Using a large calibre rifle for deer

[njc110381]

I've done a lot of reading and have decided I want to swap my .375H&H for a .444 Marlin. I would like to hunt Deer with the rifle but without messing up too much meat. I've had an idea that could work, but need someone with a little more understanding of ballistics to back up my idea.

 

Whan I shoot Deer with my 6.5 (.264) I use expanding ammunition. When the bullet mushrooms inside the Deer it creates a wider wound channel (obviously). Roughly how big would you expect that bullet to grow to? Lets say it doubles to .528 just for comparison.

 

If I shoot the same bullet in the .444 and use the same expansion guestimate that will grow to .888, or in other words huge! This in my head will result in quite a bit of mess that is not needed.

 

What if I was to load a very heavy duty bullet in the .444? Something designed for Moose and Bear maybe? It would still be a controlled expansion bullet but wouldn't open up nearly as fast. To my reconing it would pass clean through our smaller deer species with hardly any expansion at all. If it stayed at .444 that would be the same as a .22CF in Scotland hitting a Roe with a suitable bullet and doubling its size when mushroomed?

 

Do you think my theory could be a good way to get clean kills with acceptable meat damage? Or am I missing something major and leaving myself open to wounding (which I really don't want to experiment with to find out)?

[Guest Tiff]

A lot of it comes down to bullet design and impact velocity. Apart from the physical bullet size, the meat damage will be caused by the hydrostatic shock/pressure and the wound channel this forms. Depending on the impact velocity of the bullet, it will expand in a different way. And therefore impart a different wound channel/meat damage.

 

Anyway before I go off on a tangent...If you use a more heavily constructed bullet it will probably not expand that well in the required distance (i.e. one side of a roe to the other). However as a result of less expansion it will have imparted less of its energy into the deer. Obviously still fatal in the right place, but more chance of a runner on adrenaline.

 

Its best to think less of the diameter of the actual expanded bullet (like they show in glossy adds) and more on how this relates to the internal pressure wave.

 

Sorry if this makes no sense at all....best bet is to have a play with different bullets in some ballistic gel, then all the ballistic complexities make sense

[njc110381]

I understand roughly what you're saying, but I'm not sure I want the bullet to expand fully. The bullet would be travelling at around 2000fps, quite slow really. It would weigh 300 grains though so it's not likely to stop in our small Deer even if it was fully expanded. I think in this situation I don't really need to give all the bullets energy to the target and it would be better if some of it was lost.

 

I think the best bet is to try a regular expanding bullet first to see how much damage it does. I'd rather lose a few ribs and maybe a leg than cause a runner, and if they turn out not to be too bad I can forget the idea. At that speed I don't think it will produce too much of a shock wave, so maybe a large wound channel could be important?

[ejg223]

I would just start off with some remington SP or similar standard ammo.

Shoot a few deer and see in which direction you want to go.

Andrew on here might have a few tips with cast bullets.

edi

[shrek]

Just my opinion on the matter i may be talking bull, but...

 

If your smacking small deer, roe mutjack etc with 300 grains, surly the kinetic energy passed on from that sort of weight and surface area would be fatal let alone how much the actual bullet expands, as for meat damage i would say that even my 6BR loaded with a soft point will destroy most of the opposite shoulder if the bullet connects with a rib as it enters and mushrooms/ breaks up??

 

However you surly must own these calibers for wild dangerous game in contenets far wilder that our own, therefore i can only say if it does work well on deer, which i think it will, get as much practice as possible, for the time when you may need to take a quick shot at somthing dangerous, the practice an time spend shooting deer will pay didvidends!!!

 

My boss applied for a 416 Rigby one for one from his 375, firearms officer asks for this justification?

 

My boss replies "watch that video, it took 5 shots to kill the buffalo, next time i want it dead in two!"

 

Firearms officer says " Fair enough"

 

Hahaha

[Guest Tiff]

I'll try and explain a bit more, its a bit hard to explain all the elements that come together as I see it ....

 

By the nature of a bullet expanding it is imparting its energy into its surroundings, the deer. If the bullet passes straight through with little expansion, it will have transferred little of its energy into the deer. Therefore the shockwave/vacuum produced will be relatively small and thus wound channel. Hence why FMJ ball bullets are not used.

 

However bullet design also comes into this. A flat nose bullet holding the same energy as a pointed bullet, will always appear to transfer more of its energy initialy in the medium it hits. It is simply less efficient at traversing the medium (deer) and transfers its energy rapidly. However this doesn't allow for either expanding....

 

The combination of the expansion and bullet shape (amongst other things like construction) results in the most efficient energy transfer and thus kill. How smoothly this energy is transferred into its medium (the formation of the pressure based wound channel) is what causes badly bruised meat with some bullets and clean channels with others.

 

It's a case of finding a bullet that is lightly built enough to show expansion (energy transfer) within a deer, without destroying it.

 

Like I say these are my personal findings with the .338 and large .300 magnums. I did use 'bear' bullets and found that while there was little damage (read virtually none) all I did was put a hole through the animals heart, just like an arrow. This resulted in them running and only stopping through loss of blood/cavity pressure. While technically a clean kill, not what I was looking for.

[brown dog]

njc,

 

I suspect you're way off beam here.

 

All other things being equal, a big slow bullet will cause less meat damage than a small very fast one.

 

Visualise a prairie dog / rabbit with a 243 vs same with your 444. One will cause the animal to explode; one will not.

 

I wouldn't give it another thought.

 

[JC275]

My only advice would be to find an expanding bullet/load/velocity combination that give you maximum accuracy then worry about terminal bullet performance and meat damage when you have shot 50 or so beasts with it so that you can form your own opinion. At the end of the day, and i'm talking about wild deer here, who cares about meat damage? I would sacrifice both shoulders for a clean humane kill every time. JC

[njc110381]

I would sacrifice both shoulders for a clean humane kill every time. JC

 

 

That's exactly how I feel too. If I can down them cleanly and keep the meat though that would be better!

[Vermincinerator]

Just to put a spanner in the works have a look at THIS

 

Ian

[TOP_PREDATOR]

Don't get rid of your 375,it would be biggest mistake of your life.

 

you could load 375 with very hard bullets 300GR like Failsafes or light bullets like 225GR Hornady,key not to push them too fast.

[swampy]

the .444 marlin is not the hi velocity expanding type round we are used to dealing with. The bullet is, if you like, pre expanded. so the big slow moving bullet does not expand in the same way as a smaller high velocity rifle bullet. it will not show significant expansion in the deer.

 

The big bullet equals more damage theory is not all together true.

 

The most damaging round i have shot roe with is federal 80 gr factory amunition from a .243 win. The velocity is 3400 fps. the bullet is a sierra prohunter. they are quite a lightly constructed non bonded bullet. This also left me with most runners. it seems strange that with more damage i got more runners. the least damaging round i have shot roe with has been .30-06 with speer hot cors 150 gr. they have been home loads at about 2800 fps. the bullet is of tough construction and is bonded. I use the same point of aim at the top of the heart. I have found with both rounds even if the top of the heart is smashed up i got more runners with 80 gr. the 30-06 victims have all fallen where hit.

 

so the 444 marlin will give 2300 fps (that really is getting along there for a straight walled round) but at 100 yards the velocity will be 1900 fps (thanks hornadies website). this will significantly alter the expansion to not much.

 

This round will kill deer pretty well without causing much damage, i think. but due to it's velocity at the muzzle it can only be used where legal.

 

swampy

[Greenbear]

Don't get rid of your 375,it would be biggest mistake of your life.

 

you could load 375 with very hard bullets 300GR like Failsafes or light bullets like 225GR Hornady,key not to push them too fast.

 

 

a good point

 

Have you any experience with loading the .375?

 

I am keen to develop a load for myself, 300g for target and i'm thinking 235g or 260g for hunting

 

cheers

 

 

GB

[njc110381]

Don't get rid of your 375,it would be biggest mistake of your life.

 

 

I know, but I can't use it here due to our excessive restrictions. I probably could if I keep trying to find what the firearms dept want but it's just too hard. The gun is too big for UK Deer anyway, and it's very heavy and long to swing on running Boar. If I was a little bigger it would be fine, but I'm quite small and the gun is a cannon to me! A .444 underlever is more managable and will do the job on Bear at close range which is what I bought the .375 for. I don't ever plan to hunt them, just shoot them if they look like they want to hurt me. I will also never shoot big game.

 

I have a slot for .300 win mag for long range use and a 6.5x55 for everything else. There isn't much the 6.5 can't do in the UK.

 

I wouldn't even dream of selling the .375 if I had more space to keep rifles and could actually use it here. I'm restricted to 20 rounds of FMJ ammo for zeroing on an approved range-and the .375 isn't a comfortable paper puncher!

[john robbo]

Heres my veiw for all its worth.You are better using a medium calibre with a controlled expansion bullet such as a partition they kill like rattle and damage very little edible meat especially if your shot is well placed.And on the other hand not that im implying you will shoot unsafley but a large blunt lump of lead after passing through a deer may not do as you think and may well skip like a stone on water. but what do i know i only take out clients for a living and see many dozens of deer getting shot on a monthly basis. The other thing is your range estimation will have to be spot on it will rainbow to your target. Not good for follow up shots, believe me you,ll need them.Theres alot off good advice given by everyone on here Make up your own mind

[njc110381]

I shoot a 6.5x55 for every day Deer stalking, it's a much more suitable calibre. This will only ever be a fast gun for close range use where a follow up shot would be tough with any rifle due to heavy cover. I'm not planning to use it a lot or as my main rifle, but would like to use it sometimes in a real hunting situation to keep my confidence in the gun for when it really is needed.

[flytie]

When doing my DSC1 and during subsequent talks with some interesting Californian gun buffs, the general consensuss was "big and slow rather than small and fast every time". If you are not going to use it at long range it should be fine. Bullet selection, as normal, is critical.

 

I have seen muntys have their front ends completely mangled by a friends 30.06 and other ones with very little damage. The only difference was the type of bullet.

 

A lot of guff is talked about the transfer of kinetic energy by bullets, if you read up on it you find its a very interesting subject. For a little taster try this link, http://www.chuckhawks.com/energy_transfer.htm

 

ft

[Ronin]

Often pndered on getting a 30/30 or 45/70 lever gun for CQB on roe on woodland

[njc110381]

I looked at the .30-30. It looks like it would make quite a good close range woodland Deer calibre. As with all the lever gun calibres the trajectory is poor but inside 100 yards it doesn't matter much anyway.

[flytie]

I looked at the .30-30. It looks like it would make quite a good close range woodland Deer calibre. As with all the lever gun calibres the trajectory is poor but inside 100 yards it doesn't matter much anyway.

njc, during the foot and mouth fiasco two local deer managers helped out with the cull. They both used .30-30 lever action rifles. In fact they shot them out, twice!!!!! It is a very effective round that our cousins across the pond just love.

 

ft