FAC Conditions - legally binding abroad?

[Tiff]

I know firearms can be conditioned for hunting abroad, but what UK legal powers are you under once abroad?

 

If you shot a 'target only' rifle abroad on plains game or a field only rifle on a foreign range, what laws are you breaking?

 

Any information/links would be great thanks.

 

Cheers Tiff

[Ratwhiskers]

Tiff.

 

Quote from my local plod

 

"The firearms and "non-expanding" ammunition shall be carried when proceding to or returning from a port of embarkation.............

 

lt's illegal for us as shooters to take expanding ammo out of the country. Bloody silly if you're off to Africa with a round that's a bit exotic, what the hell do you do for soft points if they don't have any where you're going? That's why l'm leaving my 7-08rem at home and will be taking the .308win along instead.

 

l should believe that if you stuffed something up over seas, and they got to hear of it back home they'd be non too chuffed........ What/how bad, that would entail l'm non too sure, but it's best to play on the safe side me thinks.

 

No millitary round allowed in France for civies, even their own soldiers are issued with a swiss army knife that only has a bottle opener and a white flag fitted......

[TonyH]

I know firearms can be conditioned for hunting abroad, but what UK legal powers are you under once abroad?....

None AFAIC. Whatever legal or extra-legal twiddly bits your local plod impose at home, their writ does not extend outside the UK and you only have to concern yourself with local law, less onerous in practically every other part of the planet. I mean, I've shown my FAC to people in Canada and the USA, explained how it works, and they just shake their heads in disbelief, muttering "Man...." One of the nicest things about shooting abroad, in my admittedly limited experience, is that everyone and everything is so much more relaxed about firearms.

I don't understand the reference to not taking the dreaded WMD-style "expanding ammo" abroad: AFAIK this is not illegal at all. I've carried hundreds of rounds of V-Max handloads abroad, and brought unused stuff (plus fresh stocks of bullets etc) back too, no problem at all.

TonyH

[njc110381]

When I went abroad I just stuck to local law. It's got nothing to do with the UK police. I think my FAC stated for use abroad or in the uk only on ranges with non expanding ammunition. In Canada my mate bought my ammo for me. Their certification makes sense, he could buy anything up to .50 cal on his credit card sized license and as many rounds as he could carry!

 

I thought that the non expanding bit only counted for firearms conditioned for targets in the uk or for calibres not allowed here (like my .375)? Surely if you can hold expanding for hunting in the uk you can also take it abroad?

[gazzar15]

UK law is exactly that UK law.

Plod cannot tell you what to do with your guns and ammo in another country it is out of their jurisdiction.Please, please make yourself aware of local laws at your destination however.

In Texas where I am lucky enough to get at least one trip a year to, local law requires me to give the range owner a load of money in exchange for a load of ammo which I then use in all kinds of section 5 firearms over a period of a few days until it runs out ,with me giggling and grinning all the time. This cycle repeats itself until I come home

Gary

[Vermincinerator]

Tiff,

What are you studying at university? its not common sense

 

Ian.

[Tiff]

Tiff,

What are you studying at university? its not common sense

 

Ian.

 

 

Lol yeah, just making sure though that I cover myself I've tended to find with regards to firearms law, common sense doesn't often exist.....

 

 

Thanks for all the replies so far, it seems to confirm my thoughts. Although I'm still trying to find any legal sections, to make sure I don't cause an unnecessary problem when coming back into the country etc.

 

I'm trying to work out why I should bother putting in for a variation on firearms I already own, for 'use abroad' ;when it has no legal grounding? Does it help when removing them from the country? Are you even allowed to take firearms with you when not conditioned for 'use abroad'?

 

Then on top of that, if I already hold a firearm for target or deer shooting here, why would it matter to the police what species I wish to shoot abroad?

 

Any more answers greatly appreciated,

 

Tiff

[brown dog]

I've never come across a 'for use abroad' condition; for legal sporting use you're good to go as is.

 

Taking that as read, what's more important is making sure that you're legal in your destination country.

 

 

For example don't go anywhere in Europe without a European Firearms Pass. (It's free from your FAC issuer) And even with that check what you can and can't have in any particular country (eg no military calibres in France, eg no europeans bringing semi-auto rifles to UK).

[Bob Valdez]

When i take my firearms to the US thats all i take, no ammo. I apply to the ATF about 6 weeks before i go by downloading an application form and faxing it along with a letter from the competition in which i am shooting, or a hunting licence from the area i am going to, buy and shoot the ammo there. They really are a bunch of idiots at customs stateside sometimes.

[Vermincinerator]

Lol yeah, just making sure though that I cover myself I've tended to find with regards to firearms law, common sense doesn't often exist.....

 

Too right especially here but probably not abroad

 

Ian.

[TonyH]

...Although I'm still trying to find any legal sections, to make sure I don't cause an unnecessary problem when coming back into the country etc.

I'm trying to work out why I should bother putting in for a variation on firearms I already own, for 'use abroad' ;when it has no legal grounding? Does it help when removing them from the country? Are you even allowed to take firearms with you when not conditioned for 'use abroad'?...

I don't know who you've been talking to but where have you got these ideas from? If you take your rifle & ammo out of the country in the correct way - European Firearms Pass, pointless bit of paper but you now need one - and you've checked long in advance with both your airline and the destination country what requirements you need to follow, then there's no reason why you should encounter any problems when you come back.

I suppose it might be thought a "good reason" sort of to say you want to acquire so-and-so rifle for hunting abroad but I've never heard of such a thing; just use one or more of the standard UK "good reasons" and that's all you need: you do not need to have a FAC condition for "foreign hunting" to take your rifle out of the country, just the EFP - the conditions applying to your rifle's use abroad will be those imposed by the destination country, not the UK...

This is the first time I've ever heard the idea of a condition saying "for use abroad" even mentioned: it had never occurred to me. If it's OK with the airline and the country where you're going hunting, and you have your EFP (in which are recorded the details of which firearm you're taking out) then that's it. Has somebody been putting weird ideas into your head? Honestly, it's not that difficult! Just check months in advance with the airline, your destination etc, and you should be perfectly OK for any normal sporting rifle and 5kg of ammo. You don't need anything on your FAC.

TonyH

[Tiff]

I don't know who you've been talking to but where have you got these ideas from?

 

 

Just the ever helpful (and often confused people), who are just along the road from Sportsmans

Although one of the only chaps I know personally who shoots abroad, has a .375H&H licensed only for hunting abroad and zeroing on ranges with FMJ's in the UK, since the police here wont allow it as they consider it 'too large'.

 

 

Thanks guys for all the replies. Sounds like I'll simply apply for my European Firearms Pass and politely refuse the offer of a variation .

[Tiff]

Looking through the HO Guidance to the Police 2002, it looks like the person I spoke a while ago with may have been confused by the 'Overseas Use' sections 13.33 - 13.35. Where an aplicant who has no interest in target shooting here, can apply for a rifle soley for hunting use abroad and zeroing with FMJ's here.

[stag1933]

I had two trips to RSA , the first time I went I used my 8X68S and the second time my .300 Win.Mag.

Both times I took my own ammo with no problems regarding that either in or out.

The second trip was buggered up by Police at Manchester Airport who wanted us to put our rifle bolts in our hand luggage , this we resisted but unknown to us a couple in our party had followed this instruction and at Charles De Gaulle Airport the Frogs found the bolts and detained all our party.

We were given a hard time by the rotten Frogs and nearly missed our `plane .

When we got to Jo`berg we found that aforesaid rotten Frogs had not put our rifles on the flight .

There is only one flight per day there so we were put into some nice over-night digs to wait for our rifles to arrive next day .

Next day

we found that our internal flight to destination had been for the previous day only and we had to pay again .

Because of this we lost one days hunting , I would never use Air France again !

 

HWH.

[Millwall Paul]

The first time I went to the RSA hunting I checked with my FEO and he said that they had no interest if I took my rifle abroad or not. Unless it was into europe in which case I would need a EFP. i traveled with SAA who were very helpful. We informed them in advance that we would be carrying sporting rifles and were met at heathrow by the police who processed the rifles. All of our party took expanding amunition and never had a proble on the way there or way back. The second time I wentwe flew with BA. I'd never fly with them again. No problem on the way out there, but on the way back they wouldn't let us check our guns in without putting the ammunition in with the rifles. At Joberg they went mentle! And told us that it's illegal to transport a rifle with the bolt and aummunition all in the same case, so they made us all put our ammunition into another bag which was checked in under 1 persons name. We just made our flight back to the UK. This was only a problem when we landed as 1 person didn't have the authority on his license for all the different calibres of ammunition. It was soon sorted out and the ammunition was dished back out to the relivant people and our serial numbers checked and we were on our way home. Then it was off to hospital for me for a week long stay as I was suffering from tick bite fever. Shitty way to end a fantastic holiday.

[TonyH]

Just the ever helpful (and often confused people), who are just along the road from Sportsmans ...

Ah, this starts to explain things; you mean that old-established rather rundown and gloomy place in Heavitree? Maybe it's been miraculously transformed into a brilliantly lit, smart, snappily run place (haven't been there for years) but it used to be a dump and I found the people running it not competent enough for my liking.

But the subsequent posts by Stag1933 and Millwall Paul illustrate perfectly the occasional difficulty one can encounter: the regulations might be strict and detailed, but IME far too many airline employees and security types don't know the regulations - and they certainly don't know anything about guns. So you get these conflicting or contradictory rulings. Paul mentions the plods at Manchester insisting on bolts being separated: good basic security, but the first time I took my rifle to Canada it caused me problems - not severe - with a dim type at Luton who found my bolt worrying, and some turban-wearing security types at Toronto also - who wouldn't even be persuaded by some helpful Mounties they called in. These two Mounties immediately took my side because they know about guns and realised I was using common sense, and knew what I was doing!

Last summer I just left my bolt in the rifle and had no problems at all - but that was just luck. You can get screwed around arbitrarily just because the security types don't know the rules and don't know their jobs. You'd think knowing a bit about guns would be a prerequisite for airline security but, well, it seems not.

BTW my plods (Devon & Cornwall) required me to get the European Firearms Pass to take my rifle out of the country at all, not just within Europe.

I think this thread demonstrates that the best place to get advice about taking firearms abroad is first, a forum such as this, where you get real-world experience; second, an organisation such as BASC or the NRA; third, your FEO; much further down the line, RFDs, since few of them will have travelled abroad with guns but they feel their position entitles them to hand out authoritative-sounding advice even if it's rubbish...

TonyH

[Orka Akinse]

chaps I know personally who shoots abroad, has a .375H&H licensed only for hunting abroad and zeroing on ranges with FMJ's in the UK, since the police here wont allow it as they consider it 'too large'.

 

 

Didn't Ken Duff? Aka Jan Andrews other half shoot thousands of deer with a .375 H&H in fact, I think you see him using it on one of the early videos!!

 

Memory is a littel grey round the edges so if I'm wrong would someone correct me please.

 

OA

[brown dog]

OA, not sure about the person you've named; but you can definitely get 375 for large deer in UK -you have to establish 'good reason' with something like plains game, but once good reason has been established it can be authorised for UK deer. (Almost that exact example is given in the plod guidance book.)

[Tiff]

OA, not sure about the person you've named; but you can definitely get 375 for large deer in UK -you have to establish 'good reason' with something like plains game, but once good reason has been established it can be authorised for UK deer. (Almost that exact example is given in the plod guidance book.)

 

 

Yep but Devon and Cornwall Constabulary have an almost blanket ban on anything over .30 for UK field use

Part the reason for this original question, is that I'm planning to go moose & bear hunting with my .338 later this year on a friends ranch in B.C. However because the police won't allow it for field use here, it is down as target only.

[njc110381]

Yep but Devon and Cornwall Constabulary have an almost blanket ban on anything over .30 for UK field use

Part the reason for this original question, is that I'm planning to go moose & bear hunting with my .338 later this year on a friends ranch in B.C. However because the police won't allow it for field use here, it is down as target only.

 

 

That's what stuffed me for my .375H&H in the UK. The police wanted a piece of cleared ground with big Deer on for the calibre, then I'd have got it under the same conditions as everything else. Well my contact was in Devon and guess what, the ground wasn't suitable. Come on, it's on the edge of Exmoor and is in a pretty good little valley, you wouldn't find anything better this side of Scotland! So I had mine for use abroad and zeroing in the uk (non expanding only). If you're not a member of a club and want a rifle for use abroad which isn't deemed suitable for anything in the UK then you have to have the use abroad condition.

[TonyH]

...However because the police won't allow [.338] for field use here, it is down as target only.

That's fine, though, for using it abroad, since these UK conditions and "good reasons" are irrelevant when abroad. Check out (Ministry of Natural Resources) which type of Visitor Permit you'll need in BC, and whether they have an Outdoors Card like they have in Ontario (in which case you'll need one too), plus I think big game such as bear are on a tag system. You'll have to obtain these after arrival but if BC is anything like Ontario, it's perfectly straightforward: in ONT the best way is to go the nearest branch of Service Ontario, fill in some forms, hand over the dollars, bingo. Be sure to check out in advance the RCMP website and download Firearms Form 909, complete it in advance to hand to the Border Services Agency people on arrival - it saves time, they'll charge you $25, but provided you're going to be in Canada for no more than 60 days this will act as your licence, to possess the rifle and buy ammo if wanted. Just don't try asking anyone if it's OK to hunt game with your rifle 'cos in England it's only certificated for target, or they'll look at you a bit funny! Arrive with the right paperwork, get the additional paperwork immediately thereafter, and you should find everyone really friendly and the border people/cops etc will wish you "Good Hunting!" Hmmm, moose & bear in BC, sounds good! I've just been varmint hunting a couple of times in CA but I'd like to try some bigger stuff too.

TonyH