Most stable bullet through Transonic in .308?

[MrCetrizine]

I think this is my favourite...

 

Cold bore single shot at 1000yds from a factory Tikka .223

 

When I was in Kentucky in April there were guys and girls on the range doing the milk jug challenge at 1000yds. Many of them nailing it on the first shot. There was even a guy trying it with a .22lr and getting quite close.

 

It's amazing to see the effortless skills of people who've never really shot in a competition but have spent most of their life shooting guns for fun.

 

With a borrowed Falkor Petra in .300 Win Mag, I got it on the 7th shot which was elating as I rarely get to shoot beyond 600m round here.

[gbal]

TJC : You say it all yourself "These guys are good shots and they usually miss".

 

That is what 'the critics' are saying-not that such a shot is never made-much more that it is a low probability.

Here's a scenario: 1000y cold sighter shot at clay pigeon in the backstop. First shot hit. Then 5 competition shots in 5 inches,but not centered. Then a bit later 5 shots in 10 inches-not centered.

 

So what is to conclude-shooter can hit a 1000y clay? or shootter can shoot 1 moa groups somewhere ,but not usually centered on a target?

 

Well,how about "This is quite a good shooter but usually misses,at 100y unless he gets sighter feedback and walks in shots,then sometimes he might make a hit,but around 10%."

 

Check out Litz "WEZ" type analyses-the above is pretty close to that analysis,and in general to the laws of dispersal of shot,as per the laws of physics and precision limits of the rig being shot.Overlaid by a further human factor".

 

And yes,I am pretty sure at lweast one "critic" shoots at up to 1000y regularly (50+ shots usually).

Note too "critical" comment includes positive,where merited.

BUt you also need to consider the difference between say a sprinter setting a new world record once (he did it,not luck and repetition isn't neccessary,though other close times are usual!) and a scenario which is a wind assisted time-as was done -beating the record,downhill with a huge industrial fan behind....there are plenty other similar scenarios-consistency is the key,not an isolated one off....

 

"the wind sometimes blows a shot in ,as well as out"....and on a one off hit,how do we know?

 

Bottom line : One offs in the context of multiple surrounding failures tend not to impress,in any activity where the hit could be down to luck. Skilled performance indicating underlying competence worthy of recognition will have a much higher success rate,though it need not be perfect,in a demanding scenario.

Amateurs do it until they get a lucky hit;professionals do it until they only occasionally get an unlucky miss.

 

These differences are generally recognised and acknowledged by those with serious experience,but if you wnat to see 1/25 as success,don't expect to win any skeet shooting competitions. 25/25 will getyou into the shoot offs ,every time.

 

"An opinion without evidence,is like froth without beer",but "cheers!" anyhow

 

gbal

[gbal]

MrC, I don't doubt you experience at all.

The 22 lr does what it says on the tin

"Dangerous within a mile",but is understandably uncommitted as to what might be in danger-it can go that far,but predicting exactly just is not possible,nor is it very consistent shot to shot.

Long Range shooters are perfectly seized of this fact,which is why they chose other cartridges.

 

As you of course know,but it stands saying,in this context.

A hit would be an unlikely fluke,but is a possibility.

A ford anglia might win an F1 grand prix,if allowed to enter,but all the other cars would have to be non finishers....

.... so what can we conclude from this true statement?

 

gbal

[TJC]

You are missing the point - you get 1 chance to succeed in the challenge. 1,000 yards used to be considered extreme long range and that's no longer the case. Loads of people are connecting at 1,000, it is no longer the preserve of the Benchrest crowd. I'm familiar with WEZ. It's a useful tool but that's all it is. We can probably count on one hand the number of people in the UK who have shot a short action out to a mile (hopefully it is more but probably not many more).

 

Criticise and dismiss the success as lucky or low probability if it makes you feel better. The truth is there are guys out there doing this every weekend and travelling from around the US and even the world to have a go. Obviously, it isn't easy - we know that but let's applaud them. Go look at the King of 2 Miles this year....how many made the shot. It's really hard but that doesn't make their eventual success always luck. If you can hit a jug at a mile with any caliber you have my respect. It's that simple.

[MrCetrizine]

What I took from it is that just because someone doesn't shoot F Class or some form of hyper accurate long range benchrest competition, it doesn't mean they couldn't.

 

There were people there just walking up to the firing point, taking a few seconds to settle in then drilling the jug like it was their job.

I asked a few if they shot competitions or for a living and except one who claimed to have been a former Marine sniper, they were just average people who shot for fun.

 

The thing about shooting a jug at 1000 yards or a mile is that people of all abilities will general give it a go with differing success.

If you ask the same people to enter an F Class competition, the take-up would be much lower.

 

I've not been shooting that long but I think I'm now just a step above absolute beginner. I've had some success in club competitions. If, however, you asked me to go to Diggle or Bisley and enter an F Class or benchrest competition, I wouldn't as they seem to be a very unwelcoming prospect. I know shooters who have years of experience who also feel the same.

 

I don't think these jug shots can be dismissed as luck simply because the people doing it weren't at the last F Class world championships.

[Swarovski1]

I love all the critics on here citing warm up shots, walking it in with good spotters and citing altitude, internal adjustment limitations etc....you aren't keeping up with the times. The truth is these guys have strict rules and if you want to get out from your mum's basement you can go out there and try it for yourself. Only 12 people have so far achieved the 1-mile challenge at LRSU (yes it's called Long Range Shooters Utah for a reason). These guys are pushing the boundaries, they should be applauded. We don't have many places in this country to shoot out to a mile and that's probably the single biggest constraint we have - that and internet commandos saying it can't be done. I'm in the US next month shooting with some of these guys. They are good shooters who are prepared to try and usually fail but when they achieve something don't criticise them unless you've tried it yourself. If you haven't and are looking for excuses keep citing ballistics and warm-up shots. You are getting left behind - long range shooting has progressed more in the last decade than it has in the last half century.

Oh and watching this 11-yr old do it on the first shot will really annoy the cynics !https://youtu.be/E7XeucaeaR0

I've shot at a mile with a 338 lap mag.i am not critisising.shots can easily be walked onto the target.cold bore shot on a milk jug at a mile can be done but more likely to be a miss.close miss.dont always believe what you hear or see on youtube.ive gotta 338 lap mag on my ticket but I doubt very much I will get one now.

[VarmLR]

I'm sorry that this thread has proved so divisive! For what it's worth, I think there's room for compromised thinking. To achieve such things every time with the physics involved is subject to the constraints of that physics and the probabilities derived thereof. However, I have no doubt that these US LR shooters are very practised, very skillful and very accomplished and I'd love the opportunity some day to witness such skill.

 

Back on track, is there anyone who can provide some feedback, especially on the 168 TMK wrt velocities, comparisons with the 175 HPBT and stability as velocity drops off? I only have experience to 450 yds for the 69gr .224 TMK which seems remarkably consistent and very accurate at least in my rifle at those distances.

[Andrew]

I've shot at a mile with a 338 lap mag.i am not critisising.shots can easily be walked onto the target.cold bore shot on a milk jug at a mile can be done but more likely to be a miss.close miss.dont always believe what you hear or see on youtube.ive gotta 338 lap mag on my ticket but I doubt very much I will get one now.

All this is talk about not getting a first round hit at whatever distance seems to be predicated on the idea that the shooter has not done this kind of shooting before, or doesn't do it routinely and has just whipped up a demo for the camera. I don't think this is the case most of the time. Some of these guys are pretty dedicated long range shooters who practice quite a bit. ~Andrew.

[Andrew]

I've shot at a mile with a 338 lap mag.i am not critisising.shots can easily be walked onto the target.cold bore shot on a milk jug at a mile can be done but more likely to be a miss.close miss.dont always believe what you hear or see on youtube.ive gotta 338 lap mag on my ticket but I doubt very much I will get one now.

All this is talk about not getting a first round hit at whatever distance seems to be predicated on the idea that the shooter has not done this kind of shooting before, or doesn't do it routinely and has just whipped up a demo for the camera. I don't think this is the case most of the time. Some of these guys are pretty dedicated long range shooters who practice

 

I'm sorry that this thread has proved so divisive! For what it's worth, I think there's room for compromised thinking. To achieve such things every time with the physics involved is subject to the constraints of that physics and the probabilities derived thereof. However, I have no doubt that these US LR shooters are very practised, very skillful and very accomplished and I'd love the opportunity some day to witness such skill.

 

Back on track, is there anyone who can provide some feedback, especially on the 168 TMK wrt velocities, comparisons with the 175 HPBT and stability as velocity drops off? I only have experience to 450 yds for the 69gr .224 TMK which seems remarkably consistent and very accurate at least in my rifle at those distances.

I shoot 168's out to 1000 but shoot at 3200 ft above sea level in an area with very little (generally) humidity. I think I calculated that my loads go trans sonic just past 1000. The one time I was inclined to shoot past 1000, I was spotting for a friend who was shooting his Creedmoor at a mile and it used up a bit of the rest of the shooting light.

 

Funny you should mention the 69 grain .223. This same friend and I were shooting a 18x24 plate at 850 yards with ours a few weeks back. It was silly fun because it was one of those rare days when the wind was almost nil and all we had to worry about was the massive amounts of elevation needed for those 69 grainers. When I got on the plate i managed about a 5 inch group.

 

The last time we shot in that pasture, the winds were 27 to 34 mph! Making a consecutive hits on that plate under those conditions was tough. I used my 308-168 load, my buddy used his 142 Sierra Creedmoor load. He managed 9 consecutive hits out of 10 shots at that distance. I went 5 for 10.~Andrew

[VarmLR]

Thanks Andrew, that's fascinating insight! Do you have any idea how stable the 168 grainers might be when going through transonic? I can get some pretty decent velocities from my .223 with the 69gr, close on 2900fps without pressure signs but the load developed for general target and fun shooting is a little less at an average 2850fps. From my 450 practice, I probably wouldn't shoot them much past 600 unless conditions were very favourable!

[gbal]

Another wet am,so let's progress this LR thing a bit more.

 

Andrew,good empirical sense as usual-it can be done,in benign conditons,and some practice/sighters etc.YOu tube seldom shows the whole story-how much zeroing etc might have already been done....the honest ones do-and give the hit/miss ratios...

 

Varm,nice attemp to mediate-there is already some compromised thinking,but I'm all for some compromise and conciliation.Let me say that I don't shoot competiton Fclass,but have respect and admiration for the consistent shooters who do LR well-and try regularly to emulate thembut see below too for the other sort....The same goes for genuine LR shooters...details below...

 

Swaro,agreed-though I would not say it's easyif every aspect is included ( the rig that improves the odds way above 22rf is also pricey,but £/$ are not in themselves sufficient -they buy precision,but not accuracy (that's human skill-the actual physical shooting skill isn't demandinf with a secure rest,but the shooting solution input -clicks simply-very much is the crucial skill..see below...)

 

MrC, were these shooters turning up with 'old Betsy' or their usual plinking/club rig-most such would struggle to have enough elevaon etc....let alone knowledfge-unless they have done the math (no 's' theyre american) and have practiced. If it's rig set up by a good shot,and they "just" fire it,then most of the credit goes to the set up man....

 

TJC, several things are being missed-mainly milk jugs- but plenty questions are being begged too-inserting an "IF" makes rather a large difference to an arguement,and you consistently concede only a few have the skill,and even then it's intermittent,shot to shot-which is precisely my point-plenty more try,but essentially fail...they don't get you tube videos.As you have enjoyed the comfort of opinion without evidence (:-) ... no offence,but now it's time to do just what you suggest....let's just have a look at the King of Two Miles comp this year....

 

King of Two MIles- I think this was won by the Applied Ballistics team (Bryan Litz' outfit).Let me be clear-Bryan LItz is the best ballistic expert/writer around and a very very fine LR shooter-I can thinkof no-one I admire more on any such criteria. He cam second,with team mate Michael Firtzpatrick winning....and MF had this to say " we had the best ballistic solutions possible due to the one and only Bryan Litz. The team wind coach Paul Phillips is a world class wind coach and made the wind calls" I'd imagine that ex US army coach Praslick had some input too.....AB is quite an outfit,and the latest Berger Bullets can't but help.

Equipment was 'state of the art/rather engineering precision'-you can check PP's rather radical rig and BL's 338 Edge at your leisure.....but summary added below (very end...hang on in)!

OK so where did the shots go- the distances are 1454,1556,1724,2011 yards 2477 ( 1 mile is 1760 y) on the first two days....

All three AB team shooters had some hits at 2011,two of the rthree had first shot hits at 2477.

Bryan Litz had 4/5 hits at 1454,but then only 1/3 at the next 1556-only a hundred yards further(see his comments and learn complexity) and 0/3 at 2011 (threemisses is out). Remember he places second overall.

 

Looking at the recorded results,after these two days the top 20 shooters had about 50% hits,and so about 50 % misses-I have not counted,and the pattern is clear-hits reduce rather clearly with distance,and position in the competition.....

 

NO competitor hit the Two Mile target.

 

Interestingly,Bryan Litz has also this week given his scores in his first 'Precision'shooting comp,comprising 'awkward shots' at ranges out to about 1000y,under time pressures and cold barrel-he is again second,as I recall,but there are misses too(everyone misses sometimes). These indicate what the very best can do,with optimum rigs-AND outstanding wind coaching,as in the Two Mile event.

 

Long Range shooting would seem to be getting better-the precision component (rifle,ammo,scope) is improving;the perhaps more critical wind reading skill likewise-and especially under expert coaching conditions-with the best shooters around.

 

Even so,it's by no means a 'given', on any shot,so we should bear that in mind.

 

There are some balanced you tubes too-(nutnfancy?) I rather liked the one where shooters floundering around on a snow covered range (couldn't see bullet splash)-good luck with those conditions with the 22rf at 1000y :-)

 

SO,surely we can have a more balanced consensus.

 

Here are a couple of UK items,too....

Young Emily Lenton turns in some exemplary 1000y BR Heavy Gun wins it probably does no harm to have two generations of Lenton family genes,and even more so,similarly outstanding experience and shooting skill from father and grandfather.BUt the wind offers no concessions to age,at either end.

 

Ther is also the Diggle Fly shoot at 500y-many enter,a few actually hit the fly.Some do it more than once.They merit respect accordingly. For some it is less so-make up your own mind from these two reality based scenarios:

Shooter one shoots three 5 shot groups of sub three inches,one just to the left of fly,one to the right,and one above-but no actual hits.

Shooter two shoots the same standard sets- 5 shots each,thrice. He hits the fly once,but there are no other shots on the target.I'll even concede he hit the fly in the head. He gets the "coveted" fly patch for the hit.

Who comes out of this with serious rspect as a 500y shooter? That is probability/skill being deployed,and 'fluke' respectively.

 

OK,I hope everyone can take something from all this,and focus on the underlying competences that varied performance indicates.

IF you are easily self pleased,get a good fclass/BR shooter to set up his rig on the rests and sight it in on a gong,with a couple of confirming shots for actual wind etc.

You should be able to make a hit by simply firing the rifle by pinching the 2oz trigger/back of trigger guard with your finger/thumb(not even prefered hand) and no other contact with the rig.Thank the skill guy who really did the hard bits.

Get it on video,and put it you know where.

Show your kids/mates.

Hero.

 

atb,and good shooting-it's a hobby to be enjoyed (and discussed)

 

I'm off to the reloading room,to polish my Tenex rounds for the next 1000y comp,before the snow comes. :-)

 

..and Paul's rig gets popular-it's a massive BAT action and Bartlein 38 inch barrel-together they weigh 35lbs;

the cartridge is 375 Lethal Magnum, a modified 585 Hubel Express,for a Cheytac boltface,giving the 1.09 BC Berger prototype bullets 3200fps.

The scope isn't specified,but the original Hubel is still operational,so isn't that one..... :-)

 

gbal

[VarmLR]

...and all that I initially asked were recommendations for a stable bullet through transonic .

 

Some good points made there George, and I didn't mean to trivialise the detail with my brief attempt at smoothing the waters, but don't have your experience of LR to offer anything practical over what you've already discussed in your posts. It's all a learning journey and one which I suspect never ends but reaches a point sufficient for means depending on how far one wishes to take it.

 

OK, I think I have a shortlist and no-one seems to have a lot to offer on the 168TMK, so perhaps it's a case of develop a few loads based on the 175 SMK and 168 TMK and see which fares best. This has probably run its course, but judging from the opinions and debate on LR shooting, fun or otherwise, perhaps that merits a thread all of its own (?) as I'd like to come back to this particular one after I've had a chance to put some new loads to the test in a month or so.

[Brillo]

Don't rule out the new 168 TMK. The results I had with it so far are much better than the older bullet. It is, after all, a completely different design. So, fir me the jury is still out on its stability through transonic.

[gbal]

...and all that I initially asked were recommendations for a stable bullet through transonic .

 

Some good points made there George, and I didn't mean to trivialise the detail with my brief attempt at smoothing the waters, but don't have your experience of LR to offer anything practical over what you've already discussed in your posts. It's all a learning journey and one which I suspect never ends but reaches a point sufficient for means depending on how far one wishes to take it.

 

OK, I think I have a shortlist and no-one seems to have a lot to offer on the 168TMK, so perhaps it's a case of develop a few loads based on the 175 SMK and 168 TMK and see which fares best. This has probably run its course, but judging from the opinions and debate on LR shooting, fun or otherwise, perhaps that merits a thread all of its own (?) as I'd like to come back to this particular one after I've had a chance to put some new loads to the test in a month or so.

 

Mea culpa

You're right

The tangential topic of LR is of course quite relevant,but needs a new dedicated thread.

Perhaps "true tube" ?

But that's for some future "too cold and wet to shoot 2 miles accurately " day.

 

As a student,I was impressed by a very top flight US psychology academic who gave a 1 hour lecture on "The universe -and other things."

... pre Hubel of course,but still.... cut through a lot of Babel :-)

 

gbabel

[Andrew]

Thanks Andrew, that's fascinating insight! Do you have any idea how stable the 168 grainers might be when going through transonic? I can get some pretty decent velocities from my .223 with the 69gr, close on 2900fps without pressure signs but the load developed for general target and fun shooting is a little less at an average 2850fps. From my 450 practice, I probably wouldn't shoot them much past 600 unless conditions were very favourable!

There are some day when, even at my altitude, the 168's are a waste of time past 800 yards. When they go bad, they go very bad, it seems, with no 'recovery' on the subsonic side of the shift as do some of the 175's I've been hearing about. It's just hard to generalize stability which is why the good shooters will run a high dollar Kestrel weather unit through their ballistic app on site. Within a minute or two they can tell where the transsonic shift will be and how their load will fit (or not) into the equation. I really invested heavily into the 168's but a very good PRS shooter warns me that in Montana i can get away with shooting my 168 load, but if i visited him close to sea level I'd have a hard time keeping it on target. He advised going to 175 MK/TMK if i wanted an all around bullet. I think he was right. I am playing with 190 grain right now because the Nosler Custom Comp's are ridiculously cheap ($18.90 per 100 US) and I have plenty of elevation still left in my scope. I have yet to lob them at steel.

 

I should again fess up that I am a good/competent shot, but not someone who is well versed at shooting past 500 yards as a rule. I shoot CF rifle several times a week, and have for many years, but the long range stuff is relatively new to me. I am lucky in that I have a couple of friends who are very good at it and shoot top-notch gear. I don't even have a range finder, preferring to manually gauge distance using my reticle. In this sense, I am not a "serious" long range shooter. The most fun I have is with the 300AAC out to 500 yards and this makes an earlier point: I could take someone out and set up a 9inch x13inch plate at 350 yards, consult my notes, make the adjustments on the scope, and most likely have them drop a first round hit on it with my 300AAC if they do their part. It is a weapon/cartridge for which I have had extensive practice and experience pushing its limits. I have kept concise notes. While 350 yards doesn't sound like far, it is with a Blackout's rather fish-hook trajectory. I and the people I shoot with, are blessed with a vast amount of open country and a pile of AR500 steel targets to set up as far or as close as we wish. Heavy winds and rain are considered a learning experience and we all try to keep pretty good DOPE. (Imperative with the 300AAC) We shoot a lot so when we watch that Utah shooting club's milk jug shoot and the guy hits the milk jug at 1000 with less them 10 rounds in a cross wind, it doesn't seem too far fetched to us.

 

As to the 223. Yes. It does take some decent conditions to make the longer shots. Summer winds over a prairiedog down will get you tuned to your rifle pretty fast. I have a buddy that comes out for a week/10 days every summer who shoots prariedogs out to 450 with absolutely stock Tikka T-3 Lite 1-10" twist using 50 grain V-Max off of cross sticks while sitting in a folding chair. I am running those 69 grainers about the same as you are. Accurate as hell. ~Andrew

[VarmLR]

Thanks Andrew. It seems that it's down to extracting decent velocities if using the 168 in that case. I can get the Nostler Custom Comps here but they're close to £46/100! The SMK190s are cheaper (from about £40/100). Not so sure about N140 with those. If I'm resigned to the heavier bullet, then I'll probably use N150 rather than go the double base powder route.

 

I may still try a pack of 168's though as I may get enough velocity from them.

[GeorgeB]

If you want to try the SMK 190s, I have about 34 left over from a batch which you are welcome to for the cost of the postage.

[VarmLR]

Thnaks George

 

that's really very generous of you

[Andrew]

Last night I ran a small trial of Nosler Custom Competitions. I initially tried a load recommended to me of 41.5 grains of IMR4064 and the bolt lift was stiff on my Ruger RPR. I backed that down to Sierra's recommended accuracy load of 40.5 grains and was shooting ragged holes at 100 in fading light. I also tried some RL 17 @ 43 grains and truly -near darkness factored in- the accuracy was about the same. My chronograph was in the back of my Jeep sitting at repair shop in town so I couldn't even attempt a chrono reading but I can guess that these were s-l-o-w. I know that i have very little room left with 4064 but RL 17 seems to have some space left for load development.~Andrew