Hobbit Posted May 19, 2019 Report Share Posted May 19, 2019 Hello would be great to get some advice on loads (N140 especially) and projectiles for a Lee enfield After a series of comparatively precision focused rifles, AI AXMC, TRG, Dolphin (BAT+Proof) etc I have got a Lee Enfield No.4 I got it for shooting not collecting so this is a Mk2 Fazakerly fulton regulated with Parker hale 5C sights and one of the newish criterion barrels I am not expecting BAT accuracy obviously and the iron sights themselves will provide new challenges but I would like to minimise ammo related variability. My current plan is to use the sierra matchking 174gr hpbt and Vhit N140 (the former were recommended and I have a lot of N140 for the 308s ). I have a redding body die to bump the shoulder 2 thou to ensure chambering and consistency and reasonable case life with a lee collet neck die (I am using these in a number of calibers instead on my expensive redding micrometer bushing neck dies - as I get better concentricity with unturned brass). I have PPU once fired brass that was a bargain but heard the flash holes are oversized, is Hornady really much better? any other projectiles to consider, N140 load data or better powder, any tips and tricks? Thanks for any info or advice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triffid Posted May 20, 2019 Report Share Posted May 20, 2019 Try one of Stephen Redgwell's books on the subject. He's published a wealth of information on the 303, with both lots of load data and accurising tips. He suggests that your on the right track using the 174gn SMK and N140. Alternatively Reloader 15 or Varget (if you can get it) work well. You can get load data from the manufacturers - Redgwell's max load data for N140 significantly exceeds what Vihtavuori state. His best groups were in the order of 1.6", which gives you an idea of what to expect. Triffid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobbit Posted May 20, 2019 Author Report Share Posted May 20, 2019 Thanks - will have a look for a copy, Any thoughts on accurate N140 loads with the Sierra 174gr HPBT matchking? I have seen 41.5 or 42gr recommended As you say - there is a Stephen Redgwell load of 44gr of N140 for the No.4 but I suspect that is one to work up to I wonder if anyone on here has don the load testing with N140 on a No.4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pigsy Posted May 20, 2019 Report Share Posted May 20, 2019 Hi, I did a fair bit of testing with N140 and SMK 174. Nothing too an*l but wanted to get a nice shooting accurate load. I ended up at 41 grains which I believed is a “go to” load and within Vihts load data. It also works with the PPU 174 bullet so seems stable. I haven’t obsessed about matching it to the rear sight markings although it doesn’t seem too far off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobbit Posted May 20, 2019 Author Report Share Posted May 20, 2019 4 hours ago, pigsy said: Hi, I did a fair bit of testing with N140 and SMK 174. Nothing too an*l but wanted to get a nice shooting accurate load. I ended up at 41 grains which I believed is a “go to” load and within Vihts load data. It also works with the PPU 174 bullet so seems stable. I haven’t obsessed about matching it to the rear sight markings although it doesn’t seem too far off. Thank you, do you know what MV you got with that - I assume it was a 25.2inch barrel? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triffid Posted May 21, 2019 Report Share Posted May 21, 2019 Redgwell's and Vit's max loads give about the same mv - a touch over 2,500fps. But with very different powder charges (44 and 41.7gn of N140 respectively). With this discrepancy, I'd try an OCW load work-up, shooting over a chrony and stopping once I got to the 2,500fps mark. I think Regwell tried three different 303's and didn't find a single load that performed best in all three. Which leads me to the conclusion that your rifle will tell you what it likes if you give it the chance. Perhaps you could post any data and/or conclusions for the benefit of others? Triffid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobbit Posted May 21, 2019 Author Report Share Posted May 21, 2019 Triffid Thank you and will do - I think with old rifle the barrels are so different (apparently even grove sizes vary 311-320+ !!) that the load needs to be tailored as you say. Quick load has 44gr N140 as being plain dangerous in its version of a 303 barrel btw at almost 55kpsi In a very worn throat the pressure would likely not get so high - so its on a per rifle basis as you say Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodgyrog Posted May 21, 2019 Report Share Posted May 21, 2019 Unless you are shooting over 600 yards I'd consider going down the cast boolit route. Just as accurate and a lot cheaper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobbit Posted May 21, 2019 Author Report Share Posted May 21, 2019 I heard that the flat base / spitters can be more accurate due to bearing surface as well - is the SMK HPBT all about better BC but with a potential accuracy penalty?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pigsy Posted May 21, 2019 Report Share Posted May 21, 2019 I don't know the MV I'm afraid Hobbit. It's a LE N04 Mk 1/2 but one of the rebuilt ones and has a new LW barrel. Therefore assuming 25.2" but MV may not match an older bore at any rate? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobbit Posted May 21, 2019 Author Report Share Posted May 21, 2019 got it - thanks - are you happy with the Walther (I assume) barrel accuracy?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pigsy Posted May 21, 2019 Report Share Posted May 21, 2019 Yes - Walther barrel. Definitely happy with it - It will out shoot me and I struggle a little with the standard sights. On a good day maybe 2-3 moa - I would like to try scoped at some point but I enjoy open sights. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SMLE Posted May 21, 2019 Report Share Posted May 21, 2019 If you’re not shooting long distances definitely try the cast bullet option with a powder like unique. My SMLE performs great out to 200 yards with a soft load and that’s about as far as my eyes work on open sights. The Lyman cast bullet book should be your reference in my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terryh Posted May 21, 2019 Report Share Posted May 21, 2019 Just restarted loading for the No4. SMK’s over 41g N140 seems to be doing OK. Again not worried if the ladder sight matches the distance - you can always adjust it. Went the O seals on the new brass route/methods, seems to work very well and makes sense 😎 Forgot how nice they are to shoot. Terry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strangely Brown Posted May 21, 2019 Report Share Posted May 21, 2019 41.8 grs of N140 (under a174gr SMK) is supposed to replicate the MV of the original MkVII round. Having said that I had a No.4 built for me by Fultons for SR"b" a couple of years ago and have been feeding it 41.5gr of N140 but plan to drop it down to 41grs and neck size only. The reason for this is two friends I regularly shoot with have experimented a lot recently with neck resizing and both of them have found their groups have shrunk doing this and both of then use 41gr N140 and a 174gr SMK. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terryh Posted May 22, 2019 Report Share Posted May 22, 2019 Mick, Concur on the neck sizing as best method , hence the O seal on new brass, then only neck size from then on = no case stretching etc. I use a fettled Lee collet die which does just fine. Terry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobbit Posted May 22, 2019 Author Report Share Posted May 22, 2019 Terry how does the "O seal" method work? what is it? I have a lee collet die I am planning to use - it is a 303 one - what fettling is required? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terryh Posted May 22, 2019 Report Share Posted May 22, 2019 Hobbit, First time out with new brass you put a small section O seal on the new case right up against the rim. When you close the bolt this O seal holds the brass hard against the bolt face. when to fire the round the case is then ‘blown out’ to the exact size of the chamber. Only neck sizing from this point onward means the case is not over worked and you will not get the head separation often seen in 303’s. As you should be able to see the brass does change quite a bit. If you FL size the brass and as the 303 has been made in various locations around the globe and will be in different conditions of wear then the FL sizer really is back to minimum spec. To ensure your brass fits, so the next time you fire is it really does have to expand - hence the quite common case failures. Re. ‘Fettling’, if you take the Lee collet die apart you will see that the sizing is carried out by 4 ‘fingers’ that are pushed upwards by the shell holder when it contacts the bottom of the die - this is the cramming action described in the Lee set up instructions. The fingers are pushed up and in when they contact the cone inside the die. If you stone the edges of the cuts so they are not sharp where they contact the inside of the cone they can go up and inwards easier. hope this covers it? Brgds Terry ps there are a slew of wives tales going round, things like ‘the no.4 action flexes’ etc. which causes the brass to stretch, but this is not the case (pun intended 😉). Smashing brass back to minimum specs in a round that was not really designed to be reloaded, not ‘that’ will cause the brass to fail. pls nothing wrong with Lee dies in certain applications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobbit Posted May 27, 2019 Author Report Share Posted May 27, 2019 Terry - very helpful - Thanks i picked up my No.4 mk2 on Saturday - it was regulated by Fultons and then had a Criterion barrel fitted by Richard at Devizes I believe. Not a great collectible but less excuses for me on the shooting front. The limiting factor was very much me - not used to iron sights, sling shooting and brass butt plates (I need better technique or more than a t-shirt - have a decent bruise on my shoulder after 70 rounds) so can't comment on accuracy until I bench it or just get better. I bought both the fultons and the HPS PPU case/174SMK based ammo. I did not use the o ring this time and was surprised at the case growth (65 though using a Hornady head space / cartridge comparator gauge!) - does this sound normal? i'll give my lee collet a polish and use that. Might bump the shoulder a though or so with a Redding body die too. Will then magneto speed the results and post them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terryh Posted May 27, 2019 Report Share Posted May 27, 2019 Bilbo, open sights take a bit of mastering but are accurate once you’ve got the technique sorted. No issues in using a shoulder pad, I do it all the time with steel butt plate BPCR’s, (ignore the no doubt ‘pending’ man jibes - anyone who thinks its smart to hurt themselves is a bit of a *anker IMHO 😁). Yes, that sort of growth is not un-common, as i said brass from the factory has to fit every make/condition of 303 out there so will be made to the smallest dims. If you must size the brass do the absolute minimum. Be interested in your chrono results. Brgds T Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeLaRue Posted May 28, 2019 Report Share Posted May 28, 2019 Hi....I'm lucky to have a 1955 No4 MK2 Fazakerly .303 regulated by Fultons, all original & virtually unfired when I bought it. I settled on 42g of VVN140 using a 174g PPU head with PPU cases, neck sizing only for 3-4 loads & then F/L resize when required, using an LE Wilson fired case rifle gauge, works for me! As previous posters commented case separation can be an issue when you overwork .303 brass, I found that S&B cases were particularly prone to this & found PPU to be O.K. Considering what ranges the rifle was intended for I get really tidy groups at 600yds so well pleased! Good luck! 👍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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