260,260ack or creedmoor

[Laurie]

Thanks again laurie, I seem to get the feeling to go the creedmoor way,defo between that and the 260, so say the creedmoor is what the 260 should of been.its mainly going to be a range rifle, no doubt it will go across the fields occasionally as does my 308.decisions decisions decisions.

 

 

Yes, decisions decisions!

 

While there's only Hornady factory brass for the Creedmoor, I'd probably go for the 260 or 6.5X47mm Lapua. Well, the Lapua would depend on the action to be used. If Savage (i/c single-shot PTA), Remy, Winchester 70 etc, I'd avoid the small primer Lapua with its tendency to crater and pierce primers if there's ANY play at all in the firing pin tip - bolt fit and/or the mainspring could be stronger.

 

They're all three of them excellent cartridges.

 

I will be looking at the trio and writing about them during 2014. I suspect that the rifles they're to be used in will play a bigger part in their performance than the cartridges themselves.

 

(The three rifles are:

 

6.5X47mm ...... Stolle Atlas single-shot mid-range Bench Rest and F-Class in a Shehane Tracker BR style stock.

.260 Rem ....... rebarrelled FN SPR tactical job in a McMillan A5 (selected heavy-duty Winchester 70 factory pre-64 type action)

6.5 Creedmoor .... Stiller Predator repeater in a TDF chassis tactical style stock.

 

The 260 is up and running and doing amazingly well with a 123gn Scenar load. The other two are works in progress.)

[John MH]

Get a .260, you will not be disappointed.

[pwinnall]

Wow, that's a lot of reading! I've got the reloading tools now but not sure of the powder and heads.Is 4350 a safe bet? I want to shoot McQueen's and deer stalking. I have a 26" barrel AE mkIII in .260

Thanks Phil

[John MH]

I use N160 and get very good results using Lapua Brass and 139 grain Scenars set off with a CCI BR-2 primer.

[Swarovski1]

My 308 is remy action with 26inch armalon barrel in a aics chassis, shoots real well, think aics mag is 2,900 so room to seat them out in 260 but no so that they are to tight a fit, am sure somebody knows a good seating depth and charge that works well.

[Swarovski1]

What oal have guys got your 260x140 grainers made too

[mildot]

Im loading 142gr SMK at COL 2.843" I was at 2.863" but get slightly tighter groups with shorter col...

[Swarovski1]

At that oal it will fit in aics mag but oal will depend on how tight chamber is reamed out.

[John MH]

Eh?

[Swarovski1]

I am not sure what I am talking about, saami spec for 260 rem is 2,800, mildot had cartridges made at 2,863, does that mean he has has his chamber throated longer to seat bullets out, saami spec is 2,800 does that mean I could seat any 6.5 bullet at 2,800 oal and they will chamber, I loaded some ammo for my 6,5 06 at 3,300 oal and they wouldnt chamber, the majority of manuals say saami is 3,340 even though there is no saami spec.i think my saami spec is shorter than that, how can I find out what saami my 6.5 06 is.

[DaveT]

I think that its best to regard chamber specs simply as an industry 'standard' with inbuilt tolerances that (hopefully) all factory ammo will chamber into quite readily....and then forget them.

 

By that last comment I mean that you should get a Hornady lock-and-load OAl gauge and dummy cartridge (or better still the Shooting Shed equivalent) and measure YOUR chamber with YOUR chosen bullet to see what maximum cartridge overall length your chamber can accommodate...thats all that really matters and it will depend on what reamer your 'smith used....also use a comparator which gauges off of the more consistent bullet ogive rather than the bullet tip which will vary considerably.

 

From that measure you can either decide to be limited by your magazines length capacity or play around with seating depths after selecting a load to aim for max accuracy.

[mildot]

Or to save stupid money just get a .260 case cut a slot in the neck to the shoulder, seat a bullet just in the neck and chamber the round. This will seat the bullet with it touching the lands. Withdraw gently and measure the length. This does the same thins as the lock and load deices but saves you a fortune!

 

My max col with the 142gr SMK is 2.867" every rifle will vary.

[Swarovski1]

I did measure the chamber the old way, just squash the neck a little insert the bullet an chamber, found that very inconsistant, ive got the oal gauge and comparator thats how and why I think or know chamber is shy of saami spec, loaded some 140gr nosler custom comp and some hunting heads at data oals and they wouldn't chamber, only the the pointy target ones did.

[dannywayoflife]

Buy the shed oal gauge will be more consistent than the "old" way

[DaveT]

I did measure the chamber the old way, just squash the neck a little insert the bullet an chamber, found that very inconsistant, ive got the oal gauge and comparator thats how and why I think or know chamber is shy of saami spec, loaded some 140gr nosler custom comp and some hunting heads at data oals and they wouldn't chamber, only the the pointy target ones did.

Just a thought ...have you also checked that your headspace is right in case its simply not got enough clearance at the shoulder?

[gbal]

I am not sure what I am talking about, saami spec for 260 rem is 2,800, mildot had cartridges made at 2,863, does that mean he has has his chamber throated longer to seat bullets out, saami spec is 2,800 does that mean I could seat any 6.5 bullet at 2,800 oal and they will chamber, I loaded some ammo for my 6,5 06 at 3,300 oal and they wouldnt chamber, the majority of manuals say saami is 3,340 even though there is no saami spec.i think my saami spec is shorter than that, how can I find out what saami my 6.5 06 is.

S,

Dave is right-many 'SAAMI" specs-I tend to use Barnes "Cartridges of the world" -are best considered as spot on for the cartridge case(brass)-unless of course,the chamber is deliberately different-eg 'tight neck' or 223 wylde,for special reasons.SAAMI specs for the brass are used by factory rifle makers to chamber their rifles,and factory ammo makers to ensure ammo chambers ok in different rifles/makes.

One possible confusion point is that such diagrams sometimes-not always,notice-will have a seated bullet and an OAL measure-as you note,in Barnes for the 260 it is "2.800"- this 'OAL" is best considered a spec for magazines,if considered at all.AS you also note,bullets are different-'more pointy'-and indeed different in length.

The issue-and what guages do-is determine just how long a loaded round can be,til it just engages the rifling.Throat length come into play here too-some makers deliberately ream throats longer(for long bullets) but there is no uniformity between makers.You might have exact chamber sizes,but different throat lengths.Good gauges measure to the 'ogive'-where the bullet achieves it's thickest diameter,and where Therefore it will engage with the rifling-the simple book "OAL' is no good for this,and it needs as good a measure as you can get.Stoney point,minimum-with micrometer attachment,not the old 'golf ball' with holes Sinclair add on;better if you can afford it.(just ramming a case/bullet in is pretty "inconsistent' as you say-so is loading ann empty sized case,with the bullet,blackening it with smoke,and gently chambering-the rifling will show as clean scratches when it engages-you can just seat further out/in and repeat til the scratches just vanish-that's you approx seating for that bullet just off the lands.A complication is that different bullets/rifles and shooters are tolerant of different seating depths-and a few thou may or not matter-or be noticed,on target-unless very precise shooting is done-so others data is no more than a guide for your rifle/bullet/expectations.

OK we need this measure as precise as possible,and it's worth repeating with a few bullets-yes,they can vary a little-and taking an average.Write it down-it's the 'just touchinglands' for your rifle and that bullet(not that weight of bullet-that makers bullet eg 260 140 SMK).With that ,if you wish you can play with slight variations in seating depth-ie a few thou 'jump' by seating the bullet that few thou deeper in the case(etc)...a click micrometer seater starts to pay for it's extra costs if you do this a lot.

Sorry this is quite long,but it just wasn't very clear from some comments just what was going on-and no doubt I have missed some points too-it takes a book-but such is well worth reading,if you want to play seriously and effectively. It may mean spending some 'silly money' (good guages,micro seater etc),but that minimises the risk of errrrr ...shall we say,unreliable resul,once you are into seating depth variations.

I would not be without my mitotpyo micrometer(digital,more idiot proof) when fine tuning handloods,but I don't use it to measure each log when I'm chainsawing! I'm sure the reverse also applies-get good measures when it really matter(.and not all log burners are the same size!)

 

Gbal

[Swarovski1]

I am ok with comparator etc, no probs measuring, how do I measure to see how long the throat is, I am no sure if that is a daft question.

[DaveT]

Only way I know of is a chamber cast ...unless your 'smith can get you the reamer specs.

[Swarovski1]

I probaly could find that out, what exactly do I ask

[DaveT]

I probaly could find that out, what exactly do I ask

There should be a reamer diagram available showing all relevant dimensions....either from your 'smith or his reamer supplier.

[DaveT]

Something like this

[gbal]

I am ok with comparator etc, no probs measuring, how do I measure to see how long the throat is, I am no sure if that is a daft question.

OK,let's try again-sorry if I missed your concern,somewhere along the "no SAAMI/SAAMI is" and 'tight chamber'(?) road.

Dave's suggestions are excellent.If you want to know what chamber/throat your wildcat has,then you need the smith's actual reamer measures-period!

If you 'just' want to load ammo,then follow Dave's other suggestion.You say you now have the appropriate tools.OK,all that you need to do is take a fired case and a bullet from the lot you want to load,and use Stoney point guage to find the length at which this case/bullet just touches the lands.Measure this length as accurately as you can,using good micrometer.That willbe the max "OAL" for that bullet in your chamber.If you load yyour ammo to that spec/length,it should chamber-though it's usually a good idea to seat the bullet a few thou deeper (ie 'OAL" a few thou shorter,to allow for smooth chambering/slight error in measures...If you want to play with seating depths,then you just seat a few more thou deeper/shorter....though that is fine tuning,and may not have a huge effect-some rifles.bullets are quite tolerant of small seating depth variation (as is eg factory ammo-which will chamber in all factory chambers).Load round by round at first and check each actually chambers appropriately.

Sorry again to spell it out,but if you are loading ammo that does not chamber,then something is wrong -it still seems to me,from your taking some wildcat(!!)'saami' measure as the gospel starting point for your rifle.Don't-wildcats are NOT SAAMI,by definition.

Just as an example,US across the course shooters using 223 :SAAMI AR 15s use lighter bullets at the short ranges,which are loadable of course to magazine fit (and chamber fine).They often like heavier-longer-bullets for longer range,but they typically have to single load these rounds- they do not fit-ie exceed -the magazine-but chamber ok -as will any bullet of the correct calibre-it's just that it will have to be further into the case -compressing the powder-and/or be very 'pointy'.....theoretically you could make a very long and very pointy bullet by sticking a needle in the Hollow Point of an ordinary bullet-please don't!!!-and it would chamber singly,despite its increased 'OAL''...._the actual bullet bearing surface remains the same length,where it contacts the rifling-the needle will never touch the lands/rifling...VLD shape bullets go a little way along that 'increased length ' path,for ballistic reasons

 

Anyhow,I hope you have some chambering ammo soon.(you can of course use a comparator,in addition-as it gives a more consistent measure,if you have one-in addition to the "OAL" as above,but just to get chambering ammo,the above should suffice.

If not,has any ammo ever chambered....etc...we go down different routes-it's not a deliberate "tight neck",is it(reamer/smith issue)-

though then a non 'neck turned to fit 'case would jam the length of the neck out of the chamber-very obvious-even without a bullet.

Were the cases you were using fired in that rifle etc etc....the more information,the easier to diagnose-esp in a wildcat,and it saves everyone --esp you-a lot of time!

Gbal

[Swarovski1]

The ammo I made that didnt chamber was made before I got the rifle back from rebarrelling,I had no idea what saami it was being made too, I made some ready to test, I picked it up on a 1000yd day at bisley, ideal place to shoot in and test what did chamber, those loads have been fine tuned since then, stepped down powder by 2grs and sat them back 15 fow, ive made some exellent ammo since, some wickedly accurate 1000yd 142gr smks with different powders, n160 and imr 4350, also some 120gr nos bal tips that can clover leaf which has taken several deer and a fox, I hope I havent mislead anybody, ive been reloading for nearly 14 years but I havent really read to much into it as alot of it I wouldnt do, most reloading data state 3,340 saami for 6.5 06, recently I noticed on nosler site saami was 3,440, mine I would say is shorter than the first one but not by much, I could load a 140gr vld at 3,340 oal that may chamber.

[Swarovski1]

I emailed Pacific tool n gauge and they emailed a reamer drawing showing dimensions but wouldnt have the foggiest ideal if it was the same as mine lol, I wouldnt have a clue how to put it onto this thread either, am crap on computers, I am just a surfer

[The Gun Pimp]

This thread is getting a bit silly.......

 

Swarovski1 - your rifle is your rifle - it's not my rifle or anyone else's rifle on this forum - it's your rifle! Period!

 

The chamber in your rifle is your chamber - the freebore, throat etc is peculiar to YOUR rifle. Your barrel will be different to my barrel and will thus exhibit different pressures.

 

Use your reloading dies to make your brass fit your rifle's chamber. Then, you seat your bullet to whatever length you choose - it might be magazine length, it might be touching the rifling. Your choice - get it too long for your chamber and it won't fit. It might fit my chamber but what use is that to you?

 

Every make of bullet will vary and thus measure differently and it's almost impossible (and pointless) to try to seat a bullet using measurements and reamer drawings.

 

If you are anywhere near me (Manchester) - I'll happily take you through the process. But, forget about SAAMI, reamer drawings and 'tight' chambers - whatever they are.