'squib loads',so is there really a market ?

 

Note-technicalites aside-I'm not saying it isn't an attractive idea,if feasible.I doubt the adjustable golf club would catch on either... :-)

 

gbal

[gunner]

Ok just been playing on QL / squirrel using

20g berger match varmint #17304
col 1.270"
7.8 grains of lilgun
21" barrel 10 twist

This load showed HOT on QL giving 3374 fps . Bearing in mind the max safe Psi is 46412 , that load showed 47698 Psi , this could be fine in some guns but stay safe im thinking .

7.6 of lilgun = 3289 fps . Psi was safe @ 43417
7.3 of lilgun = 3030 fps etc , just 0.1 grains too far makes a massive difference let alone 0.2

[Shuggy]

Here's another idea for you: the 0.22 TCM. Brass is supplied by Rock Island Armory in the US. To my mind this is just asking to be wildcatted down to .20 or .17. And it is based on the .223 case, so no problem finding a donor action.

[gunner]

God if i was an engineer , theres a gap in the market for small boltface 223/hornet sizes really short - short actions - i think ! Yes deffo that tcm is sweet , a 32 grain SBK or to 17 would be very interesting

[17 squirrel]

Hi Gunner. The barrel length and twist were guesses really as i am at the moment squirrel less. Am having a new one built on a CZ action by Mike Norris thats how i know he has the reamers. Had my variation thruogh about a month ago and Mike has the cooper, delivery of the new one is hopefully imminent.

As for bullets, i make my own and those are all i use. The 20g are an open tip very much like a Berger. The 25g are a lead tip very much like a remmington.

I very rarely shoot it over 100 yards and at least 90% of my shots are under 75 yards. If i need anything further i take the fireball.

I dont have QL or a use for it really,theres loads of proven data out there and thats what i use.

If you want somthing a little different have a look at a Garin surestrike i was very tempted.

[gbal]

If you enjoy these modest cartridges,and wonder about their rarity-the Landis et al 17 PeeWee ws around post WW!!based on the 30 carbine case,just as the much more modern 17Squirrel-the ballistics differ,an indicationof how much powders,and maybe bullets ,have improved...

 

Pistol case seemed the way to go-hence the 22Remington Jet Magnum around 1961,an improvement on the Harvey K chuck,a Hornet derivative.But the Jet was based on a tapered and necked down 357 Mag case.Marlin made the model 62 l/a for the Jet.

The 1960 256 Winchester Magnum (60g@2550,later 2760 from a 24 inch barrel) was also chambered in Marlin's 62,and by Universal Firearms in it's semi auto M1 carbine action 'Ferret". 256 was dscontinued in 1990.

 

Not comercial successes.

 

The 221 Remington Fireball did better,and is still a very competent sub 222 cartridge.I appeared in 11963,as a shortened 222rem to fit the Rem XP 100 bolt action pistol-a serious varmint number,based on a short light 600 action (600 became 700).(50g @2650,factory load). The 221FB (224 of course) has a small but positive following in UK-why not,it's a somewhat reduced 222Rem-one of the very best balanced 250y varmint cartridges ever.Way ahead of the 'traditional' 22 Hornet,in performance and design.

 

More on mini exotica tomorrow.....

gbal

[gbal]

(Some of yesterday's mini exotica) today:

 

Just to tidy up the Fireball-the 221 FB was necked to 17 by Remington and the 17Fb is probably more familiar in UK (221 FB was 50@2650,COAl 11.830,brass 1.40 inches).The 17FB pretty well legitimised the 17Mach4 i 2007.

Very similar cartridges are the 20 Vartag (Varmint-Target,Kindler)/300 Whisper and 6Whisper,aka the 6x35 PDW cartridge from Knight Armament.

The FB and Vartag are well developed,balanced competent cartridges,available in decent rifles.Question is,do they fill a niche the parent 222/3/17 does not do as well? Just liking them is enough,of course,and live with the reduced performance,as it may well be quite sufficient.

 

The 22CCm -Cooper CEntr Fire Magnum-came in the fine Cooper model 38 rifle,around 1992 and is essentially a cf version of the 22WRFM;1.160 case.Later necked down to the 17CCM,it would seem to be rather close to the 17 Hornady RFM,whose ammo problems stir all this up! Nice rifle,the cooper,but thee will be ammo supply issues,and of course,limited performance aka 17HRFM (150y on a good day).

 

The 5 mm Remington was revitalised revived with Aguila ammo(32@2600) but with only 52000 rifles produced (Rem 590/591 b/a) it's really 'unobtanium'-so the nifty Craig 5mm cf conversion bolt kit has the same limits-Eagle View Research took over kit/and maybe ammo?

 

The proprietary 22TCM-Tuason Craig (Micromag) is essentially anothe pistol design,with a rifle option of sorts. It's a shortened 5.56x45 NATO case,1.265 AOL. Research started with the 30 carbine case (remember the Pee Wee?) but gave only 40@1600fps; a same length 223 short gave 1700;and only by going to 1.265 was enough velocity obtained (that's the length of the 1911 magazine,as the design brief was tto compete with the FN 5.7x28 fiveseven cartridge,but in a 1911 platform.This gave 40gvmax @1750. The need for a high velocity,small bore pistol isn't compelling,but there it is. Baby Nambu come back...

There may be a '9R' version for yes,9mm magazines.Pistol ammo at least,was sslightly modife

ied for extraction in the planned platforms. Maybe an AR lower....There is a rifle-a Phillipines Armscor b/a,somewhat rough in the early version. Think some function issues,and more critically 'accuracy' like 5shots at 100y around 2.5",3 shots around 1 inch,5x5 at 50y,1 inch. (100 yard ES group spread was .63 to 1.75inches).Velocity was 2651 (not 2800 as claimed).

Probably better rifles could be made-sample seemed poor stock fit etc. And a very light truck/carry version might find use (replacing the Ruger Ranch-seems unlikely!!)

 

A decent rifle might make this a contender (oops-there were Contender barrels in many of the above) for a mid range varmint rifle,if the FB is too yesterday...

.256 Winchester anyone...(60@2800)-but recall it was in the Marlin 62 lever action,not exactly the tack driver's optimum platform....though good for the niche-light truck/opportunity rifle-but UK don't do Ranch guns-there's no ranches,you see !! :-)

 

222,Fireball,Hornet (modern).....or decent !7HMR ammo seem the practical options.

 

But there are others,and some (one) will appeal to someone,who just likes a challenge and something a bit differentin the getting there. I think I read that Velo Dog pistol brass can be .....errr reformed...now there is a real challenge (about as non PPC or PC as you can get-imagine a revolver to deal with dogs when cycling-well,they shouldn't be,should they! :-)

 

gbal