65 creedmoor powders

[Steve steve]

Hi guys , I’m using rs62 like many others, good velocity, good accuracy but I’m just not getting great ES/SD . 

Any ideas on powders for improvement? 

The best load I can get so far shoots .3moa but has a ES around 100fps 

44.3gr rs62 hornady brass 

cci250 

140gr Eldm 

my brass prep is as near perfect as I can get it ! 

[Bob57]

Here's the perfect test for different seating depths,before changing powder, why don't you try touching lands, and backing off in 10thou increments until you don't want to seat any deeper, or have you already tried that?

[Steve steve]

2 hours ago, Bob57 said:

Here's the perfect test for different seating depths,before changing powder, why don't you try touching lands, and backing off in 10thou increments until you don't want to seat any deeper, or have you already tried that?

Hi bob, to be honest accuracy wise the rifle is not fussy with the 140gr eldm, I’ve seated them from 15thou off to 100thou off and seen very little change in acuracy or ES,  the only two things I can point my finger at is either the rs62 powder or the hornady brass to be honest 

cheers steve 

[Bob57]

12 minutes ago, Steve steve said:

Hi bob, to be honest accuracy wise the rifle is not fussy with the 140gr eldm, I’ve seated them from 15thou off to 100thou off and seen very little change in acuracy or ES,  the only two things I can point my finger at is either the rs62 powder or the hornady brass to be honest 

cheers steve 

Ok cheers Steve, sounds like it's time to try another powder, maybe cases too?? Good luck.

 

[Laurie]

Trying different primers may solve it or at least reduce the spread. The CCI-250 is a magnum grade and a fairly 'warm' one at that, not needed for low 40s gn of this powder. Another possible factor is chronograph reliability - many optical models are very sensitive to a change in light level and/or accurate set-up in relation to bullet path so the large ES may not be real.

What sort of pattern are you getting in the whatever number of shots in the group? Spread all over or four reasonable and one far outlier? If the latter have a good look at that case.

Hornady 6.5 Creedmoor brass was frankly rubbish in its early days. It's reportedly improved since, but 300 cases I bought maybe five years ago when we could first get this brass here were poor. For a start they came in two distinct and very different weight bands with a 0.3gn difference between them in fireformed water capacity, more than enough to affect performance. Also ... and this may just be an issue with your cases ...... they had the worst internal burrs frrom flash-hole punching I've seen in any make of case or cartridge model. Two had large 'twists' of metal still ahead of the flash-hole attached to its side at one end and partially blocking it, one as a near quarter inch long figure 8 and the other a bit shorter as a 6 or 9 shape. Flash-hole deburring of most older makes of US brass (Peterson and other new arrivals are much, much better) is usually the one case-prep step that is virtually guaranteed to make a real-life improvement. Tool cost is modest and it's an easy one-off job.

[Steve steve]

20 hours ago, Laurie said:

Trying different primers may solve it or at least reduce the spread. The CCI-250 is a magnum grade and a fairly 'warm' one at that, not needed for low 40s gn of this powder. Another possible factor is chronograph reliability - many optical models are very sensitive to a change in light level and/or accurate set-up in relation to bullet path so the large ES may not be real.

What sort of pattern are you getting in the whatever number of shots in the group? Spread all over or four reasonable and one far outlier? If the latter have a good look at that case.

Hornady 6.5 Creedmoor brass was frankly rubbish in its early days. It's reportedly improved since, but 300 cases I bought maybe five years ago when we could first get this brass here were poor. For a start they came in two distinct and very different weight bands with a 0.3gn difference between them in fireformed water capacity, more than enough to affect performance. Also ... and this may just be an issue with your cases ...... they had the worst internal burrs frrom flash-hole punching I've seen in any make of case or cartridge model. Two had large 'twists' of metal still ahead of the flash-hole attached to its side at one end and partially blocking it, one as a near quarter inch long figure 8 and the other a bit shorter as a 6 or 9 shape. Flash-hole deburring of most older makes of US brass (Peterson and other new arrivals are much, much better) is usually the one case-prep step that is virtually guaranteed to make a real-life improvement. Tool cost is modest and it's an easy one-off job.

I use a magneto speed for a chrono, I’ve used it along side my 6.5 on my other rifles to eliminate the chrono/ my reloading! 

The brass I’m using is now 3x fired (started life as factory ammo all the same batch)  you’re correct re the flash holes being crap! I uniformed them and the primer pockets before reloading them for there first reload, I’ve not weight sorted them or checked volume.

i might buy some lapua to see what improvement I can get, 

after doing a work up I just fired 20 rounds of the most accurate group

cci 250 , Hornady brass 2nd firing FLS,  44.3gr (compressed) , rs62, 2.810oal , no pressure signs whatsoever  , 140gr eldm, consistently shooting .3moa  24” tikka tac 

2660 clean cold barrel 

2702. 2695.  2673.  2672.  2672.  2759.  2692.  2691.  2662.  2715.  2738.  2686.  2688.  2730.  2732.  2718.  2665.  2691.  2686.  

 Es 99. Sd 27.6 magneto speed 

[Laurie]

Hmmmm .... there's something not right there, especially when accompanied by such good groups. Have you tried this load out to a decent distance, say 600 yards? If it still shoots well at that, it again points to something 'funny' in the reported MVs.

The MagnetoSpeed is very good, but I'd do a battery condition check. I'm reliably told the chronograph gives inaccurate / variable results at particular level of battery condition and that's reached long before the battery fails. I don't know what that level is, but in the days when I used these devices I found the battery check pretty quickly showed voltage dropping from 9V to 8.3/8.4V with a new battery where it seemed to stabilise and determined I'd replace it once it dropped below 8.3V.

Otherwise, try different primers in the Hornady cases. I got good ES values with the CCI-BR2 in the Creedmoor with RS62 in both Norma and Hornady brass. Lapua brass would be well worth trying, but at 44.3gn, I suspect you'll need to replace the Hornady cases pretty quickly anyway.

There is an anomoly there in any event in that 44.3gn is a pretty stout load and you should be getting higher MVs than c.2,710 fps. QuickLOAD predicts ~60,000 psi and 2,830 fps. Even though QL tends to overstimate RS62 performance in the cartridge, that's a large discrepancy. So again, either your measured MVs have a reliability issue or there is a primer performance issue. (A decent firing pin strike on every primer?) Unless your battery was new, I'd try that avenue first, and if no change to the results swap primers - but drop the charge and work up again.

 

 

[One on top of two]

In my tic Tac A1 with 24 “ barrel  ( total shot count to date 364 )

lapua brass /small flash hole 

Lapua scenar 139 grn

 Seated 30 thou off lands 

full lenth sized , 

X 4 times fired 

RS 62 powder 

CCI 450 

powder.               HI.             Low.          Average.      SD 

44 g.                    2696.         2686.         2691.           4.1

44.2 g.                 2717.         2693.         2703.           12

44.4 g.                2731.          2712.          2721.          7.8 

44.6 g.               2749.          2735.          2743.           5.9

44.7 g.               2762.         2744.           2754.          6.8 

magneatospead V3 

[Laurie]

That's the sort of SD range I'd expect. I got bit higher but still very reasonable values with Norma large primer brass and the SP Brass will usually give a decent ES/SD reduction.

On MVs, bearing in mind that the SP / small flash-hole Lapua brass (which I've no experience of in this cartridge, but do in 308 and 7-08) needs anything between 0.5 and 1.5gn more powder to achieve large primer velocities and there is a report somwehere on UKV in another topic that gives figures from somebody with direct experience that supports that in this cartridge. Given One on Top of Two's SP case MVs are pretty well what you're getting with the more potently primed cases again suggests your recorded MVs are lower than they should be for some reason. Of course, no two rifles even from the same maker produce identical MVs, but even so.

[TJC]

6 hours ago, Laurie said:

That's the sort of SD range I'd expect. I got bit higher but still very reasonable values with Norma large primer brass and the SP Brass will usually give a decent ES/SD reduction.

On MVs, bearing in mind that the SP / small flash-hole Lapua brass (which I've no experience of in this cartridge, but do in 308 and 7-08) needs anything between 0.5 and 1.5gn more powder to achieve large primer velocities and there is a report somwehere on UKV in another topic that gives figures from somebody with direct experience that supports that in this cartridge. Given One on Top of Two's SP case MVs are pretty well what you're getting with the more potently primed cases again suggests your recorded MVs are lower than they should be for some reason. Of course, no two rifles even from the same maker produce identical MVs, but even so.

Agreed. 

I’m getting 2810 FPS with 43.3gr RS62 in Lapua SRP brass with the Berger 140gr and am getting low single digit SD in a 26”. 44.0gr gives me almost 2900 FPS. 

[One on top of two]

2 hours ago, TJC said:

Agreed. 

I’m getting 2810 FPS with 43.3gr RS62 in Lapua SRP brass with the Berger 140gr and am getting low single digit SD in a 26”. 44.0gr gives me almost 2900 FPS. 

It’s amazing what an extra couple of inches can do 😜

[VarmLR]

In my Tic-Tac (as above), this is the average taken over several reloading batches:

RS 62;  Scenar 139 loaded 20 thou off lands;  Murom KVB-223 Magnum  primers;  44g RS62, Lapua SRP Brass;

 

MV average = 2705fps;  SD = 11;  ES = 15  (Best was SD5;  ES9:  Worst was SD16; ES 30)

Group average (still day 100yds):  0.3 moa

Group (best) = 0.18moa

Group (worst) = 0.68 moa

Group best (600m) = 0.75moa

Group best (900m) = 1.1 moa 

Haven't tried different primers but have some CCI 250s to play with.  May switch to LRP Brass as loads are more economical and folk seem to be getting equivalent ES/SD with large rifle brass loads.

[Steve steve]

On 3/11/2019 at 9:55 PM, Laurie said:

Hmmmm .... there's something not right there, especially when accompanied by such good groups. Have you tried this load out to a decent distance, say 600 yards? If it still shoots well at that, it again points to something 'funny' in the reported MVs.

The MagnetoSpeed is very good, but I'd do a battery condition check. I'm reliably told the chronograph gives inaccurate / variable results at particular level of battery condition and that's reached long before the battery fails. I don't know what that level is, but in the days when I used these devices I found the battery check pretty quickly showed voltage dropping from 9V to 8.3/8.4V with a new battery where it seemed to stabilise and determined I'd replace it once it dropped below 8.3V.

Otherwise, try different primers in the Hornady cases. I got good ES values with the CCI-BR2 in the Creedmoor with RS62 in both Norma and Hornady brass. Lapua brass would be well worth trying, but at 44.3gn, I suspect you'll need to replace the Hornady cases pretty quickly anyway.

There is an anomoly there in any event in that 44.3gn is a pretty stout load and you should be getting higher MVs than c.2,710 fps. QuickLOAD predicts ~60,000 psi and 2,830 fps. Even though QL tends to overstimate RS62 performance in the cartridge, that's a large discrepancy. So again, either your measured MVs have a reliability issue or there is a primer performance issue. (A decent firing pin strike on every primer?) Unless your battery was new, I'd try that avenue first, and if no change to the results swap primers - but drop the charge and work up again.

 

 

I shot the last 15 of the above 20 shots at a plate at 512 yards, group was around 5 inches, the first 5 shots were 100yrds 0.3moa, factory 140gr Eldm shoots 0.3 moa exactly the same as my loads and has approximately 100fps Es for me 

[Steve steve]

People seem to be doing a lot better in lapua brass by the looks of things 

[One on top of two]

As well as Lapua brass I have had similar if not the same results with Norma , Peterson , I’m also considering switching to large primer as well . Some early testing I done showed no difference between large /small primer