An insight to Gunsmithing

[Guest varmartin]

Here is a link to a Gunsmithing topic on Snipers Hide........Click to view

[Ronin]

Easy eh?

 

 

Looks just like my own lathe....

[Guest varmartin]

Easy eh?

 

 

Looks just like my own lathe....

 

 

Its only easy if you know what your doing.........me ? I got lost when the guy made the barrel clamp !

[shrek]

Think i need to get myself a blank barrel and have a go!!!

 

I should think the satisfaction of doing your own rebarrling is immence!

[Ronin]

I also think you should get a blank and have a go, you have the machines and skill required.

 

Its a very nice feeling shooting what youv'e put together and getting decent groups

 

Of course, once youre set up, you will never have to pay for another rebarrel job either

[eldon]

Go on then Ronin (or anybody else!), can you give a quick costing for tooling etc to someone with a lathe to re barrel in one calibre?

[Ronin]

My own set up, which has just about all one would need to do blueprint and barrel work (to BR standard) cost me in excess of xxK

 

By BR standard, I mean very tight tolerances - this includes Deltronic measuring pins in various calibres, proper clock guages to .0005", decent mikes, quick change tooling and a lathe that is just about perfect for through the spindle barrel jobs (6 jaw, 3 jaw, 4 jaw and spider chucks, plus outboard spiders) etc etc etc etc etc

 

Also, borescope, various blueprint jigs and a dozen or so reamers.

 

Whilst this may sound like alot of money (it is), I have saved 1000's by doing my own work for myself and the results (as witnessed by some from the site) speak for themselves.

 

 

If I had bought new, the cost would have been 20+k, however, I was fortunate, to be in the right place at the right time

 

To equip for one calibre only if you had the lathe, would only cost the price of a chamber reamer......well almost there is alot more to it than that

[eldon]

So you'd need the reamer, a set of no go/go gauges, a floating reamer holder or could you get away with the tailstock?

 

and what else to do one calibre?

 

Other than general engineering tooling which I suppose most with machining facilities will already have ( mics, tooling etc).

[Ronin]

Dependant on the type of bolt nose, you need tooling for creating tenon, threading and maybe a rebated bolt nose reamer to make the recess foir the bolt nose.

 

 

At the very least,

 

 

Floating reamer holder, piloted reamer and of course a go guage.

 

Chamber untill the bolt closes on the "Go" guage then stop.

 

So estimate cost of $400 if you buy from the states.

 

 

For ONE calibre.

[eldon]

Thanks for the info so far, I can see me digging myself a hole here as I have an empty slot

 

Dependant on the type of bolt nose, you need tooling for creating tenon, threading and maybe a rebated bolt nose reamer to make the recess foir the bolt nose.

 

Have all that but..........

 

Rebated bolt nose reamer whats one of those?

 

Surely if you had a lathe you would just skim out the bolt rebate with a boring bar.

[Ronin]

Boring bar - yes, no problem at all, especially on magnum calibre bolts.

 

 

But, far easier (and quicker) and less open to error is using a piloted .705" counter bore (if your doing a Rem 700 or clone action)

 

Here are a couple of mine (ones for small calibres the other for large calibres - both same size but accept different sized pilot:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Dead simple to use, just get the right size pilot for the barrel bore, fit it to the reamer, insert reamer into floating holder and you cut the counterbore in one easy hit...

 

(well almost as easy as that)

[eldon]

Cheers I have used similar looking tooling for spot facing etc.

Are these best from Brownells along with the other bits and bobs ............ just in case I go down that route

[Ronin]

I get all my reamers, pilots, range rods and counter bores from one place only - Pacific Tool and Guage in the US.

[eldon]

Ronin,

Thanks for info.

[Ronin]

Given the availability of info on smithing on the internet, I dont suppose I am giving anything away by this post.

 

 

 

This is what I do to set up and prep a barrel for chambering - this isnt an advertisement, please dont contact me to do work, cheers

 

If you want work done, there are plenty of decent chaps here who do this for a living

 

 

 

Barrel is a Kreiger 7mm (9tw) and a spare for the forthcoming F Class season for my own rifle (Barnard P action in 7mm/270 WSM).

 

 

Setting up in the lathe using interrapid clocks at the inboard and outboard side of the spindle;, note the guages are .0001" (one ten thousandth increments) on the inboard and .0005" (five tenths) on the outboard side

 

Outbaord side rotated 360 degrees in photo:

 

 

 

 

Guage is just flicking needle runout is .0002" (two tenthousandth of an inch)

 

 

Inboard side rotated 360 degrees:

 

 

 

 

 

Yup, thats zero runout on a .0001" indicator- and its not a "set up shot"

 

Tenon prepped for threading, if any are wondering why a thread relief .100" off the shoulder, the Barnard has a stepped tenon - assists in centralising action, immdiately prior to shoulder / action face contact:

 

 

 

After threading - white stuff is lthiam grease, not man fat

 

 

Partially cut cone for the bolt nose on the Barnard, didnt take a shot of the finished cone,

 

 

Starting to cut chamber

 

 

First the throat, then the neck

 

 

A bit deeper, all going well

 

 

20 mins later

 

 

Go guage in place, ready for action

 

 

Action with about .080" to go on the chamber

 

 

The completed job, prior to polishing, flash shows up grease and cutting fluid on the cone face - the surface is bob on.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Spent about an afternoon on getting the barrel to this stage.

 

Next is polish of chamber, spin barrel around and thread for a mod, plus crown.

 

 

Maybe post more later in the week.

[Guest dasherman]

Andy - is your 6 jaw on an adjustable backplate or is it a "griptrue" type of chuck to allow you to adjust barrels that dont have the bore perfectly central? Only asking as I use a spider both ends and seeing 6 jaw set ups on the US forums have wondered how they are adjusted [they cost a fortune anyway for a decent one!]

[baldie]

Yep, i,d like to know that one too. Even pratt burnerd dont make an indipendant 6 jaw ? i enquired about a self centering 6 jaw, a few months since....it was £1600 + vat.

[col48]

All so do you use your finish reamer to take out all the chamber? or do you pre drill/use a ruffing reamer??

just asking,not picking

 

ATB

Colin

[Ronin]

Gents

 

 

Yup its a Bison 6 jaw set tru, spendy, but worth it, once the jaws are locked you can move the whole lot about .005" in North / South - East - west orientation via allen key sockets independant of vice jaws.

 

Believe me, this chuck is worth its weight - but if you do short barrels you also need a inboard spider chuck (as you will know)

 

Here is a link to my chuck ; http://www.penntoolco.com/catalog/products...?categoryID=115

 

Neil, Dave, these are very, very good chucks and would make excellent additions to your own set ups. I also have a decent 4 jaw, but it gets used rarely unless I am bluprinting with an action jig.

 

 

Reaming - Colin I only use finish reamer and have a pressureised flush system set up - no or little wear on reamer. Even when doing a large chamber like a WSM or a 338 Lap Mag, I only use the finish reamer - ive tried the step drill method and boring bar methods and am not convinced those methods are for me. At least I know the reamer is following the exact path of the bore leaving little or no margin for error.

 

I have a contact in the states who uses this method, some of his reamers are on their 50th barrel before they require retouching.

 

Besides that mate - reamers are like barrels - expendable!

[Vermincinerator]

So what you are saying Andy is that your 6 jaw chuck can be moved on the backplate by about .005"?

what happens when you have a barrel that has more run out then your chuck will adjust?

There is no substitute for a good 4 jaw chuck, to me a 6 jaw is a hugely expensive luxury that is not as versatile as a 4 jaw and no better then a 3 jaw.

 

Ian.

[Ronin]

The 6 jaw has enough ajustment to handle any barrel I have had in it so far - even factory barrels that have been in there for screw cutting there has been plenty of ajustment to get centred. (some of these, the bore has been so far out of true one can see without the need to measure!)

 

I think there is .005" in any direction from centre (so a total of .010") I cannot find any literature to back this up - it may possibly be more.

 

 

When ive completed the work on the barrel thats in it at the moment, I'll set up a test bar to run tru and then measure how much ajustment there actualy is.

 

Agreed it is no real replacement for a 4 jaws overall versatility, but it certainly makes setting up barrels a whole lot easier (for a numpty like me anyway )

 

Lets not forget that were talking about equipment specifically for one task (rifle barrels) rather than something that is suitable for most workpieces, but never really used fully...

 

I think the 6 jaws were made for holding precision collets and repeat production of precision items - so not that far removed from a quality barrel

[Vermincinerator]

Andy,

i dont think you can apply a 6 jaw chuck primarily for rifle barrel work, like all lathe chucks they are designed for work holding.

In all my years in engineering i had only ever seen a 6 jaw chuck on a CNC C/lathe with pneumatic closure.

 

In manual situations i have always got by with 4 jaw, 3 jaw and for super accurate repeatability of components under 1.250" a precision Crawford collet chuck and collets, which i also have at home.

Once set the collet chuck will repeat to zero runout every time.

 

For super accurate location in a 3 jaw chuck it was a simple change to soft jaws which would be bored out to the same diametre as the component to be turned and when tightened on the same point each time would also repeat with zero run out.

 

There isnt really any need for 6 jaw chucks in engineering, maybe thats why they are so seldom seen in the industry.

 

Ian.

[Ronin]

Hi Ian

 

 

the 6 jaw works for me, I replied to questions from Dasherman and Baldie about it, and ive seen it used by several noted smiths in america from their posts on other sites and some over here.

 

Its included in the pics not as a "look what ive got" but in answer to questions on how little equipment is needed to do your own work.

 

Glad I bought it "as a package" with all my gear as opposed to a solo purchase, it has been invaluable to me anyway.

 

I use a 4 jaw spider, 4 jaw and sometimes but rarely a 3 jaw too.

 

With your experience of engineering, I realise you see this as a tool with limited use, I have to say that this chuck is used most of the three others I have with the inboard spider being the second most frequently used (for shorter barrels)

 

To re-iterate, had the 6 jaw not been in with the job lot of equipment I bought, I dont think I would have gone out and bought one, but having used my own for some time now, it certainly is extremely useful to me and the barrels that are placed in it rarely, if ever exceed .0002" run out once I have ajusted the outboard and inboard sides to run true before I start machining.

 

I find ajusting it simple, just the same as a 4 jaw in fact but with obviously less movement.

[ejg223]

Hi Ian

 

 

the 6 jaw works for me, I replied to questions from Dasherman and Baldie about it, and ive seen it used by several noted smiths in america from their posts on other sites and some over here.

 

Its included in the pics not as a "look what ive got" but in answer to questions on how little equipment is needed to do your own work.

 

Glad I bought it "as a package" with all my gear as opposed to a solo purchase, it has been invaluable to me anyway.

 

I use a 4 jaw spider, 4 jaw and sometimes but rarely a 3 jaw too.

 

With your experience of engineering, I realise you see this as a tool with limited use, I have to say that this chuck is used most of the three others I have with the inboard spider being the second most frequently used (for shorter barrels)

 

To re-iterate, had the 6 jaw not been in with the job lot of equipment I bought, I dont think I would have gone out and bought one, but having used my own for some time now, it certainly is extremely useful to me and the barrels that are placed in it rarely, if ever exceed .0002" run out once I have ajusted the outboard and inboard sides to run true before I start machining.

 

I find ajusting it simple, just the same as a 4 jaw in fact but with obviously less movement.

 

Andy, and I thought you would adjust it spot on.?

edi

[Vermincinerator]

Andy,

if it works for you and gives you the results you require then thats fine by me.

The chuck that is usually on the spindle of my lathe is the Crawford collet unit, which made my eyes light up when the guy i bought the lathe off said he would throw it in with the 4 jaw and 3 jaw.

A set of 24 collets sourced off ebay for £45 was another bonus.

Its very similar to the hardinge 5C collets and chucks but british made.

I think you would find a collet chuck more of a joy to use then your 6 jaw.

Genuine 5c chucks and collets are massively expansive but the chinese made copies will suffice although the collets tend to use there temper and springiness after a few years.

 

Ian