Berger video/ Best of the West vol 2

[kip270]

Berger

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=voyw1H-0CBI

 

 

Best of the west vol2

 

[Guest martin]

I have to admit that I do have trouble coming to terms with some of these extreme shots on large animals.I know I might be in a minority on here,but,I just feel a little bit of respect is being missed.Saying that,when they drop it is very impressive,but,I'm guessing for every one that drops dead there are plenty that run on to die led up somewhere,and,you will never see those on the videos.............martin.

[silentsoulsleave308holes]

one other way to look at it though is that I can proberble group better at 300-400 yards than a guy who has a stalking rig, stalks only a few times a year and visits the range once in a blue moon.

 

so if he is happy with 3-4" groups at 100 yards "coz it will put a round where its needed" and would consider taking a deer at say 150, 175 or even 200 yards then how far can I shoot (just a thought)

 

everyone is entitled to their own opinion and there are guys would shouldnt shoot at long range because of lack of knowledge and real time skill

 

we are shooting tiny lumps of that which promotes growth and vigour, rabbits, petals (on the ground), eggs, oranges, apples, melons and anything else we can find to take safe shots at, at ranges from 100 to 1000 plus and we are doing it all the time so we know our limitations

 

what I would like to think is that a guy (and not saying anyone in particular) who I may bump into that has a stalking rifle and only shoots once in a blue moon but disgusted by the idea that someone would consider shooting "any animal" past 100 yards (because that is what he has been taught be another incompetent shot at a deer stalking course) ( again no pop at any one in particular, but honestly? 4" at 100 yards, if my gun did over 1" at 100 yards, even under the stress of an examination, I would wrap it round a tree )

 

sorry gone off track but I would like to think that he wouldnt be so stubborn that he wouldnt want to come out and whitness what we do for himself, hopefully

 

so........... no dig intended to or for anyone, if you dont feel confident dont do it, if you feel confident then prove it to yourself time and time again on something other than animals at first

[brown dog]

I have to admit that I do have trouble coming to terms with some of these extreme shots on large animals.I know I might be in a minority on here,but,I just feel a little bit of respect is being missed.Saying that,when they drop it is very impressive,but,I'm guessing for every one that drops dead there are plenty that run on to die led up somewhere,and,you will never see those on the videos.............martin.

 

 

I'm rather with Martin on this one. (Although I agree wholeheartedly with silent's points on 4" 100m groupers). I'm always a little uneasy with these vids.

 

The issue isn't, to my mind, about grouping ability at the long ranges -I'll assume their rifles can group 'well' at long range- it's about WIND.

[rabbit fingers]

I practice in a similar way to silentsoulsleave308holes and use a lot of ammo doing so BUT when I go deer stalking thats what I do. Stalk deer. If all that practice has taught me anything it's that too much can go wrong at long range and our quarry deseves better.

[Guest martin]

I would just like to say,I have nothing but admiration for you long range boys,and,I do understand that it doesn't happen overnight,you obviously practice all of the time,and,the main thing I think I have a problem with is the odd time you get a skimming/gut shot,or worse a face shot that would stop the animal being able to eat,and,it must happen now and again......or am I wrong? Just the other day there was a post of a rabbit alledgedly being gut shot,myself,as I put in the thread don't belive that it was anything but a skimming fur shot,but,you know what I mean,and,some of these blokes from the States are shooting VERY BIG animals Deer/Bear etc. at astronomical ranges,and,a strong gust of wind could mean that a perfect head shot could very easily become a lower jaw shot off,and,an animal that is going to die in agony.And,at those sorts of ranges you can't guarantee a proper follow up shot,now,I know you can never guarantee a follow up shot even at 150-200yds,but,it would/should be a whole lot easier to get one off.

I will go on to say,that although I do not participate in this activity,I would fight for your right to do so........Martin.

[brown dog]

at astronomical ranges,and,a strong gust of wind could mean that a perfect head shot could very easily become a lower jaw shot off,and,an animal that is going to die in agony.

 

Martin,

 

it's not a 'strong gust' that'll mess things up;

 

hunting at long range it's as little as being out by 1 or 2 mph on your wind call; or not noticing a 1 or 2 mph change.

 

 

 

In order to quantify this, think of wind in terms of "inches of deflection per 1 mph change".

 

Forgive me if I quote myself from elsewhere to illustrate the point:

 

 

Is the 308 suitable for hunting at 1000yds?

 

....well here's another way of looking at it:

 

 

 

If you are capable of making your wind call over the whole 1000yds to within 1mph; then yes.

 

If you are able to notice 1mph wind changes over the whole 1000yds ; then yes.

 

Otherwise; No.

 

 

 

Why?

 

(Taking Factory 175gr GMM as an example)

 

A 10mph wind will push the bullet 98.7 inches at 1000yds.

 

This means every 1mph change pushes the bullet 9.87inches at 1000yds (lets call it 10 inches for ease).

 

So

 

Even if you are capable of grouping with a 308 to 0.0001MOA at 1000 yds (and you won't be),

 

for every 1 mph you misjudge the wind, you will miss your POA by 10 inches.

 

Miss a 2mph wind change and your bullet goes 20inches wide of the aiming point.

 

 

 

...and that's forgetting the natural dispersion of your group compounding the error.

 

So, to answer the original question again :

 

If you're capable of consistently shooting your 308 within 0.5 MOA of your POA (ie shooting a sub 1 MOA group centred on your POA) at 1000yds and can make your wind calls and note changes over the whole 1000yds to within 1mph; then 'maybe', you'd be able to contemplate attempting a deer at that range, humanely, with a 308.

 

But it would be a poor and unforgiving choice (and the animals would the ones paying the price).

 

If you're not at that standard (and I'll wager there's not a man on this site that is); please forget using a 308 on game animals at 1000yds.

 

Obviously 308 at 1000yds is a pretty extreme example, but if an individual considers their deflection-per-mph-wind-change at a distance they're considering; add that to their group size at that range (under field conditions at long range, 2 MOA is a realistic group 'guarantee' for most good shots) and then compare that to the size of the animal's kill zone, they should quickly get an idea of what their max range should be, based on their wind reading capability.

 

And if anyone is claiming first round wind reading guaranteed better than to the nearest 5-10mph over unknown and broken ground they're ...err.... kidding themself.

 

It doesn't take much to get blown out of the animal's kill zone.

 

I think Boddington has a very neat way of summarising it:

 

"This isn't combat".

[Guest martin]

That was very informative BD thanks for that,it really does mean that I doubt I will be changing my mind on the activity any time soon.Is there anyone on this forum that would put their hand on their heart and say that they would consider taking a deer at those sort of distances,and,be confident of a clean kill.....................martin.

[Guest Tiff]

And if anyone is claiming first round wind reading guaranteed better than to the nearest 5-10mph over unknown and broken ground they're ...err.... kidding themself.

 

It doesn't take much to get blown out of the animal's kill zone.

 

 

Is there anyone on this forum that would put their hand on their heart and say that they would consider taking a deer at those sort of distances,and,be confident of a clean kill.....................martin.

 

Just thought I'd address the issues raised in these quotes:

 

BD I think there is one element you haven't taken into account, many of us will not even consider shooting long range on larger animals unless the wind is virtually non existent. Many summer evenings here there is no breeze or virtually none to be found - certainly no more than 2mph. Also you can learn to read the wind with a lot of practice, not precisely but reasonably well over ground you know. So on an perfectly still evening (get about 20-30 a year here) the largest variation in wind is about 0-2mph. At 500yards if I missed this 2mph wind shift it would move my 208grain bullet with a MV of around 3,350fps about 2". Considering the BDS cry for within 4" of the kill zone , and on a red the vitals are considerably more than that....how is what I'm doing wrong? So if you take a true 1/2MOA rifle plus this missed wind drift, your 4.5" out. This is all worse case scenario and I've seen much worse on BDS range days off sticks at 100!

 

Martin I have shot deer at ranges that many 'traditionalist' wouldn't like. The thing is I will only take the shot if I'm 99% certain of a clean kill. The only deer I've never dropped with the first shot was at 8 yards with 12bore slug and it was pumped full of adrenaline after a minor RTA....

[silentsoulsleave308holes]

constantly shooting at a 100 yards and no more (which is what a majority do) means that taking shots at 200, 300, 400 and 500 is like totally wow and seams miles and miles away

 

constantly shooting at 600,700,800 and 1000 makes shooting at 500 a doddle, certainly for people like myself, tiff and others who shoot out there, shooting a deer at 200, 300, 400, 500 in the right conditions is easy (in the right conditions)

 

allthough I have had first round hits at stuff like an a4 size steel plate at 1006 yards in a 20mph full value wind I wouldnt go out and shoot a cold shot at a deer at that range

 

I would be happy to do a long shot at a deer if we were say shooting at 400, 500, 600 etc etc if we were out shooting at long range, had been grouping really well then suddenly a deer pops out right where we have been shooting.

 

in this situation I can be more confident than a in a blue moon stalker taking a deer of sticks at 100, 125, 150.

 

[Guest varmartin]

BrownDog, your views are respected on here, but as Silent said....this is something we do a lot of...in fact we hardly ever shoot for group at 100 yards any more...

 

Take a look at `Varminters` group shooting skills at 335 yards with his PH 7.62

Take a look at `Oneholes`TRG .308 group at 500 yards .

 

All shot in a 10 MPH blustery wind....But the same wind call is what it is about.. ( and not a wind flag in sight )

 

Also ..if you would. Can you please give us a run down of your `Long Range` Rig so we can have a better understanding of you and your capabilities.

[brown dog]

BD I think there is one element you haven't taken into account, many of us will not even consider shooting long range on larger animals unless the wind is virtually non existent. Many summer evenings here there is no breeze or virtually none to be found - certainly no more than 2mph. Also you can learn to read the wind with a lot of practice, not precisely but reasonably well over ground you know. So on an perfectly still evening (get about 20-30 a year here) the largest variation in wind is about 0-2mph. At 500yards if I missed this 2mph wind shift it would move my 208grain bullet with a MV of around 3,350fps about 2". Considering the BDS cry for within 4" of the kill zone , and on a red the vitals are considerably more than that....how is what I'm doing wrong? So if you take a true 1/2MOA rifle plus this missed wind drift, your 4.5" out. This is all worse case scenario and I've seen much worse on BDS range days off sticks at 100!

 

Tiff,

 

I understand what you're saying; but I think most people don't understand (or think about) the values /quantities at play here. If you've been quantifying your potential deflection error on these shots and using that as a GO/NO GO (ie get closer) then you're doing this the right way. I would observe that considering your rifle 0.5 MOA is unrealistic in 'guarantee' terms. That's the rifle, not the shooter-rifle 'system' under field conditions. I would offer that once you consider the 'system' it is rarely realistic to guarantee field accuracy better than within 1 MOA of POA (ie 2 MOA group); and, at deer, we're talking 'guarantee' here.

 

A clever way of applying this quickly is to visualise the killzone (as say, a piece of A4 in Landscape) and place your POA 1MOA in from the windward edge (ie even if the wind ceases, you still guarantee a kill-hit within your 2MOA system guarantee -in effect you are visualising drawing your 2MOA guarantee as a circle disc and fitting it inside the leading edge of the A4 sheet). Then determine go/no go by calculating how much wind will take any part of your 2moa 'guarantee disc' out of the leeward edge of the A4 sheet -and deciding whether you have the wind more accurately, all the way to the target, than that.

 

When you do the maths, 'no wind' and 2MOA system limits humane shots at A4 size kill zones to less than 4-500yds (and remember, 2 MOA is a guarantee level of within 1 MOA of POA, not "sometimes I can do 0.3MOA with my rifle at 100m on a no-wind range day")

 

Which is why I feel uneasy watching 900yd + deer videos.

[rabbit fingers]

Hats off to you guys if you can shoot that well but there is another point that I'd like to raise. If you are culling you presumably want to leave the best quality beasts on the hill and take the lesser off it. How can you tell which is which at 5-600+ yards. Ok high mag scopes or telescope etc can help but it's not the same as getting into them and seeing the full picture.

[brown dog]

Take a look at `Varminters` group shooting skills at 335 yards with his PH 7.62

Take a look at `Oneholes`TRG .308 group at 500 yards .

 

Martin,

 

Apologies, didn't see your post whilst I was busy typing my answer to Tiff.

 

Grateful if you'd have a read of that reply; you'll see that I would argue that group size at a given range is just one issue to consider when attempting to guarantee hits.

 

What's actually critical is realistic quantification of the distance between the POA and your outermost bullet

 

For eg- a 0.5MOA group landing 3/4 of an inch from POA is actually putting it's outermost bullet 1 MOA from target centre.

 

That 1 MOA is an error radius relative to POA; not a diameter; so in that example, the "0.5 MOA grouper" is actually landing his shots in a circular error subtending 2 MOA

 

My kit?

 

I thought I bored people to tears over that!

[shootingbags]

Gents,

 

I think the point that Brown Dog was getting at was that if you shoot a deer at 100/150/200 yards and get an injured deer , irrespective of wether you can shot a .25 " group at 100yards or a 4" group at 100 yards ,it is pretty easy to get a second shot off or move yourself a couple of hundred yards very quickly.

 

If the same happened at 1000 yards, if the deer moved nearer/further away , by the time you had used your range finder to get the new distance , dialled in etc you wouldn't have a chance to get a second shot off and by the time you yomped 1000 yards the deer would be long gone.

[Guest Tiff]

Hi Brown Dog, The reason I put true 1/2 MOA rifle is that's under field conditions. While it may be enlarged to 3/4 MOA if I'm having a bad day- any more and I'd throw my rifle in the river That means 3/4MOA at 500 total or 0.375 MOA in either direction of the POA.

 

Some of the kit myself and others have used in not exactly 'traditional'. I used to use a 21lbs F-Class rifle, on a 30lbs rest that had helped me win many competitions, a lot of HPS's at 300 & 500 on the 1/2MOA centers, plus being either 1st/2nd at F-class in Devon and Cornwall for 2 years.

 

So even with the wind error I mentioned earlier of 2" added to this 3/4MOA accuracy, its still about only 4" off POA. Given the size of the larger animals being shot at, with heart/lung kill zones of 8"+ (i.e. reds) the bullet is still going to be in the right place.

 

I'm not blowing my trumpet in any way here. I'm just trying to illustrate that with a lot of practice, the right kit and in the right conditions you can consistently maintain the required accuracy to shoot out a lot further.

 

As to the point about not being able to shoot a second shot if the target is further away etc, again it all comes down to practice. Virtually no one I know shoots long range without having a shooting partner that will be using the range finder constantly. The idea is you range various objects around the deer and either write them down or memorize them prier to the shot. Then if the animal does run a bit it, it is possible to be ready with the shot as soon as it stops. This is why I'll only shoot further when I know for 150+ yards in either direction there's no cover for it to hide behind. You'll see this shooter/spotter technique being used in many of the videos on the web.

 

As I'm trying to say I believe it all comes down to having the right kit, experience and knowledge to shoot long range correctly and in my mind ethically.

 

N.B If you've ever been next to a shot North American elk or Canadian moose you'll realise that the kill zone is getting on 16"+ on many

[brown dog]

Shootingbags,

 

Thanks for the interpretation; but that isn't quite what I was trying to say I abhor the “4" at 100m is good enough” mentality; years ago on my DSC1 shoot there was a fellow there from a preceding course doing a re-test because he couldn't achieve a 4" group -and he kept trying to face save by muttering to all and sundry “I can’t understand it, I’m OK on deer” (and, to my mind, speed of second shot depends on the shooter, the behaviour of the animal and the terrain rather than the range alone (eg a slow bloke wounding a deer at 40m that jumps into brush versus a fast bloke finishing a hunched deer on open terrain at 300m)

 

Tiff, Martin,

 

Typed a long reply at work today, but got interrupted and it timed-out –can’t bring myself to re-type the whole thing; here’s a bit in brief:

 

What I’m trying to explain, and what most shooters watching these videos don’t understand is the error budget at play in ‘hit probability’ –not in grouping theory; in ‘hit probability’.

 

As soon as you’ve fired your first ‘adjusting round’ at a target you’ve directly measured the environmental effects; and can adjust subsequent shots accordingly…but we’re not in that business with shots at game animals; the first round hit probability has to be assessed realistically.

 

(and Tiff, kudos to you on your wins, but I have trouble buying 0.25moa either side of target centre at 500yds–without adjustment from an opening sighter or two –changing light conditions alone can move the POI vertically 0.5MOA (or left or right for a low sun). I don’t for a moment question your grouping ability, nor your ability to move that group onto POA based on observed shots; but I would question a claim to routinely superimpose that group on target centre without sighters).

 

Lets say a “0.5MOA” grouper at 100yds (lets not forget many people mistakenly believe the group size-range relationship is linear) prints his 0.5moa group half an inch off dead-nuts centre of his POA. His outermost round could be 0.75MOA from his POA. That’s an error radius of 0.75MOA. His circular error actually subtends twice that: 1.5MOA. So, in hit probability terms, this 0.5MOA shooter actually has a circular hit probability that subtends 1.5 MOA -doesn’t sound quite so cool does it?

 

At game animals we’re in the business of guarantee; so let’s round that 1.5moa to 2 moa to give ourselves an additional 0.25moa fudge factor around the tgt to allow for those 0.75moa group days

 

Thus, at a range the shooter can achieve 0.5MOA groups, his unadjusted hit probability actually spans a 2MOA disc over any given POA -before we consider wind!

 

Taking this eg to an A4 size kill zone at 400yds; firstly the disc only just fits, and secondly; you can’t move it much laterally until it comes off the sheets about 3.5” …..so you have to know your wind call is accurate to better than 3.5” of deflection to take that shot.

 

Similar data at 500yds –firstly the 2 MOA disc doesn’t fit; but if we ignore that, the shooter now has only 2” of deflection to play with……ie he has to be confident of his wind call to less than 2” of deflection to guarantee a kill-hit.

 

Thus, for an individual who can group to 0.5moa at 500yds, that sets an ethical limit of 500yds or less in winds that have deflection values of less than 2-4”

 

 

 

..rather long for a brief answer! J

 

 

and interestingly (although it’s calculated from hit probability rather than grouping theory), …Tiiff, it roughly matches your stated capability for no wind days

 

 

Right, that's sorted, when can I invite myself down to shoot across one of your beanfields?!

[Guest varmartin]

Some time back a couple years ago when some of us Cornish boys started getting into serious long range accurate shooting we went out to a large flat open field and set some targets out at a rough 500 yards.

 

The intention was to shoot a group, call the wind and test our first round hit and grouping capability.

 

My rifle of choice was my Custom built RG Rifles 6MMBR chambered for a VLD heavy for caliber bullet.

 

On the day I was actually firing a 95 grain Berger VLD @3000 fps.

 

We Lasered the range ( 565 yards ) set out a wind meter at our firing point and made ready to shoot a group.

 

I dialed in the corrections ( 20x mag Leupold scope )and fired five rounds in quick succession.

 

(Having trouble with the image ,but this was the resulting group )

 

 

http://i587.photobucket.com/albums/ss311/v...zeWizard-1g.jpg

[brown dog]

Martin,

 

Good group!

 

I can't match that;

 

I still find myself struggling with 18" wide targets:

 

 

[Guest varmartin]

That's some terrain !!

 

need any tips ?

[Guest Tiff]

Maybe there could be a Cornish contingent trip with you to WMS some time? Or a UKV trip there. I've always wanted to go, but at £150 a day each, its a bit steep for just myself and stalking partner.....

 

What do you all think?

 

P.S. Don't know if they've invented a non-windy day yet in wales, could this be arranged please!

[Elwood]

Maybe there could be a Cornish contingent trip with you to WMS some time? Or a UKV trip there. I've always wanted to go, but at £150 a day each, its a bit steep for just myself and stalking partner.....

 

What do you all think?

 

P.S. Don't know if they've invented a non-windy day yet in wales, could this be arranged please!

 

Tiff there's possibly one being organized on the BBS.

[Guest Tiff]

Tiff there's possibly one being organized on the BBS.

 

Ah, but they don't like me there....apparently rabbit or pheasant + .300 RUM = ban

Personally I've always seen.......rabbit or pheasant + .300 RUM = finely diced stew

 

Reckon they'll have me back?

[Ronin]

Excellent discussion chaps.

 

The crux of the matter is know and stay within your limitations.

 

Try this, next time you are practicing - it may assist;

 

 

Place a series of targets (4 inch squ beer mats or similar) at various distances and positions around your range.

 

One shot at each from differeing positions - not the same firing point and not from a comfortable bench using field positions (standing, prone with bipod etc etc)

 

Now see how you do, easiest way I know of finding how good your wind call and accuracy is.

 

Easy to shoot groups - well kind of, but we are not shooting groups, we are looking at one shot placed in the kill zone.

 

Practice in rain, wind and sun.

 

Whilst the following pics have been posted before, the theory is the same.

 

500+ mtrs (4 inch target)

 

 

Same distance, different rifle and shooter (the bottom group was this chaps first attempt at extended ranges)

 

 

 

I know my own limits, wind reading is the key and its the most difficult thing to master - the shooting is "easy" compared to this.

 

 

If anyone wants a good source of info on wind reading visit Louis Corkorans site you will lear alot:

 

http://www.longrangeresearchinstitute.com/

[shootingbags]

Shootingbags,

 

Thanks for the interpretation; but that isn't quite what I was trying to say

 

 

Sorry Brown Dog, I stand corrected