Rumours about BASC

[Mike]

To quote:

 

"Inaccurate and alarmist reports have appeared in the shooting press and on email concerning BASC's position on lead ammunition. They misrepresent BASC’s position and the current situation. BASC would like to take the opportunity to put the record straight."

 

See -

 

http://psa.bizhosting.com/whats_new.html

[bluebell]

I think this is far wider than BASC there has been a lot of research in to what happens to a bullet on impact with quarry. The result is that unless you are shooting for pest control i.e. not to eat it or it is something the size of a red deer there is a fair amount of contamination of the meat with lead. It is therefore highly likley that anything that will enter the human food chain will have to be shot with something else.

 

In addition there is also some evidence that suggests that shooting shot gun over crops introduces a fairly high element of lead in to the crop. Hence it is now recomended that clay shoots etc dont shoot over standing crops.

 

Whilst I would be the first to fight against 'big brother' if there really is a significant health risk then I dont have a problem. having seen the xrays of bullet fragments in a muntjac the spread of particles was way bigger than I would ahve expected.

[whoowhoop]

I am very concerned with just how much we can trust BASC to be "the voice of shooting"

They have never stood up for us yet.

Don't forget their misguided approval of the first draft Protection of Wild Mammals Act, which omitted the vital reference to cruelty

They accepted the terms of the General Licence which meant you cannot "enjoy" shooting woodpigeon, and would have meant decoying would have been an offence

They accepted the change from inspecting traps "between one hour before sunrise to one hour after sunset" to "every 24 hours" a heck of a lot of difference when you have a trap line

They stuffed us all badly ( and showed their true colours) with the so called "gamekeepers amendment" to the Hunting Act despite there being a far better National Working Terrier Federation Code of Conduct in place and adopted by all practioner groups - except basc

They have gone against the advice of game farmers with the regulations against caged bird systems

 

And we are meant to trust them over a possible lead shot ban????

They wanted to be the only "pro shooting" group at the table for this one.

 

John Swift stood up at the last Brighton Rally before the hunting ban and said that BASC was right behind the hunting community. I know because I was there.

But he omitted to say just exactly how far behind that was.

Basc hasn't lost a battle yet - it hasn't fought one.

[Redfox]

Well taking things to the opposite extreme, i has been announced that NRA and the MOD are banning monolithic bullets ( like solid copper or brass etc) as there is too high a risk of riccochets with them, and the FC are thinking it over too.

Heaven help us with these idiots and as for BASC I was in it when it was WAGBI and about ten yrs ago realised they were a bunch of complete T%£$%rs and I was wasting my hard earned money filling their pockets with big wages, not from that day on!!!

Redfox

[Zaitsev]

On the subject of x rays: An x ray cannot tell the difference between a partical of gilding metal (jacket), a lead particle and in many cases a bone splinter. x rays without interpretation are an excellent tool for those who would wish to mislead..

 

On the subject of research: much of the 'lead' research is funded by animal rights/preservation/conservation organisations. I have yet to see any research carried out by a pro shooting body. The source of the funding dictates the direction of the study. The results may well be open and above board. However, what was the question that was asked of the research in the first place?

 

 

BASC has commissioned zero studies into this subject and has already thrown in the towel.

 

You would have to question why this is given that Sweden beat a lead ban some years ago...

 

Shame on the lot of them. It's time for a change.

[baldie]

I am very concerned with just how much we can trust BASC to be "the voice of shooting"

They have never stood up for us yet.

Don't forget their misguided approval of the first draft Protection of Wild Mammals Act, which omitted the vital reference to cruelty

They accepted the terms of the General Licence which meant you cannot "enjoy" shooting woodpigeon, and would have meant decoying would have been an offence

They accepted the change from inspecting traps "between one hour before sunrise to one hour after sunset" to "every 24 hours" a heck of a lot of difference when you have a trap line

They stuffed us all badly ( and showed their true colours) with the so called "gamekeepers amendment" to the Hunting Act despite there being a far better National Working Terrier Federation Code of Conduct in place and adopted by all practioner groups - except basc

They have gone against the advice of game farmers with the regulations against caged bird systems

 

And we are meant to trust them over a possible lead shot ban????

They wanted to be the only "pro shooting" group at the table for this one.

 

John Swift stood up at the last Brighton Rally before the hunting ban and said that BASC was right behind the hunting community. I know because I was there.

But he omitted to say just exactly how far behind that was.

Basc hasn't lost a battle yet - it hasn't fought one.

 

What an excellent post.

I wish i was as eloquent.

 

I would not trust BASC, as far as i could throw them, and if it means that John Swift, at their head, is representing us all....then we are well and truly f***ed.

 

They didn,t give a damn about working dogs, and they also did a nice little deal on primers in the vcr bill.

 

Whoowhoop, are you a hunt servant ? i was the pennine whip for 6 years. Pm if you want buddy.

[whoowhoop]

What an excellent post.

I wish i was as eloquent.

 

I would not trust BASC, as far as i could throw them, and if it means that John Swift, at their head, is representing us all....then we are well and truly f***ed.

 

They didn,t give a damn about working dogs, and they also did a nice little deal on primers in the vcr bill.

 

Whoowhoop, are you a hunt servant ? i was the pennine whip for 6 years. Pm if you want buddy.

Hi Baldie,

 

We have probably met then in the past. I did terriers for a pack down south for 15 seasons, was fell and Moorland rep for a few years and still sit as NWTF secretary.

I have been in pest control for over 30 years.

When I was a full time 'keeper a long while back, I had anti trouble on a shhot day and got arrested , as the anti's knew me from the past.

As a member I phoned basc when I got out of the cells and was advised to " get a solicitor".

BFSS went to work on my behalf.

Never paid basc a penny since.

They have done sweet FA for me and anyone I know.

My fear is they think that a Labour governement will allow them to be the licensing authorty when we all have to take tests to keep our guns.

As for Christopher Graffius, well he would have only had spaniels with docked tails.The NWTF through Barrie Wade mostly, kept the docking for terriers and HPR's

I used to know Paul Steel, when he was at Pennine, as well as Will and Wendy Pinkney.

I still get up to Wales for some of the Pennine tours, and have been to quite a few of the singing nights around the country.

[baldie]

Aye, we have moved in the same circles my friend.

 

Will Pinkney is my son,s Godfather.

 

Haven,t seen Wendy since they split unfortunatly, but still see her sister now and again, when i,m in the dales/lakes.

 

Haven,t seen Steely, since the day he left for Canada however.

 

The good times will come back again i think.

[alled12]

To say this has me bothered would be the understatement. I am currently a member of this group, when this came up in a number of magazines I was to say a little bit concerned. If you look on pigeon shooting forum. Quite a lively debate. Prompted by this I gave them a call and had a lengthy discussion with them about this. I am by trade a soil & Hazardous waste guy in the Waste Management Industry. I have dealt with some pretty unpleasant stuff including some rather entertianing soils for disposal in my time. What concerns me is the science that is being put forward and the fact that it would appear this commitee was prompted by the RSPB request to Defra. I have dealt with Defra and the EA on numerous occasions, they really dont seem to know there arse from there elbow on a lot of stuff.

 

The original rationale for this commitee is some scientific evidence on condors from the USA and also a number of duck breeds that suffered from lead poisoning. There are not a huge number of scientific studies on this, the problem with ducks is they shovel there bills in the mud where lead shot can reside in marshes and wetlands. They then grind these lead pellets in their crops and the resulting powder lead then enters the blood stream causing a toxic response in there body. Favourable results from bans on the use of lead shot over wetlands in the USA. I will find the study if anyone wants them. So banning lead over wetlands was a good idea. Soctland got the legislation right, wildfowl shot over grassland and no wetland habitats lead should be allowed.

 

Now on to the next problem birds of prey. THis is the reason behind the California ban on lead, COndors like most birds of prey have a tendency to enter carrion through the most convient method, the bullet hole or opening. When they do this they tend to encounter lead flakes which get into there intestinal system and if they do not have a sufficient calcium will get into there blood stream causing toxic effects. Now no study has ever been carried out in the UK on any birds of prey found dead in the UK. That is not to say it hasnt happened. But no evidence is in the public domain of wild birds of prey dieing of this, that I know of.

 

Before anybody thinks I am pro a lead ban I will start with my thoughts. Firstly it is unlikely that a bird will collect lead of the ground as either a rifle bullet or falling shot will imbed itself in the ground probably to deep for a bird to peck it up. The standard inert landfill rate for lead, now this is sort of landfill that is used to restore land for agricultural use and a variety of other things and not the sort where your household waste goes these facilities are purely for soil. Normally you would expect an acceptance criteria of between 300 and 600mg per kilo of soil of lead. Let me stress this is the aceptable level. My thoughts on the lead issue here is that it would have to be very heavily contaminated with lead shot to hit these levels. We already allow crops to be grown on land that has various levels of lead contamination amongst other heavy metals and interesting chemicals.

 

The second issue that came up in my discussion was the possibility of contamination of the meat by lead, this was mainly a discussion about shotguns not rifles. While lead passing through the body will leave a residue it is open to debate as to how much is left work needs to be done hear to establish this. Lead poisoning of human beings is an interesting toxicological proposition it enters the body through the same place as calcium. The food standards authority is not that concerned about lead as there is not a huge amount of game eaten and we are not facing a raft or poisoning deaths from lead. The generations do not appear to have suffered from lead poisoning and they ate alot more Game than the current a generations.

 

I have many more issues with this but I notice that my post is starting to get a little long. So I will conclude with a serious problem with this concept. The lack of suitable alternatives that behave in the same way as lead and that cost the same. The bans that have taken place in the USA have been restricted to hunting, I get the feeling that this ban will try to include target shooting. There are at present just looking at midways list very few if any copper target bullets exist. The cost of lead substitue bullets ie Barnes is higher than for most other types of hunting bullet. In some cases twice the price, not fair on the shooter. For vermin we are seeing some new ones but the fact that some states in the USA that had bans have now over turned them is slowing down developments in these fields.

 

I would suspect that if the terminator gets ousted at the next election the next person coming in in california will be a pro shooter, the lead ban will probably be revoked. This will cause us more problems bullets will not get developed no need in there biggest market. Shotgun shooters would be the worst effected the only cheap alternative to lead is steel. Lots of clay grounds will not allow this to be used for fear of riccochet and the fact that the majority of these cartridges use plastic wads. Steel can not be used in all guns puts alot of people with older guns out of shooting, or they have to buy tungsten or bismouth which are £25 per box. WIth HSE inclined towards the ridiculous concept of riccochets banning lead would close down a number of clay grounds. The minority groups would suffer severly, by these I mean the black powder cartridge rifle shooters who can only use lead cast bullets in there rifles, gallery rifle semi wadcutters, Black powder shotgun & classic shotgun users.

 

There is also an issue coming out about lead in water from the EU this could pose a problem for rain water run off from shooting grounds. This ban on lead is only the tip of the Iceberg, Denmark & Sweden already have bans, Germany is considering revoking a ban on lead as it is causing a problems to logging and generally wrecking the forests. Steel shot is not actually steel they are iron matrices, this includes tin, which I am afriad to say is toxic to the human body. Chrome used to line barrels for shooting steel is very nasty a ban on Chromium use in Europe would cause a load of problems.

 

Gentlemen and Ladies we are going to face a lot of battles over the next two decades this is the first. There are also issues for organic farmers, the supermarkets could kick up a stink about lead. The simple answer is there is no viable suitable alternatives at this time there is very little data to support the case for banning lead for all shooting.

 

IF you shoot no matter what your feelings on lead we have to stop this, remember what happened with pistols. United we can stand firm in this debate, divided we will fall and our sport will go with it. Sorry for the length of this post and I could have go on but I hope you find it of some use.

[Elwood]

Alled, A very interesting and informative post, thanks.

[Laurie]

Alled12's post is dead on re this matter. I had a long conversation with a Yorkshire based DEFRA field stations scientist who is also a TR shooter over this issue late last year and we have a problem looming, target shooting as well as field.

 

Despite people saying there is no research ongoing here, DEFRA has set up a scientific working group looking at it, not just lead per se, because copper, zinc, and other metals used in ammunition are regarded as potentially toxic, and there are additives / contaminants such as arsenic and antimony in lead alloys.

 

The California lead ban / Assembly Bill 821 was as Alled12 says led by the deaths of young Californian Condors that had been bred in captivity and released into the wild, which died from eating contaminated meat in medium game species that had been lost by the hunter, butchered on site leaving other bits behind. The meat has tiny shards of jacketed bullet lead cores imprtegnating it after bullet expansion and break-up. My scientist friend says this is an issue for specialist carrion eaters like the Condor because their digestive systems have evolved to cope with bacteria-rich rotting meat that would kill most species. As a result food goes through their systems very fast but is subjected to exceptionally corrosive and strong acids / stomach juices to break the food down quickly and extract the nutrients. This dissolves lead too and sees it ingested in large enough quantities to kill fit young birds in a year or less after release, hence the lead-ban in selected areas where Condors are found.

 

I don't know if this carrion eating stomach acid issue affects our scavenging species, and this is one of the questions the DEFRA group is looking at. The conservationists read each others' papers and go to international conventions of course, and already want to use this as a stick to beat feildsports with.

 

HOWEVER ........ and here's the killer! My DEFRA contact says the real threat to all shooting is improved heavy metal detection methods. Recently developed techniques mean that tiny trace elements of heavy metal can be identified in tests and simply wouldn't have shown up 10 years ago. It's not just animal / bird remains we're talking about - soil and water too. He says the rule book is going to have to be completely rewritten about what is acceptable / safe or not in the light of lead showing up all over the place that was never reckoned on before thanks to the sensitivity of the new methods. The conservationists and environmentalists are of the view that if you can see it at all, there's too much, and action to stop the pollution has to be taken. Nobody knows what the long-term effects of these tiny dosages are and many people want to apply the precautionary principle.

 

The other issue is water / wet / marshy areas where lead and other heavy metal pollution has been found to be spread by water farther than anybody believed thanks to these new sensitive tests. This has already affected target shooting in some European countries, especially Finland where every town had a local militia ranges, and many were stilll in use until recently by target shooters. Many ranges have been declared as Severely Polluted Sites and closed down on public safety grounds, owners charged huge amounts for compulsory clean-ups. Finland is particularly affected because of its Swiss-like citizen militia movement with the old USSR next door and target shooting plus game shooting national sports, plus it being the land of 100,000 lakes, lots of water, wet ground, marshes etc.

 

The MoD here has also been approached over this issue and is alarmed at the possible implications if such standards are adopted in the UK. It has already been asked on its views on compulsory no-lead ammunition and says the lead core FMJ is here to stay. We couldn't afford infantry in an all copper bullet world and there are big implications for weapon and ammo designs and effective ammo-range as well as costs, so we have a government ally here. As my DEFRA friend says, if lead is banned, another pressure would simply and immediately arise to investigate copper and copper alloys. One of the things the scientists are looking at is the effect of these metals on the environment and wildlife. There is a view that the Governator and his Assembly Bill for the Condore may have solved one 'problem' but the Californians could well find out in a few years time that it's created a new and possibly even greater one!

[baldie]

The lead shot ban saved a lot of swans, didn,t it ? The survivors now hit power lines more frequently, and those that survived that are being bludgeoned to death by the immigrants and eaten.

 

Why is the government and DEFRA not addressing these two problems ?

 

Simple....we are the soft option.

 

We are also our own worst enemy. Whilever shooters continue to buy barnes bullets etc, they will continue to develope them.

 

STOP BUYING THEM !!!!!!!!!

[alled12]

Laurie your right about the testing. When I worked in London on soils, testing takes two forms, WAC test which done on the leaching charateristics of the soil using water and a standard soil analysis which uses a solvent to remove the contaminants. The test show up contaminants at anything down in some cases to nanograms per litre of Kg that is 1x10-9 of gram. Very small. We regularly saw lead levels of around 400 to 500mg per kg of soil from any number of sites in that area. What a lot of people dont know is that london clay has an affinity for Arsenic so you see elevated levels of this in soil sample from any regions with an underlyinmg strata of london clay. However in light of this Inert landfills, these accept soil and stones, concrete etc, but nothing that degrades reflect our knowledge of the soils in locality. Alot of htese sites are used to restore farm land after quarrying socrops will be grown on this soil. House developers use it to create estates, there is one massive one in Dartford at the moment next door to Blue water which is being restored for housing its an old chalk quarry.

 

My main concern is that while the Americans will take the ban on lead to a certian point they wont jeapordise the sport altogether. So there will be exemptions for target shooting and collectables and guns unsuitable for the modern bullet materials. Obviously these will not be allowed for hunting in lead free areas but they can still be fired at the range, it is the lesser of two evils. I get the feeling that if the various NGEO's can push Defra they will try to get lead use banned totally, rendering a number of people unable to continue this great sport.

 

We have been waiting for a while for the Environment Agency to publish new guidelines on soil restoration for sites. This where a developer wishes to retain soil onsite for landscaping. Something similar is going to happen at the olympics. We did have a set of guideline figures but they are going to be replaced, however they are still in use due to the lack of new info from the EA. They are called CLEA guidelines and link is at the bottom of this write up. While I dont think a ban is imminent, I do believe we have a fight on our hands, what we must bare in mind is this. Game shooting in all its forms stalking etc is worth 1.6 billion pounds to the exchequer. This is no small amount fo money. This doesnt include target shooting of any sort. I think including this would probably move it over 2 billion mark. Thats a lot of money and a lot of clout in the governments ear.

 

We need to keep this arguement focused on raptors rather than soils, as the info available on this is minimal and I am aware that BASC are going to get some studies carried out on this. The other thing is it is controllable. If there is a problem then shot species can be removed from the field even if only to thrown in the bin, ie rabbit control. The green left after a deer is gralloched should have little contamiantion from a bullet strike, providing the person can shoot lol. So that should not cause problems. This is a battle that can be fought and won, but sticking together and coming at it as one unified group is important.

 

Defra are a government funded agency and you no who's budget will get slammed if the government loses revenue. While I am not convinced BASC have our best interest at heart, I intend to keep on top of them. The Countryside Alliance have already set there position lead ban out of the question. I will be encouraging BASC to stick to there position which is a lead ban is out of the question. Phone them if your a member and make your point directly to them dont sit back and moan if this happens and we havent lifted a finger. This is our oppurtunity to give the greenies a little bit of a bloody nose. Remember as well this is yet to become a political issue no parties are interested, lets keep it that way. Politicians are the worst animals for things like this.

 

By the way some of you might be shocked at the quantities of these heavy metals that can be in your vegetable patch. Dont shoot the messenger please.

http://sanaterre.com/guidelines/clea.html

[Laurie]

My main concern is that while the Americans will take the ban on lead to a certian point they wont jeapordise the sport altogether. So there will be exemptions for target shooting and collectables and guns unsuitable for the modern bullet materials. Obviously these will not be allowed for hunting in lead free areas but they can still be fired at the range, it is the lesser of two evils. I get the feeling that if the various NGEO's can push Defra they will try to get lead use banned totally, rendering a number of people unable to continue this great sport.

 

Yes,

 

that's my DEFRA scientist's fear too. I agree with you that the argument needs to be confined within the shot species issue. Since the RSPB, PETA, WWF etc aren't making a lot of noise about it suggests it's a peripheral issue for most raptor and predatory species and is limited to true specialist carrion eaters like condors and vultures.

 

Our real problem is the one that afflicts all shooting activities - the obsessive risk-avoidance amongst the population. Of course, the biggest single risk to most people is crossing the road or driving, but somehow everybody wants shooting banned to avoid another Hungerford or Dunblane, but their car is somehow 'different'!

[alled12]

Got to agree with you Laurie with regard to the NGEO's at the moment. It must be inccumbent upon them to prove that a large number of raptors have died in this country as a result of lead poisoning brought about through the consumption of lead shot or bullet. This is going to be monumentally difficult to prove. The main problem is finding the dam corpses, nature will have its way. Bigger worry is the supermarkets worrying about lead in shot game. Well my position take it or leave it. Where ever you get from it is likely to have been shot with lead.

 

I agree as well that it is this safety first policy, HSE, risk assesment atmosphere which is causing the problem. Result of a labour government, we can clean it up cost effectively and people should be allowed to go on shooting. At least the MOD is onside that will cause Defra a few problems. Particularly as a number of the larger ranges are either owned, share the same safety zone or used by the MOD for Practice. Although the US military no uses tungsten cores. We will have to watch this space. Keep fighting it will be worth it in the end.

[Chris-NZ]

An excellent thread.

I've "scanned" some of this and fwd'd to some prominent local Fish and Game councillors.

 

Lead shot was banned here for waterfowl about 3 years ago and there's now quite a backlash after duckshooters have seen the ineffectiveness/crippling effect of steel shot. It has been estimated over 30% of shooters (illegally) used lead on ducks last season.

 

Chris-NZ

[shrek]

I have been using non toxic shot for ducks and now for about 8 years, far before the ban ever came into scotland, mainly because i found a drake pintail on his death bed, with obvious symtoms of lead poisoning, from that day on i have never fired a lead cartridge over inland water.

 

Chris-NZ regarding the ineffectiveness of steel shot, i donno how you guys are fixed for it over there but i agree it was real crap the first stuff that came out in the UK, to slow, badly formed shot, however new high velocity steel along with an adjusted shooting technique and own personal restaraint, and i may got shot down for saying it, but i personally find steel more effective killer than lead.

 

Finally i want to add my feelings about BASC, i dont want to be pigeon holed into this one, i am a proud supporter of BASC Scotland, i know most of the basc scotland team personally and i know how hard they work, they certainly dont see the big pay cheques. As for Voice of shooting, they have done more for shooting than most of us realise, certainly on the wildfowling side. If it wasnt for the help of BASC Wigtown Bay LNR would never have got its bylaws through, so it either would have been a free for all or the RSPB would have shut the wildfowling down for good, the same is happening on finidhorn bay in Grampian an the moment, alot of this stuff goes on behind the scenes... All you have to say is, without an organisation like BASC where would shooting in the UK be now???

[Alycidon]

Mike,

 

We the general shooting community need this guy Alled 12 batting for us bigtime on this issue, you probably need his expertise in the area. Talk to him and get him onside working for you as a consultant or whatever before its to late,

 

Thanks

 

A

 

Alled12,

 

Sorry mate but I think you could be of a major benefit to us in this fight.

 

A

[alled12]

Alycidon

Flattery will get you everywhere mate. The guy I spoke to at BASC was going to get there technical department to give me a call, with regard to soil issues. The company I am shortly to be working for in Abu Dhabi are experts in cleaning up firing ranges amongst other things. We have cleaned up some of the largest US army firing ranges when they moved from Lead cores to Tungsten so my knowledge base is expanding all the time, not to mention I have access to some of the worlds leading experts in this matter. I dont profess to being an expert, I am merely examining this with the rational of someone who has dealt with contaminated land and disposal of soils frequently in my career. Not to mention hazardous waste, but thats another story altogether. Thats is not to say that I am going after this to bring in money. If need be and I am avialable I will lend my time FOC to any range or person that needs it. I am passoinate about this sport of ours and I dont want to see it get drag into a bitch fight over a problem that simply does not exist.

 

My main concern here is making sure that our organisations force the people who brought this to Defra's attention in the first place to present proper evidence that these issues are occuring in this country. As I alluded to earlier amongst raptors this is going to be incredibly difficult. If they die it is likely that their carcass will be consumed before any studies can determine what killed them. In the case of DDT it was easier as raptors were dropping like flies and nature couldnt hide what was going on. This problem aside the one that does concern me is a new directive coming out of Europe with regards to water quality. I am still trying to locate it. This has implications for the contamination of ground water I think but I need some time to read it and see what if any implications there are.

 

Like I keep saying sticking together on this subject and all other shooting related issues whether you believe in them or not is only way to win these things. So regardless of whether you use a shotgun, rifle, black powder or air we need to back each other up on this. I hope thats what the pistol ban would have served to educate us on. I dont like the NRA's in the USA much but they have got one thing right, give an inch to these people and they will take a yard as a minimum. We also want to keep it of the political radar, there are lots of politicians who would use this to get there way and shooting would be a thing of the past. BASC have done good things but they have also cocked up alot of things, this time I am intent on trying to get them to do the write thing.

 

Baldie the biggest problem with regard to barnes bullets is the american market. If the yanks stopped buying them then it might work but they wont. Our market is just to small to be significant to Barnes. We need to focus on the science of this and we may just get the answer we want. Laurie most scavengers and meat eating creatures have acidic stomachs, we do. It helps kill bacteria and break down protien in a number of ways. Scavengers have particularly strong acid as the bacteria they ingest when eating rotten meat is usually pretty nasty. Africa may hold some evidence as most farms etc have a vulture pits where dead carcasses are laid, some will probably have been shot so worth exploring BASC.

 

Laurie with the Environmentalists and conservationist its always the same. They make a mountain out of mole hill. I have had that many heated discussions with these people I have lost count. As a general rule of thumb if you have contamination of an area and it is not spreading to the wider environment you leave it alone, to try to dig it out or remove it can very often be the way it escapes. The only time you remove it is if you have to, for development or because it is spreading, have a look at the love canal in the USA google it, now thats a proper eoclogical and toxilogical disaster. It should also show you how they dealt with it. In the mean time to keep them at bay we will have new CLEA guidelines shortly and while we wait we still have the old ones.

[Chris-NZ]

Shrek-

 

with regard to steel shot, we have anything you want available here, eg I use 3" No.3 Federal Premiums in mine. I well recall last season trying to finish off a "woundie" on the pond at maybe 35 yards. Raked three shots through it with the pattern centred each time and the thing was still not fully finished off. In contrast I had a session late last year at a small private pond and was amazed at how "non-steel" just levelled them.

 

Sure, these are possibly one-off events but it strikes me there are too many serious waterfowlers here with years of experience who have that opinion. A lot of these guys live for duckshooting and would have huge tallies behind them.

 

Duckshooting to me is largely social so the enjoyment's still there

 

Chris-NZ

[baldie]

Alled, thanks for your informed posts, they make very interesting reading.

Thank you also for fighting our corner on this one.

 

Regarding BASC however. I know for a fact the shooting and fielsports community wont back them up. People have long memories and can remember the hunting ban, and the #### all basc did to help, apart from keep wildfowlers, and game shooters dogs out of it as best they could. It was the same with the VCR bill, all they were interested in was the continued sale of shotgun primers "off" ticket presentation, for their game shooting cronies.

BASC have two interests only. Game shooters and wildfowlers, the rest of the membership are used purely to prop up the coffers, for the blue eyed boys.

 

I hate to be defeatist, but its the simple honest truth, and for BASC to allude to anything more is a lie.

 

They are going to have to come out fighting this time....because its primarily the "blue eyed boys" sport of game shooting they are going to have to defend. I,ll bet a pound to a pinch of that which promotes growth and vigour that rifle shooters, and their ammo get dry bummed as a sop.

 

I was a long member of BASC, for the record....until i could stomach the that which promotes growth and vigour no more.

[alled12]

Baldie I feel the same way. In this case thankfully rifles are not the issue so much with the raptors. As a rifle shooter my biggest concern is the new EU regulations on water quality. Our second biggest problem was the forestry commision adopting barnes ammunition for use on the land to control deer. Who ever let that happen really cocked up. What I want them to understand is that the raptor issue is different to lead on land issue. We could use a dedicated metalic ammunition users body, rather than have to attach ourselves to other groups who really dont have our interests at heart. I will badger them a bit over this issue, whether it will be any good or not is open to debate.

[oneshot]

We have all been eating lead shot quarry for years and we are most still hear it is the way in which basc reacted that has annoyed people they are supposed to defend people who enjoy fieldsports not add to anyones ammo as to why it should be stopped in any way shape or form i wont be joining them again when my membership expires.

[lancslad]

We have all been eating lead shot quarry for years and we are most still hear it is the way in which basc reacted that has annoyed people they are supposed to defend people who enjoy fieldsports not add to anyones ammo as to why it should be stopped in any way shape or form i wont be joining them again when my membership expires.

 

In full agreement with you there..............................No more 65 quid from me..........

[David BASC]

BASC is opposed to any further restrictions on lead - it is as simple as that.

 

You may or may not remember that it was BASC that prevented the ban on lead shot in the UK coming into force for almost 20 years- no one else did!

 

You may or may not know that there was a very real threat that lead was going to be banned for all shooting in the UK and BASC stopped that.

 

So who else would you lot rather have as Chairman of the Lead Ammunition group – the CEO of the RSPB? Come on surely you can see the logic of shooting being so well represented on the main group?

 

Have a look at the LAG web site – you may well be surprised to see that all the main shooting organisations are as one on this… www.leadammunitiongroup.co.uk

 

But as I have said, you are free to support which ever shooting organisation you think best represents your interests.

 

Best wishes

 

David