Civvie shooters getting the shaft again

[John MH]

Ronin

 

However, there is a great deal of mistrust of shooting organisations (from shooters) who have been sold down the river in the past and I’m referring to the pistol and semi-auto fiasco here in the case of the NRA and the huge amounts of "Best practice Policies" dealt out by BASC as another example. I'm not disagreeing here and the NRA knows it needs to do better. When semi-auto full bore rifles were banned the NRA did not have any recognised disciplines that required the use of that type of rifle, if they did and it was well supported there might have been more of an argument to keep them rather than roll over. To that end there are those in the NRA now that are working to increase the participation in Civilian Service Rifle, with a recognised supported discipline when the government try to take away anything other than a single shot target rifle they will be in a stronger position to fight it. The pistols were going to go no matter what, it was an election year and a knee jerk reaction sold to the public as solving gun crime was pretty much universally supported in parliament. The NRA are not entirely to blame for that one. The NRA also recognise that the discipline that books the most targets on Century range on a regular basis at a cost of nearly £5000 per annum is the HRA who all use magazine fed full bore rifles.

 

 

If the NRA want support and increased revenue, perhaps they should stand up and fight by way of retaining a sensible (and safe) ME limit rather than the proposed draconian restriction. That is what they are trying to do at the moment, lets keep fingers crossed and wait an see.

 

As someone else has pertinently mentioned if larger calibres (.30's - .50's) are safe for mil / police use, then it is most certainly safe for civilian use on appropriate (approved) land / ranges. The proposed ME restriction will equally apply to the military and police, its a range limitation not just a ME figure to be applied to civilians.

 

Call me a cynic, but I feel that the proposals smell of hidden agenda to me - as I have previously mentioned, compulsory testing / safety accreditation and the costs that go with it. Despite what it might smell of this is not a conspiracy aimed at taking the "good reason" away from target shooters.

 

By the way, i'm not having a go at you personally. Never entered my mind.

[Vermincinerator]

John,

Who or what are the HRA?

 

Ian.

[John MH]

John,

Who or what are the HRA? HRA Website

 

Ian.

[JR__]

John,

 

Not having a go at you or the military for that matter. In fact, whatever decision arrives, it won't affect me personally atall as I'll be residing in the States by then, reminiscing about my time in the UK while wiping down the USP .40. But the blood boils nonetheless. I don't see the NRA in this country today as effective in lobbying for the shooter as in the USA, partly due to the fact the government here over the years has been free to whittle away at gun ownership rights, numbing the population into submission. The more difficult it is for a person to own a gun, the less likely he will go thru the hassle to do so. The less likely he'll be a member of the NRA. The less effective the NRA becomes. No doubt the NRA could use more members, but how do they achieve that with the limitations and now non existing disciplines available? I know they are doing all they can, and I hope it does go well for the people that pay for the ranges. That's us by the way.

 

Off topic a bit, but the reason the NRA is so much more powerful in the states is because we have managed to sustain a healthy level of gun ownership across the populace. An example, this is a guess, but I bet there are more deer hunters in my home state of South Dakota(85,000+ deer licenses issued in 2006), than shooters in the entire UK. My home county(1 of 66) has a population of 3700, and issued 1100 licenses alone. Add all the states in, and that's a pretty loud voice for any lobbying representative. We can also deal directly with our elected representatives on these type issues rather than using the broad brush of the NRA, and do so regularly. We don't always win the fight, but government doesn't have a choice but to tread lightly and listen. States have more power regarding regulating firearms rules within their boundaries than central government, which means a little less of knee jerk reaction if something tragic happens on the other side of the country.

 

My beef with this latest attempt lies in the 'dangerous' precedent it sets, who is setting it, how the language will be presented, and the damage control thereafter. The rules may change across the board for many disciplines, maybe not all at once. When the MoD issues an ME limit on it's ranges, one argument I'd heard was, awae, but it won't affect private ranges. You may be surprised, if it's too much for MoD ranges, you think your private range will qualify? But hey, I don't shoot target at all, just deer and mr fox..Hah!This magic number of 3800J which no police force will comprehend, could very well turn into a list of calibres/cartridges they will not allow. Mmm, 300win mag, you must be mad! 30-06, I don't think so!! 7mm's larger than 7-08, 270's , some 6.5 calibres, all fall in this range. Anything which shoots bullets heavier than 150gr at a speed of more than 2850 falls in this category. 140gr at 3000max. 120gr at 3200 max. 95's at 3600 max. Even some muzzle loaders would fall into the category. And so it's ridiculous. If it's dangerous on 1000yd butts, just think how dangerous it is in an unregulated environment. It's a soundbyte waiting to happen. Are they then going to regulate ammunition to ensure it's safe and can't produce more than the magic 3800J? Can see that committee, phwoar, all these burn rates, pressures, one load falls under 3800J, but add 1 grain and your over the limit, far too much info to understand, what do we do? I know, bar handloading alltogether, that's the easiest cure, we've wanted to do that for a while anyway. Sounds silly now, but forewarned is forearmed. Slippery slope. This is why it is vital when the MoD places these limits on muzzle energy(because no matter what, they will impose a limit, probably spent millions on the research), they get their sums right.

 

 

 

JR

[John MH]

JR

 

Couldn't agree more.

 

The NRA in America is a powerful lobbying force, (I'm also a member as they regulate the High Power Rifle Classification System), and they also have the second amendment.

 

I was briefed by one of the main players in the NRA (UK) that the 3800J ME figure arrived at by the Land Ranges Safety Committee was a WAG (wild assed guess) based on something just above the figure for standard Nato 7.62 ball.

 

ME is not a very useful figure as, like you pointed out, it would put some muzzle loaders over the limit, my 6XC has more energy at 1200 yards than a 155gn 7.62 at 1000 yards but it doesn’t breach the 3800J limit. More work needs to be done to make the MOD understand the problem and satisfy their safety concern regarding the RDA templates and bullets falling outside.

 

John MH

[baldie]

Baldie

 

There unfortunately has been no "full bore" rifle shooting in the Olympics since the 1970's, the NRA have no say in the Olympics as it does not represent any disciplines shot.

 

What I do understand so far, please correct me if I’m wrong, is that all the non-shotgun events are going to take place at a state of the art facility that is going to be built at Woolich. Shortly after the last Gold Medal has been presented the facility will be “decommissioned” and returned to its former use (derelict state). Again if you want the NRA to have a say increase its lobbying power. I think this Olympic approach is crass; all the shooters I know think it’s crass but the government doesn’t give a dam because even if the NRA says it’s crass they only speak for a few thousand of the electorate.

 

John MH

 

The input into the olympics, the NRA are going to have, is blatantly obvious John. They are going to supply all the range officers to run all the shooting ranges, including pistol. That absolutely disgusts me, and probarbly most other target shooters in this country, and i wasn,t a pistol shooter really.

The olympics shouldn,t even be here, because of the gb pistol ban, we DO NOT qualify to hold them, as we cannot guarantee " the right to practise, and participatate in the chosen sport, without hindrance", also any building put up for the said sport, must be left, "as a legacy to the sport" they fully intend to demolish woolwich, as you rightly say.

The NRA could increase its membership tenfold overnight, by announcing they will be boycotting the olympics in every way, not supplying RO,s and will be organising demonstrations [like every one wants, who was an ex pistol shooter] whilst the olympics is on. My money is sat here waiting, but it will only go to an organisation which activley protects my sport and livleyhood.

The NRA actively supported the semi auto ban, it went a lot further than just not having disciplines which supported their use, and those people have long memories.

[John MH]

The input into the olympics, the NRA are going to have, is blatantly obvious John. They are going to supply all the range officers to run all the shooting ranges, including pistol. That absolutely disgusts me, and probarbly most other target shooters in this country, and i wasn,t a pistol shooter really.

 

I think you are getting the NRA confused with the NSRA, they may be both based at Bisley but they are not the same thing.

 

NSRA Olympic Proposals

[Ronin]

Thanks

 

nice to no shouting so far

[baldie]

Yes, i understand the difference John, but whilst being a separate organisation, the nsra still comes under the "Wing" of the NRA, especially when the nsra is based on NRA soil, eg Bisley. The ro,s will be nra qualified RO,s ,not nsra staff.

To be perfctly even handed, NEITHER organisation should be having anything whatsoever to do with the games, and that includes ALL our shooters, especially Mick Gault.

What a media cout , Mick boycotting the games would be...the most gold medal decorated commonwealth athlete in history.

All this talk of giving a fortnights dispensation for athletes to shoot here, stinks, if they can have them back, then so can the other 57,000 pistols shooters, or none at all. To be honest, i dont know how they will have the brass neck to shoot.

I still reckon the NRA has a golden opportunity here, to unite all shooters, and grow a collective , massive, pair of broccoli.

[JR__]

JR

 

Couldn't agree more.

 

The NRA in America is a powerful lobbying force, (I'm also a member as they regulate the High Power Rifle Classification System), and they also have the second amendment.

 

I was briefed by one of the main players in the NRA (UK) that the 3800J ME figure arrived at by the Land Ranges Safety Committee was a WAG (wild assed guess) based on something just above the figure for standard Nato 7.62 ball.

 

ME is not a very useful figure as, like you pointed out, it would put some muzzle loaders over the limit, my 6XC has more energy at 1200 yards than a 155gn 7.62 at 1000 yards but it doesn’t breach the 3800J limit. More work needs to be done to make the MOD understand the problem and satisfy their safety concern regarding the RDA templates and bullets falling outside.

 

John MH

 

John,

 

I was wondering when someone would bring that up, well done. They are looking at range limits from the wrong end of the range. You need to determine the TERMINAL energy for a safety zone.

 

I did some quick computations on Exbal and a calculator, probably not too precise, but close enough to make a point, taking for granted I think I used the correct BC. As I stated earlier certain bullet/velocity ratios which would lie just at current proposals, let's look at them again from 1000 yd, hell I'll go to 2K. Muzzle velocities are: 95 gr @ 3600fps, 120gr @ 3200fps, 139gr @ 3000, 155gr @ 2850fps, and the 250gr @ 3000fps

 

bullet weight----------velocity muzzle/vel 1000 yds(fps)----------energy muzzle/energy 1000 yds(J)-------energy 1600yd(J)------------energy 2000yd(J)

 

95 -------------------------------- 3600/971 ---------------------------------- 3718/270 -------------------------------- 139 ----------------------- 94

 

120 -------------------------------- 3200/1574 --------------------------------- 3711/898 -------------------------------- 386 ----------------------- 287

 

139 -------------------------------- 3000/1625 ---------------------------------- 3778/1108 -------------------------------- 523 ---------------------- 385

 

155 -------------------------------- 2850/1235 ---------------------------------- 3802/714 ---------------------------------- 381 ---------------------- 294

 

250 -------------------------------- 3000/1761 --------------------------------- 6794/2341 -----------------------------------1159--------------------- 817

 

 

This is the sort of that which promotes growth and vigour they should be looking at. But then again, if they don't understand the concept of physics to begin with, this might actually be detrimental to the cause. I hope to hell the NRA has 'experts', not just boffins, but experts with some common sense.

 

JR

[brown dog]

The SMEs at the SACS Warminster

 

John,

 

Largely agree with your posts, but:

 

'SASC' and 'SME' in the same phrase?! An oxymoron surely?! These are the fellows who couldn't / can't hack it in battalion life and, until very recently, were limited to an understanding of ballistics no deeper than '2,2,3,4,3,5,6,7,8' :)

 

..hence their biff ME limit ("wasn't in the pamphlet sir!" )

[Guest 308Panther]

The NRA in America is a powerful lobbying force, (I'm also a member as they regulate the High Power Rifle Classification System), and they also have the second amendment.

 

 

Hate to say this JohnMH,

 

But the American NRA is not as powerful as you would like to think it is...And not every person who was a gun,wether its,Rifle,Pistol,or Shotgun is a member....

You dont need to be a member to own,shoot or hunt with a firearm over here.

And the Liberals keep chipping further and further into the 2nd Amendment with every

passing election as the politician switches sides once voted in.

In my home State of Wisconsin,I seen an Attorney General become Govenor just from the

vote being carried from 2 cities,Milwaukee and Madison....and this guy is as Anti as they get.

 

 

308Panther

[JR__]

308,

 

Yeah, Wisconsin has it's fair share of liberals....Remember in '92 I visited U of W when checking out universities my senior year in high school, and I tell you the freakshow leftist brigade really convinced me to stick to good ol' conservative South Dakota. You get out of Milwaukee and Madison, the people are half normal mind.

 

NRA isn't as effective as we'd like, panther, but it holds a hundred times more clout in DC than the NRA-UK does in London-town. And our voice without the NRA is a lot louder than it is here in the UK.

 

JR

[Guest 308Panther]

308,

Yeah, Wisconsin has it's fair share of liberals....Remember in '92 I visited U of W when checking out universities my senior year in high school, and I tell you the freakshow leftist brigade really convinced me to stick to good ol' conservative South Dakota. You get out of Milwaukee and Madison, the people are half normal mind.

 

NRA isn't as effective as we'd like, panther, but it holds a hundred times more clout in DC than the NRA-UK does in London-town. And our voice without the NRA is a lot louder than it is here in the UK.

 

JR

 

Freakshow Leftist Brigade? Thanks for the laugh.

That is describing Milwaukee's Fashionable East Side mildly....

 

Your voices may well be louder with out the UK NRA....From what I have been able to gather of things.

It takes money to belong to a Range Club and NRA membership along with a rifle and gear all at an inflated price.

 

Too many are using the exclusitivity as a status rank.

 

Owning a firearm shouldnt be about exclusivtivity,neither should be where its used.

 

Private Buttercup can make the same mistake shooting 100 yrds,300,500 or 1000 yrds.

just the same as anyone else.

 

They are trying to put a gaurantee on something that is un-gauranteeable.

Every bullet fired has a chance of ricochetteing..no matter the distance involved,no matter the caliber,

Trigger experience time, or anything else.

 

308Panther

[John MH]

Latest From the NRA:

 

Muzzle Energy Agreement

 

Following a meeting with the MoD today the NRA is pleased to announce that there has been an agreement to raise the Muzzle Energy limit to 4500J with immediate effect.

This will mean that all shooters using Target Rifles, Match Rifles and most F Class Rifles will be able to shoot as normal.

 

Anyone using ammunition that exceeds the 4500J limit will be unable to shoot on an MoD range until new conditions have been formally agreed between the military and the NRA in mid-January 2008.

 

Going forward the MoD has set a number of new conditions around the use of their ranges. These demand that the Association work in close partnership with other bodies and our clubs to ensure we meet the requirements of the military to guarantee we can keep you all using ranges as normal.

 

As soon as we have had an opportunity to fully consider the proposal from the MoD, we will inform you of its content and the measures we will need to introduce to meet the MoD's expectations.

 

This represents a major achievement for the NRA. The previously proposed muzzle energy limit of 3800J represented a significant threat to our sport which has been overcome by fast and effective cooperation between the NRA and the MoD.

 

Glynn Alger

Secretary General

 

Posted 28 November 2007

 

There are still negotiations going on and that ME limit may be further raised in the New Year, we'll have to wait and see.

 

John MH

[Vermincinerator]

Thats excellent news but on a more sour point it just goes to show what can be done if your finances were going to be severly compromised.

Its a pity that the rights of semi-auto rifle and pistol shooters were not pursued with such vigour.

 

Ian

[JR__]

It isn't as big of news as it looks. Is a start, but an arbitrary number nonetheless... Looks like the team GB F-classers are going to have to rethink their strategy and equipment for the world's at Bisley..It's a start, at least they budged, but I wouldn't be patting anyone on the back just yet. I just can't get my head around using muzzle energy as the 'safety factor', as it means little to range safety downrange if the bullet isn't going to get there. If they used the Connaught model of BC/muzzle velocity and then factor energy at the terminus(or limit to calibres under 8mm), it would make much more sense, to me.

 

JR

[John MH]

JR

 

Why don't you put your thoughts to the NRA, if there is a well reasoned argument there it could be presented as a possible formula to resolve the safety concerns. I totally agree that ME is not a good down range performance indicator but it is very simple to work out and measure, that may be why they have picked it.

 

John MH

[ds1]

Ian,

 

Agree with you 100%

 

David.

[Guest 308Panther]

I just can't get my head around using muzzle energy as the 'safety factor', as it means little to range safety downrange if the bullet isn't going to get there. If they used the Connaught model of BC/muzzle velocity and then factor energy at the terminus

JR

 

I agree, What is the fascination for using muzzle velocity as a determing factor of down range performance?

Even over here some of our indoor ranges use it...

The indoor pistol range I frequent has a limit of 2,000 fps.

I understand "they" need a base line....But

Every rifle/pistol is slightly differant.

Barrel length will play into it as well as action type.

Even taking a reading with chrono as little as 12 inches off the muzzle will produce

numbers that are differant.

People using commercially made ammo will have differant results from

the people using handloads.

Changing something as simple a primer or brand of primer,bullet weight by as little as 3 grs

can produce totally differant results.

Use of a mod or brake has an effect also.

 

308Panther

[ds1]

not sure if the mV - Joule thing is a silly european idea. The reason for saying that is my 50m range has a 7000 Joule limit (presume at the muzzle) and also calibre limit of 9.3mm rifle and 50 cal pistol (unless I want more). The idea my be borrowed from elsewhere - I`m guessing europe.

 

David.

[6mmBR]

Just had an email from our chairman of Brecon Rifle Club that the ban on .50 Browning use on the Sennybridge ranges has now been lifted.

Dave

[Guest 308Panther]

That is good news!!!!

 

308Panther

[John MH]

Hi All

 

For those that are interested there is a good article in this 2007 NRA Journal on "High Performance" projectiles, the article illustrates some of the potential problems face by the MOD range operating and administering bodies and highlights some of the risks posed by those shooters pushing the envelope.

 

NRA Journals

 

John MH

[Redfox]

Interesting read and as always a great deal more to it than first meets the eye.

Redfox