shrek Posted October 10, 2009 Report Share Posted October 10, 2009 As we've probably all read theres another heated debate about the use of match bullets for hunting applications, So i thought id post this picture, 105 amax, Mushroomed bullet weighed in at 56.4gr. controlled expantion??? i think so This is the round that i pulled from just under the skin from the far side of the red stag i posted about the other day, In my haste and slight moment of buck fever i took the shot not noting the angle of the beast, thereofore this round passed in just behind the shoulder (slightly high) just missing the top of the heart, peircing the bottom of the lung passed through the diapham and scratching the stomach, And before anyone says it, i put my hands up it was a bad shot, far worse than i first thought anyway, thankfully the second shot through the spine put him down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njc110381 Posted October 10, 2009 Report Share Posted October 10, 2009 That looks to have performed pretty much the same as the cheaper soft point bullets would have. It lost quite a bit of weight on the way through but it held together well enough. I'm on the pro A-Max team. I'm not sure where the law stands exactly but if they do the job humanely then that's the important bit. Just because it's sold as a target round that doesn't mean it will perform like an FMJ and not transfer any energy to the target. I'm sure I read somewhere that the Hornady website once stated it was suitable for thin skinned game.... That's what a Deer is right? Cheers for the picture and info. Very interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shrek Posted October 10, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 10, 2009 Not sure what the website says, however thats all the usual species from crows the red deer that ive shot with this bullet without a problem so far, after the trouble ive been having with v-max's latly i think im gona stick with a-max's had another fox with a 22 v-max a couple of weeks ago with a through and through, went through the shoulder and still didnt open up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tiff Posted October 10, 2009 Report Share Posted October 10, 2009 155 A-MAX for me in my .308's. Between my stalking partner and myself we've had over 400 deer with this bullet - WITHOUT ONE RUNNING MORE THAN 17 YARDS! We've shot red & roe at 6 yards (yes you did read that right.....) out to 300+. Every time it seems to drop them on/almost on the spot. Yet to have a bullet fail to work/wound one with the A-MAX. Although annoyingly my 30-338 LM does not like them in the 208 grain version. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejg223 Posted October 10, 2009 Report Share Posted October 10, 2009 165gr SST from a 308 Hit bone. Hunting bullet 155gr A-max also hit bone, maybe a bit less. Hunting/target bullet Both emptied out, no difference. Both animals went down very quick. edi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronin Posted October 10, 2009 Report Share Posted October 10, 2009 A few years ago, when I was bored or had too much time on my hands, I did a series of tests using "match bullets" and shot them at a variety of distances into media that I made to try and replicate muscle tissue and bone - just to see what happened. I did have the offer of a couple of sheep at the time but I didnt fancy retrieving the bullets as they had both been down a few days..... I recall that some performed very well, others didnt. I will try and retrieve the data. There used to be a picture on the web of a series of bullets (probably 200) that showed pictures of the same bullet fired at differing velocities into ballistic gel. Not sure if its still on line, I saved it on an old hard drive that I no longer use, will try and find that too. Lets just say this: "All animals, react badly to bullets" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baldie Posted October 10, 2009 Report Share Posted October 10, 2009 We have had this discussion before, and its plain to see the A-max will do the job nicely. I,m not a deer shooter, so dont take too much notice of the regs and laws that govern it. As i understand it however, the deer act states, a bullet which is designed to expand must be used. A -max are designated target bullets, and are not designed to expand, even though they do, and that is the only thing the law would be interested in, legally. This surely puts anyone using them in a very sticky position legally, and the last thing i would be doing, is advertising the fact, personally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronin Posted October 10, 2009 Report Share Posted October 10, 2009 Understand where youre coming from Dave I use Barnes for most of my deer calibres, except the 25-06. However, Deer Act 1991 (England) (Prohibited ammunition) Any bullet for use in a rifle other than a soft-nosed or hollow-nosed bullet Therefore the bullet, aside from being the minumum calibre and meeting the muzz leenergy requirements must be either SOFT NOSED or HOLLOW NOSED. Deer Act 1996 (Scotland) "a bullet designed to deform in a predictable manner of not less than 100gn...." Silly to be legal in the UK and use the same bullet on the same species across the border one commits a crime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tiff Posted October 10, 2009 Report Share Posted October 10, 2009 We have had this discussion before, and its plain to see the A-max will do the job nicely.I,m not a deer shooter, so dont take too much notice of the regs and laws that govern it. As i understand it however, the deer act states, a bullet which is designed to expand must be used. A -max are designated target bullets, and are not designed to expand, even though they do, and that is the only thing the law would be interested in, legally. This surely puts anyone using them in a very sticky position legally, and the last thing i would be doing, is advertising the fact, personally. As Ronin said above, in England and Wales, A-MAX, SMK etc are perfectly legal. It's just the Scots that seem to be different.....but whats new there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejg223 Posted October 10, 2009 Report Share Posted October 10, 2009 Now... what is more important? designed to deform in a predictable manner (and maybe doesn't, because it does not say that it must be proven) or deforms in a predictable manner ! Saying that I would not willi nilly use any target bullet on fox or deer. edi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shrek Posted October 10, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 10, 2009 However, Deer Act 1991 (England) (Prohibited ammunition) Any bullet for use in a rifle other than a soft-nosed or hollow-nosed bullet Therefore the bullet, aside from being the minumum calibre and meeting the muzz leenergy requirements must be either SOFT NOSED or HOLLOW NOSED. Where does a ballistic tip fit in there then? (in the eyes of the law) Deer Act 1996 (Scotland) "a bullet designed to deform in a predictable manner of not less than 100gn...." Look at the picture in the original post, point made! Not trying to be arsey about it? just interested! Didint really want to get into the law side of things, i just thought the photo would be interesting! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tiff Posted October 10, 2009 Report Share Posted October 10, 2009 Where does a ballistic tip fit in there then? (in the eyes of the law) Hi Shrek, I believe the 'ballistic tip' is considered to be a cover for the hollow point, to help increase its B.C. . As such it is a hollow point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejg223 Posted October 10, 2009 Report Share Posted October 10, 2009 Or Shrek, plastic being softer than metall, so it is a soft point. edi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotch_egg Posted October 10, 2009 Report Share Posted October 10, 2009 Doesn't really matter with a head shot though does it!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eldon Posted October 10, 2009 Report Share Posted October 10, 2009 Well yes scotch egg unless your going to carry some soft points in your pocket in case somebody asks you, what are you using? Legally, head shot or not the bullet would have to be correct. Obviously regarding the deer's fate we both know the answer ! Not being arsey just my take on things and i have to agree with dave and say what happens behind closed doors is another thing to publicising such on forums. Potentially unwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tiff Posted October 10, 2009 Report Share Posted October 10, 2009 Doesn't really matter with a head shot though does it!!! I'd actually disagree on this one...to an extent. Obviously with a perfectly placed head/upper spinal column shot bullet construction doesn't matter. However if the shot slightly misses the perfect spot, a greater expanding bullet will help to destroy the surrounding areas (i.e. the bit you wanted to hit) better than one that passes straight through. I've seen this happen on a roe buck that a friend shot with a 140grain partition to the base of the head/top spine. The bullet missed the centre of the spine by 4mm and failed to destroy it, passing straight through- leaving the animal paralyzed by still alive. I then provided a backup shot with a 210 VLD which almost parted the head clean off! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njc110381 Posted October 10, 2009 Report Share Posted October 10, 2009 I'm interested to read the finer points of the UK firearms laws. I didn't realise it stated soft or hollow point. That puts the A-Max in an even better position as long as it's used outside of Scotland. So far all my shooting is in the south of England so I should be fine. With all this debate going on I'm not sure why I'm chipping in so much. I've never shot a Deer with an A-Max, only Fox and Vermin. I base my comments on the performance I've had on Foxes. You can tell by the wounds roughly what the bullet is doing and they neither drive through without expanding or blow up, so they can't be bad! I'll continue to use Barnes TSX for my Deer until I run out. At that point I may try some A-Max for comparison. Not being a pro stalker 100 bullets lasts me a long time (I buy two boxes of TSX at a time). I've still got a box to work on ATM so ther's no point changing. Only cost would make me change, the A-Max are much cheaper but I can't fault the TSX on performance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eldon Posted October 10, 2009 Report Share Posted October 10, 2009 Maybe this might add something for the benefit of this topic, Sorry for the poor quality pictures but its the content I want to discuss. So far we have discussed predictable expansion but what is happening to the penetration? The "rabbit" is 10mm thick mild steel. The distance is 100 yds. Calibre 308. We are only concerned with two shots/ marks, the hole and the fresh dent. The rusty hole is a 155 amax shot a few months previously. Velocity 2750 fps. The fresh mark is a prvi partisan 150 gr soft point factory same batch as what is placed on the top. Discuss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eldon Posted October 10, 2009 Report Share Posted October 10, 2009 Double post as the link dropped out as it was loading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronin Posted October 10, 2009 Report Share Posted October 10, 2009 Sorry, had a drink and about to retire to bed. Result is dead wabbit both cases. Flippant I know, but the bast I can muster with a few bottles of Hobgoblin inside me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejg223 Posted October 10, 2009 Report Share Posted October 10, 2009 Eldon, Normally one would have worries of over expansion and varmint type bullet behaviour from an A-max because of the thin Jacket. But the plastic tip is smaller in diameter than a Nos BT leading to slower initial expansion??? I found that on long or short shots with the 155 a-max from a 308 hardly exit on a sika sized deer. Shot a spike last week at well over 200m quatering away and three ribs were broken on entry, bullet left overs lodged in opposite leg under the skin. Dropped on the spot. I prefer when a bullet expands also at a longer shot. With 10mm steel hit by mainly lead, we have more punch than pierce. Maybe the Soft point was way down on energy? edi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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