Long range rifle advice

[njc110381]

Right guys. I've been thinking recently that I'd like to get into long range target shooting. I have no idea at all what this involves, or what sort of rifle would be a good choice. It would have to be a cheaper job, not a multi thousand pound project like some of you take on. For a start, what sort of calibre would be good? As a total stab in the dark I was thinking about a used Sako TRG42 in .300 win mag? Would that be a good choice, or could I get something better for the money?

 

Thanks in advance for any ideas. This may not happen for some time, it's just something I'm considering getting into if I can afford to!

[Greenbear]

Hi Neil,

 

Personally I have stayed with a .308, I have hit targets at 1200 metres at Sennybridge with it, half the powder of a .300, half the recoil and a much cheaper round to buy when purchsing surplus ammo.

 

There is an array of excellent rifles on the market, I did have a TRG in .308, but currently have heavy barrelled Kronesburg which does the job just fine (£100)

 

The .300 is an excellent round (speak to silent) but for all round ability and cost you can't beat a .308

 

 

cheers

 

 

GB

[njc110381]

Thanks GB, that could be some very good advice. So a .308 can be pushed out to 1200 yards, that's a long way! I do have my 6.5x55 which is supposed to be a good long range calibre (so I've read) but the S&B 8x56 I have on it isn't ideal for long range. It's also a sporter weight barrel, so just generally not a good target rifle.

 

Does anyone else have any info they'd like to share with me? There are a lot of really knowledgable guys on here so I was hoping that the subject of a little long range shooting may have prompted some discussion on what everyone thinks is best!

 

My mate has a TRG 21 in .308. What a lovely rifle that is! Maybe I should look for one of those? What's the difference between the TRG21 and TRG22, apart from age?

[Guest Tiff]

As mentioned .308 is a good 'friendly' cartridge to start with. The TRG differences between the 21/22 & 41/42 are relatively subtle and each number has various differences in age of production. Basically they progressively tweaked the stock design, receiver groves/base holes and recoil stops and a few other things. Don't pass by a 21 or 41 for the newer version, they are just as good. For the best on some gallery ranges and FFA .338 LM is tough to beat, but a .300 anything would be cheaper, more bullet selection and can be shot on any range allowing upto 7,000 joules. With the 240 MK, .71-.73 BC at 3,000+ it is a very stong combination.

[Ronin]

All of the above info is good, but what about the humble 7mm Rem Mag?

 

 

I know of two guys with Sendero's (Rem 700's) that shoot regularly out to and beyond 1000 yards with 168 SMK's on standard barrels and are very, very accurate rifles... in fact a month ago I was next to one engaging targets out to 1400 mters

 

 

The 308 is great, but personally I think its at the very edge of its envelope at 1200 yards...

[njc110381]

Thanks for the replies so far.

 

Another consideration I've thought of is barrel life. I'm guessing the .308 would be pretty good? How about a .300WM or 7mmRM?

 

The .338 sounds amazing, but too expensive and powerful for me I think. I'd like to be able to shoot it on a standard rifle range. How many Joules would you expect to get from a .300WM? I wish they'd work in ft-lbs because I understand that, how many ft-lbs is 7000 joules?

 

I fully understand the optics comment. I bought loads of scopes trying to get results before I bought a Leupold, and now I wish I'd saved my money and just paid out to start with! My stalking rifle has a S&B on it which I think is very good. I'd probably try to get one of those to go on a long range gun as they seem very clear and well made.

[Ronin]

7000 joules = 5162 ft lbs

 

 

300 Winnie with 185 grain scenars going at about 3000fps = 3823ft lbs energy

[njc110381]

Thanks Ronin. I should have got a rough idea from when the new range limits were being discussed. I remember the 4500j limit being suggested was a little close to the .308 for comfort. Is it 7000j now then? That's pretty reasonable and takes in most every day rifles. My .375H&H is safely inside the limit. I guess it may bug the .50cal users, but in all fairness that is a bloody big round isn't it!

 

Tiff mentions a 240 MK. What is that?

[Ronin]

240 grain Sierra Match King

 

(240 SMK)

 

 

 

You would be surprised how many places there are to shoot larger calibres - if you joined the FCSA UK several military ranges open up for your use where anything upto and including 50 cal is allowed.

 

Just because one cant shoot Higher Energy calibres at Bisley, doesnt mean to say that they are banned for use elsewhere, where restrictions are less draconian.

[ds1]

Hard to go wrong with a Sako TRG 41 / 42. The TRG 41 was available in 6.5x55 also (sadly not the 42).

 

I would be tempted to get a Lapua cartdidge / componets catalogue and see what is available boolit wise - just in case US law gets stupid on exporting componets.

 

A few years ago here (cz) a comp was held at 1000m - top 2 places went to 6.5x55 with a few 338 Laps and 300WM behind that, top 308 was 9th place.

 

I do find 338 Lapua easier to reload for than 6.5x55 for some reason - or at least ES is lower. Also with a good brake recoil is a non issue.

 

David.

[njc110381]

Right, thanks. 240 grn Matchking, I went through all the bullets I could think of and didn't come up with that

 

I still think a 338 Lap would be too big. I'd like to be able to use it to snipe at bunnies sometimes, which could be a bit of a push I think. I should get away with a .30 cal though, or a 6.5. I can't think of a production rifle that would make a good long range tool and come in 6.5x55, are there any? Most are either .243 or .308/300win.

 

I did have a quick look at a Steyr SSG Police in .308. They look ok, but not too tactical. Other choices would be a used TRG or maybe a CZ750. I want to avoid a Remington due to things I've read about them. Not sure how true it is but I've heard they need a lot of playing with to make them shoot, when other makers hit the mark straight from the box (ie the TRG).

 

Something like a Unique Alpine would be nice, but a little out of my price range

[ds1]

I know Blaser LRS2`s shoot in 6.5x55 but I would not have another again, other than that in a factory stick nothing springs to mind in the same class as a TRG 41 (but hard to find).

 

If you went short action in 260 rem or 243Win with a fast twist barrel that would get the job done - more options on a short action but it would be custom or at least the barrel.

 

Hmmm.....a second hand TRG 42 in 300 Winnie is looking like a good compromise for the money.

 

david

[njc110381]

I'm starting to think a TRG in .308 may cover my needs? when I said long range I was thinking 600+ yards, so when you guys start talking about 1200 being the ideal limit for the .308 I think it will be plenty good enough! I'm going to let off a few more rounds with my mates TRG21, that should help me decide. The cheap military ammo is what made him buy his, so going on that theory it could be a good plan?

 

It bugs me that I have to pick one or the other for a variation, stupid rules! Why can't we just be given a certificate that states we can have up to a set energy level? 6.5x55 or .260 rem, there's no difference apart from the name and the case shape!

[ds1]

I would price up a few options -

 

6.5x47 Lapua in a Surgeon action, A5 McMillan stock, Bartlein, Border or what ever barrel and Badger bottom metal ( this being the upper end) of custom and what they go for second hand.

 

308 TRG22 secondhand......1700 quid at a guess and less likley to have the barrel shot out.

 

AI AW/ AWP in 308 secondhand.... easier barrel change and its only a barrel to go to 243win or 260 rem.

 

RPA Interceptor secondhand in any of the above cals......probably best bet for the money.

 

Bottom end....Sporting Services is doing a Remmy 700 SPS in an AICS for 1100 quid new.

 

Cz 750.....it`s a dog, crappy plastic stock on a standard 550 action and barrel.....not worth the money.

 

david.

[Alycidon]

You say you already have a 6.5x55.

 

If I were you I would slap some higher power glass on it (Nightforce etc) and take it along and have a bang.

 

That will then give you a feel for the practise and the people shooting it without spending big bucks. Without specialist kit you wont be competitive but at this stage does that matter ?, cant say it would to me.

 

On the caliber issue have you thought about 7mm WSM, some of the F class boys are using it to good effect at up to 1000 yards.

 

A

[Toby]

In my opinion Alycidon hit the nail on the head.Put some high mag glass on the T3 and see what the swede can do.Over here(Norway)the 6,5x55 and 308win are the most popular long range cartridges.Guys shoot out to 1200m here with the swede and good results.I believe that a 139grs Scenar/140grs A-max is the most popular medicine for the 6.5.Try with the standard T3.If you are happy with the cartridge but need a change there's always the T3 varmint/tactical series.-Toby

[njc110381]

There's a used Steyr SSG Police .308 available for £800. Would that be any good?

 

I can see where you're coming from with the 6.5x55 I have now, but it would be a right pain to keep changing the sights for stalking. I've shot as a guest at a couple of clubs with my friends TRG21, and I quite enjoy it. I think I'd get a reasonable amount of use from a target rifle if I was to buy one.

 

The Remington AICS stock looks like it could work, but how good is the base gun? Would I need a new trigger too?

 

The RPA is a nice rifle but single shot. Not sure I like that!

 

There's so much to think about here. I'm tempted to just go for a used TRG in .308, but then there's the barrel wear issue. How easy is it to rebarrel a Sako if it's nearly worn out? I really do like the TRG because I know it works for me. Every time I use my friends it amazes me how accurately I shoot with it. It's an incredible rifle.

[ds1]

800 quid for a SSG P does not sound bad, I think all but the one with the short barrel are push fit barrels - a pain to rebarrel. Think someone on here diid a re-barrel though - cutting receiver threads etc. "Cornishman" has one, from what I remember he said the stock was crap - prone to split and ten round mags were expensive, other than that a very good shooter.

 

Sounds like you do want a Sako - only negatives factory extras are expensive and barrels although screwed on aparently can be hard to get off - have a chat with someone like Ronin here who know about gun plumbing.

 

David.

[njc110381]

Sounds like you do want a Sako - only negatives factory extras are expensive and barrels although screwed on aparently can be hard to get off - have a chat with someone like Ronin here who know about gun plumbing.

 

Tell me about it. I looked at the price of a factory bi-pod for one. Are they made of gold or something

[Alycidon]

To be competitive at 1000 yards you will need to go single shot. The action is more rigid under fireing as the base does not have a hole cut in it for the mag. I dont know if there are disciplines that call for rapid fire/reload at these ranges but for outright accuracy go single shot.

 

A

[Redfox]

No not gold but they are military spec not bent tin and ally.

Sakos are no harder to rebarrel than most others and the factory will do it for a very reasonable price too. Lots of bullet choice on 30 cal and a fair few on 6.5 to go at. Unless you really jack them up both rounds are accurate and easy on the shoulder and easy to sell if you get tired of them.

Redfox

[njc110381]

To be competitive at 1000 yards you will need to go single shot.

 

 

How does this long range lark work exactly, it sounds really hard? The TRG is supposed to run .5MOA, how can you get more accurate than that? I guess at that kind of level it must make some difference to have a more solid action, but how much? I'm never going to be good enough to compete with the best because I don't have the time. I just want to blast some long range paper if I'm honest, with something better suited to the job than my sporters. I'll probably only have time to shoot it once a month because of other commitments, so not enough to get really good.

 

Thanks for the good advice so far. I knew this forum would be the best one to ask on!

[ds1]

Long range, comes down to shooting a fairly high BC bullet, fairly fast and accurately - high BC have an advantage by being deflected less in a given wind condition than lower BC bullets - all other things being equal. Current favorites are things like 6.5x284 and 6.5x55 is good. No free lunch though - barrel life is about 2k round if you are lucky for very good accuracy.

 

Distance - after about 300m it does not take long to realize that 308win begins to struggle a bit in windy conditions against 6.5mm, 7mm rounds.

 

Distance - 308 win goes transonic about 1100 yards - and that is probably in a long barrel rifle, shooting 155 grain Scenars, loaded to near max pressures.

 

But....if you shot say F Class, there is a 308 bi-pod only class (not sure if it includes 223 also) out to 600 yards, again not sure if they run out to 1000 yards, but it levels the playing field on calibre......check with "OSOK" on here.

 

Competitive open F Class do cost.....barrels are consumables (1500 rounds or so), heavy front rest, NF or March optics, Sheane Tracker stock, Jewel trigger, BAT single shot action - not really what you would want to double for field shooting as well - OK that is stretching a point, you could do very well with a RPA Interceptor in 6.5x55. I remember "baldie" beat them all with a 6.5x47 on a Surgeon Repeater action in an A5 stock at Bisley though.

 

Single shot actions - for F class no disadvantage to them and stronger than mag feeders. Research was done some while a go (Rifle Accuracy Facts) putting strain gages(sp?) on a Remmy 700 action and firing it - gages showed different strain suggesting action flex/ movement. The effect would be less with single shot actions, but design and materials have changed - a Surgeon repeater action with built in picatinny rail is going to be strong, look at it this way not many people complain about screwed on picatinny rails flexing or moving under recoil and they are only bolted on (most anyway).

 

I would put it this way - if you want a TRG you would be able to find some F Class and Mc Queens events to shoot. It is a nice versatile rifle, I see a lot of them , I don`t think they are the best of their type rifles but I do think they are very good and very good value for money.

 

David.

[baldie]

Thats a good post Dave.

before you get to the difference between solid and mag fed actions....there is a world of pain awaiting you in hitting that elusive bull. Far more factors will influence the score than how the action is built.

What most benchresters etc wont, or dont like to admit...is the the FACT that, LUCK plays a huge part in high scores at 1000 yards. Look down a range like diggle on a typically windy day, and you may see six wind flags all doing different things. Try getting 5 rounds downrange, when everyone of them is doing the same thing. Its not possible.

Do you know what i think, and its just my opinion , on why people get disillusioned at long range ? they are using an unsuitable calibre. This shags them with the wind, and they struggle. 6.5 or 7mm is the way to go. If you must have a .30 cal, make it a win mag. Its an excellent long range round, as it has the legs for a 1000 yards...accuratly.

I built a .308 last year, and its going shortly. Worst cartridge i,ve ever owned. it will be replaced with a .338. If you are going to shoot a heavy bullet, drive it hard.

[Streeker59]

A lady friend of mine bought a second hand TRG22 from a member of this forum.

It doesn't matter what fodder she puts through it, it nails the "V" bull every time.. Even old 147 grn RG crap finds the middle of the target.. It's the muts nuts !

Seriously considering selling my Sako 75 .243 stainless varmint to fund one..