Bullet recommendations for 1000 yd target

[VarmLR]

I've been invited to shoot 1000yd target at Bisley and was going to take two rifles with me, being a .223 and a .308.

 

Currently, I shoot 69g TMKs in the (26 inch, 1/8) 223 but realise that if I'm to stretch it to 1000, I'll probably need to develop a load for 77gr.

 

With the .308, I currently shoot 155 SMKs and 150 SGKs, and whilst I know that the 155 can be pushed to 1000, I suspect my 24 inch (1/11) barrel isn't the most suitable to get it there with any accuracy.

 

I currently use N140 for both cals and if possible, don't want to change powders unless I have to.

 

Is there a bullet recommendation anyone can give where they've tried 1000 yds using a similar set up/barrel lengths?

 

I'm currently thinking either 77gr TMK (#7177) or 7gr HPBT (#9377) for the .223 and perhaps either sticking with the 155SMK (#2156) and driving them faster by upping the load or going to a 190gr SMK.

 

Any advice welcome.

[bradders]

Regarding the .223, 77's in both 9377 and 7177 TMK will work and get there, you'd be better off with the TMK as it will use less elevation and wind.

However, neither are a match for a good VLD such as a 75 or 80 from Berger or JLK

 

I have all 4 types available

[20series]

For the 308 try 175 grain sierra matchkings

[VarmLR]

Thanks chaps. I'll have a look at the VLDs and the 175 SMKs and check N140 compatibility then. Forgive my ignorance Bradders, but have you a website link?

[Morse]

I use the 155gr SMK and 46gr N140 and that gets me there OK but my barrel is a bit longer (26"). You could try 168gr SMK's and N140 which should work also. Lot of options but you potentially compromise yourself with N140 in relation to bullet choice however it is an excellent powder. I don't have enough experience on loading for .223 to help you on the second part of the question tho. Good luck and enjoy Bisley!!

[VarmLR]

I use the 155gr SMK and 46gr N140 and that gets me there OK but my barrel is a bit longer (26"). You could try 168gr SMK's and N140 which should work also. Lot of options but you potentially compromise yourself with N140 in relation to bullet choice however it is an excellent powder. I don't have enough experience on loading for .223 to help you on the second part of the question tho. Good luck and enjoy Bisley!!

 

 

I developed pressure signs (perhaps somewhat unusual/unfortunate?) using 44.5 grains N140 but it was during the warmer weather. May up the load again and see what transpires. I'd probably lose about 50fps with a two inch shorter barrel (something like that) but if I got 2800 fps from 44.5gr (estimate based on velocity measured at 43.1gr) and plug the figures into the Litz calculator, it does indeed look as though I can get there providing I use the Palma Match King (#2156) thanks to a G1 BC of .504.

 

May just give that one a go. Looks like I'll need a scope that can give me about 26 moa elevation as long as it has something like an moa hash ret for holdover to get the last few moa (no need for a 20moa rail or rings that way). Thanks Morse, useful nudge in a sensible direction, and should work well with N140.

[bewsh]

I use the 155gr SMK and 46gr N140 and that gets me there OK but my barrel is a bit longer (26"). You could try 168gr SMK's and N140 which should work also. Lot of options but you potentially compromise yourself with N140 in relation to bullet choice however it is an excellent powder. I don't have enough experience on loading for .223 to help you on the second part of the question tho. Good luck and enjoy Bisley!!

 

thats a punchy load. what MV are you getting?

I struggle to get past 44.5-45gr in either the 28 or 29" barrelled rifles

 

The 168's were very accurate in my longer rifle but I thought they were meant to be very poor out past 600 or so

something to do with the different boat tail angle if I recall.

[VarmLR]

I use the 155gr SMK and 46gr N140 and that gets me there OK but my barrel is a bit longer (26"). You could try 168gr SMK's and N140 which should work also. Lot of options but you potentially compromise yourself with N140 in relation to bullet choice however it is an excellent powder. I don't have enough experience on loading for .223 to help you on the second part of the question tho. Good luck and enjoy Bisley!!

 

 

I may just re-try the 155smk/N140 at a higher loading Morse.

 

As with Bewsh, last time I tried a 44.5gr load I got very obvious pressure signs, although I didn't have to resort to a mallet to lift the bolt!

 

A few people have told me the 155 is the bullet that they use. I can't mag-feed the Palma and get close enough to the lands (by all accounts it's not the most jump friendly?) so will stick with the standard SMK 155HPBT, and see where the pressure signs start occurring. I need about another 100fps than I'm getting at 43.1gr of 140 to get me there. Don't know what QL might suggest with a 1/11 barrel if 43.1 is 2650fps, but I'd settle for 2750fps or above with the 155 bullet.

 

I think I'll forget the .223. On reflection, whilst a 77gr might get me there, in wind, I can forget it really. 90gr maybe, but not with my 1/8 twist.

[Morse]

Yes I agree its a hot load but it was worked up very slowly and I am happy working with smaller margins, there are a few others on UKV who use the same load. We all use AI rifles and I know they are well built and the results are very consistent across the guns. In terms on MV I am getting 2747fps last time I chrono'd but that was back in spring. There are no adverse pressure signs on the brass and I am on the 7/8th reloading of the brass now and its still looking good but will bin it before I get to 10 just to be safe. I only FL every 1:4 firings the rest new size and I only use the SMK Palma 155's which I buy in batches of 500. Start off with small increments, and watch for pressure signs, keep a good notebook so you can replicate / avoid as required. Good luck.

 

You may need a canted rail / scope mount to get sufficient adjustment for your 1000yds shot. Not sure what your setup is but you might want to check that out before you land at Bisley and speak to someone who has more knowledge than I on optics.... I seem to recall a few years ago reading about not wanting to be shooting with your scope adjusted to the limits of its adjustments.... If I can find the link / source I will add it on here but last thing I would want is for you to have a less than good day out on the range.

[VarmLR]

Yes I agree its a hot load but it was worked up very slowly and I am happy working with smaller margins, there are a few others on UKV who use the same load. We all use AI rifles and I know they are well built and the results are very consistent across the guns. In terms on MV I am getting 2747fps last time I chrono'd but that was back in spring. There are no adverse pressure signs on the brass and I am on the 7/8th reloading of the brass now and its still looking good but will bin it before I get to 10 just to be safe. I only FL every 1:4 firings the rest new size and I only use the SMK Palma 155's which I buy in batches of 500. Start off with small increments, and watch for pressure signs, keep a good notebook so you can replicate / avoid as required. Good luck.

 

You may need a canted rail / scope mount to get sufficient adjustment for your 1000yds shot. Not sure what your setup is but you might want to check that out before you land at Bisley and speak to someone who has more knowledge than I on optics.... I seem to recall a few years ago reading about not wanting to be shooting with your scope adjusted to the limits of its adjustments.... If I can find the link / source I will add it on here but last thing I would want is for you to have a less than good day out on the range.

 

Thanks Morse. Yes, I work up in smallish increments of 0.3 grains or so from 44 grains onwards using a tuned 10-10 scale, using Lapua brass. I'm on my 6th firing now and FL size so it may be prudent to switch to some once/twice fired PPU that I have instead for these loads as the brass will be fresher and less worked.

 

Optics wise it's currently set up for stalking and the scope is not appropriate so I'm having to sort a used or cheap scope that will have enough adjustment. The only cheap scope is the Falcon FFP 4-14 or 4-18 x44 (they have enough adjustment to get out there without additional 20moa rails or rings). That or I look for a used scope of up to 18ish mag. I don't like higher mag scopes for longer distance as mirage on warm days just becomes too much of a nuisance, even to 400 yds. I have a Nightforce on my 223 but want to leave it there rather than mess about with that set up.

[VarmLR]

Had some range time today and took the chrony. No real pressure signs with any of the loads although the 44.4 started to show very slight flattening of primers but I reckon I could safely go to about 44.7 to 45 grains in the temps shot today. However, I don't think it will do any good...have a look at the MVs to see why (N140 and 155 SMK's):

 

Load: MV:

 

43.8 2613fps

44.0 2623fps

44.2 2640fps

44.4 2642fps

 

There seems to be a point between 44.2 and 44.4gr N140 where raising the load is raising pressures without raising velocities. Presumably, in my 24 inch barrel, I'm not getting all the powder efficiently burned for any load much above 44.2, so that seems to be the sweet spot. I can't complain too much about accuracy, as given the wind conditions today (full wind averaging 12mph gusting to 24mph) 200 yard groups were within 1.5 inches. 100 yard were probably half to 3/4 moa on average. Given a still day, it would have been better. Brass hadn't been annealed (3rd firing) and you could tell as the ES was way too high being 20 or 30fps.

 

So, would I be correct in assuming that there's little point in going much over what I've loaded today with N140 in this barrel? I could try some RS52 and see what the equivalent velocities are but I need to use up my 140 stocks first.

 

The velocities above would keep the bullet supersonic (just!) to 1000 yards, so would this be an acceptable 1000 yard load? Obviously more is better but there's no way with my barrel I'll get this bullet above transonic completely. I'll be above mach but probably not much more.

[Laurie]

Had some range time today and took the chrony. No real pressure signs with any of the loads although the 44.4 started to show very slight flattening of primers but I reckon I could safely go to about 44.7 to 45 grains in the temps shot today. However, I don't think it will do any good...have a look at the MVs to see why (N140 and 155 SMK's):

 

Load: MV:

 

43.8 2613fps

44.0 2623fps

44.2 2640fps

44.4 2642fps

 

The velocities above would keep the bullet supersonic (just!) to 1000 yards, so would this be an acceptable 1000 yard load? Obviously more is better but there's no way with my barrel I'll get this bullet above transonic completely. I'll be above mach but probably not much more.

 

 

The responses to that have have to be 'no' and 'maybe' I'm afraid - ie no, you're quite wrong in believing that the 155 SMK will be anywhere near supersonic at 1K at these MVs, and maybe they'll be an acceptable loading. The latter depends on what you're trying to achieve and and also what target you're shooting at. The F-Class target centre has only a quarter of the area of the standard NRA TR etc equivalent, and its frame is only 6-MOA across from side to side, so it's very easy to get blown completely off the smaller frame .... or worse, fail to find it in the first place.

 

FWIW, the Litz generated G7 BCs for the older SMK (#2155) is 0.214 and the newer 'Palma' model (#2156) is 0.229. At your highest MV (2,642 fps) under standard ballistic conditions (sea level altitude at a nominal 29.92 inches mercury pressure; 59-deg F air temp) the 2155 will be doing ~1,020 and 1,060 fps respectively at this distance. (speed of sound 1,126 fps under these conditions) As a matter of interest, the NRA RWS and now GGG produced match ammo is loaded with the older 155 SMK to give a nominal 2,925 fps MV from a 30-inch 'tight' (ie internally undersize) barrel and the Litz Ballistics program shows it right on the speed of sound at 1,000 yards in standard conditions. The old and trusted rule for L-R TR shooters was a 'good 155' at 2,950 fps and it's a sound prescription, but many competitors these days much prefer 3,000-3,025 fps which they get through a mixture of handloading and specifying a 31-inch barrel.

 

When I shot my first year of national league FTR with a 24-inch barrel producing MVs close to those you quote but with the rather higher BC 175gn SMK, they were randomly dipping into and out of supersonic flight at this distance and were so seriously transonic at 900 yards that group size and wind produced dispersions were significantly magnified.

 

So, whether you can use this combination is at least partly down to the target and frame in use on your range outing. The 155gn SMK (the old one anyway; can't comment on the newer model) is a very tolerant design as are some other older Sierra examples and copes well with both trans and subsonic barriers / zones. It also depends on how seriously you're treating this outing and whether it's a precursor to some formal competition or it's 'only' a fun day out.

 

A potentially much larger issue is getting enough elevation to be on the frame at all! You will need 44-45 MOA adjustment available on the scope from a 100 yard zero with this bullet / MV, and as you've noted you really don't want to be using up all your elevation adjustment for several very good reasons. I ran into this problem with a budget but still eminently adequate target scope with my 175SMK beginnings - and that was with a factory rifle that came ready equipped with a Badger Ordnance 20-MOA taper rail. Depending on wind direction and air temperature, I had two or three MOA adjustment in hand or was running with the turret hard on its stop - neither anywhere near desirable.

 

So, what do you do about this (assuming your current scope set-up has 45-MOA + spare adjustment available above your existing 100-yard zero)?

 

You can load hotter. 44.2gn N140 is still an anemic loading with this bullet despite Viht's published maximum.

 

You can use a better bullet - 175gn Berger LRBT; 185gn Berger LRBT Juggernaut; somewhat cheaper, the Sierra 190gn MK. N140 works with the trio but N150 would be considerably better, or at the cost of some barrel wear a 'high-energy' (infused nitroglycerin type) - RS52 and Viht N550.

 

(I used the 190gn SMK + N550 in my 24-inch barrel rifle until I had a 30-inch barrel long-range job built.)

 

Whatever you do, don't use the 168gn or 180gn SMKs - short range bullets which often become unstable in transonic conditions.

 

Don't write your 223 off. I shot a straight-pull AR-15 223 with a 26-inch 1 in 8 barrel with a modified Wylde chamber at all ranges in the early days of F-Class with the 80gn SMK and a relatively mild load likely to give around 2,800 fps. As with the .30/155 SMK, the old 80 is remarkably tolerant of trans and subsonic speed transitions and in a age when the 223 was seen as being 'suitable for 300 yards only' I had great fun with this combination at Diggle which is not exactly a stranger to strong and variable winds. Being the early days, this was on the TR target and huge wide frame - the current F-Class equivalents would produce a lot of sideways misses in any significant wind changes, but I'd usually score ~100-105 in the days when 120 was HPS ('V' counted for 6).

 

Wind aside, the biggest problem was that with the little shot-holes and the bullets subsonic at 1K, the markers constantly missed shots, so matches consisted of regular interruptions getting the RO's attention and shouting 'Message 4 for Target number X' - doesn't do anything for fast shooting while conditions are steady and/or getting any sort of firing line rhythm going. Again though, you need a huge amount of elevation adjustment, and if you ain't got it available, you might as well not bother at all.

[VarmLR]

Thanks Laurie.

 

The terminal velocities I actually got from the Litz software (!) which show 1128fps for 2642 fps and a BC 0f .45. Then again, you only have to change press/humidity a little to get quite a variance. It is the #2155 I'm using by the way. I also note the Brian Litz had quite some success with the old Palma at 2600fps; as you say, it seems to be a very tolerant bullet through the transonic range.

 

I will try upping the load a bit as on reflection, I don't really want to subject the barrel to double base hotter burning powders. It's for a bit of fun really. I've shot plenty, and regularly to 400 yds but never to 1000, so its really just to see how I get on. Non-competition.

 

I chronied the 69TMK today and was achieving about 2820fps using a conservtaive 23.6gr N140 (1/8 twist 26 inch LW custom match barrel). I may try it with an 80gr #9390 and see how I get on.

 

To be honest Laurie, because of the lack of experience of reading wind across 1000 yds, I'd be over the moon if I could put the bullets into a 24 inch square at that distance. Whilst I can, and do regularly post sub moa at 200 in relatively windy conditions, it's a whole different ball game at extended ranges for me. Even at 400, I can only average 1moa in favourable conditions with light winds.

 

I'm up to speed with the .308 168 which as I understand it, was developed mainly for 400 to 600 yd competition, and understand that its not an especially stable bullet out at 1000. The 175 may perform well, but I suspect from my barrel, the 155 with an upped MV may do ok.

 

Scope wise, I should have plenty in hand for elevation without using a rail. The 223 is shod with a Nightforce NSX and the .308 has a 3.5-21 DMR Elite Tactical with 29 Mils overall, and more than sufficient in reserve with a 100 yd zero.

[Laurie]

0.45 is Bryan L's G1 BC for the later (#2156) 155gn SMK. He lists the earlier model as 0.417 G1. G1 BCs are inappropriate for long ranges though. If you rerun them again with Bryan's G7 values, you'll get a much more accurate range card with 'scope 'come-ups' that you can rely on. ........ and the 2155 is subsonic by a full 100 fps at that distance.

 

The two regular problems we have at Diggle at 1,000 with people doing what you have in mind is 1) inappropriate bullets, usually the 168gn SMK, and 2) using G1 BCs in ballistic programs / apps that give them heavily understated 'come-ups'. Shooting low as a result of issue 2) is a real problem as the butts crew can only tell you they're 'not getting there' and fellow shooters are usually unable to see a strike on the mantlet. (If it causes any ricochets, safety concerns arise and the Bisley ROs will quickly stop the unfortunate concerned from further attempts to find the target.)

 

As you've got the 'scope elevation adjustment available, you should be able get on OK with this bullet. Get a partner to 'spot' for you. If you have the elevation anywhere near correct, but you're off the target frame for wind, your partner will see the bullet splash on the sand with any decent spotting or riflescope.

 

Have fun. There are risks though - long range shooting is addictive, and that in turn soon becomes expensive!

[Montey]

Hi as your only doing a fun shoot why not save your self a load ( no pun intended ) of work. Go to the range office and by some RWS 155g they work fine on a TR target at 1000 yards in a 24in 308 Sako a frend of mine shoots on our club days.

Take them to the zero range with a card first and its job done.

I first shot 1000y at Bisly on my second time there I did go out with an NRA instructor and we started at 600y as he said people make it into a big thing its not.just enjoy.

[VarmLR]

0.45 is Bryan L's G1 BC for the later (#2156) 155gn SMK. He lists the earlier model as 0.417 G1. G1 BCs are inappropriate for long ranges though. If you rerun them again with Bryan's G7 values, you'll get a much more accurate range card with 'scope 'come-ups' that you can rely on. ........ and the 2155 is subsonic by a full 100 fps at that distance.

 

The two regular problems we have at Diggle at 1,000 with people doing what you have in mind is 1) inappropriate bullets, usually the 168gn SMK, and 2) using G1 BCs in ballistic programs / apps that give them heavily understated 'come-ups'. Shooting low as a result of issue 2) is a real problem as the butts crew can only tell you they're 'not getting there' and fellow shooters are usually unable to see a strike on the mantlet. (If it causes any ricochets, safety concerns arise and the Bisley ROs will quickly stop the unfortunate concerned from further attempts to find the target.)

 

As you've got the 'scope elevation adjustment available, you should be able get on OK with this bullet. Get a partner to 'spot' for you. If you have the elevation anywhere near correct, but you're off the target frame for wind, your partner will see the bullet splash on the sand with any decent spotting or riflescope.

 

Have fun. There are risks though - long range shooting is addictive, and that in turn soon becomes expensive!

 

Thanks Laurie and some sound advice there. Yes, I had used Sierra's stated G1 for the #2155 and not the Litz G7 and that's certainly a major oversight on my part, so I'll re-do my drop charts based on the G1. I would prefer to use the higher BC Palma but can't get it close enough to the lands (been advised that it's not jump tolerant unlike the #2155) due to mag length limitations, plus the bullet wouldn't be seated deep enough for comfort with my chamber dimensions. The expense has started as the DMR scope was bought for 1000 yds! The learning goes on though and I hope to be as patient with those coming on as others like your good self are being with me.

[VarmLR]

0.45 is Bryan L's G1 BC for the later (#2156) 155gn SMK. He lists the earlier model as 0.417 G1. G1 BCs are inappropriate for long ranges though. If you rerun them again with Bryan's G7 values, you'll get a much more accurate range card with 'scope 'come-ups' that you can rely on. ........ and the 2155 is subsonic by a full 100 fps at that distance.

 

The two regular problems we have at Diggle at 1,000 with people doing what you have in mind is 1) inappropriate bullets, usually the 168gn SMK, and 2) using G1 BCs in ballistic programs / apps that give them heavily understated 'come-ups'. Shooting low as a result of issue 2) is a real problem as the butts crew can only tell you they're 'not getting there' and fellow shooters are usually unable to see a strike on the mantlet. (If it causes any ricochets, safety concerns arise and the Bisley ROs will quickly stop the unfortunate concerned from further attempts to find the target.)

 

As you've got the 'scope elevation adjustment available, you should be able get on OK with this bullet. Get a partner to 'spot' for you. If you have the elevation anywhere near correct, but you're off the target frame for wind, your partner will see the bullet splash on the sand with any decent spotting or riflescope.

 

Have fun. There are risks though - long range shooting is addictive, and that in turn soon becomes expensive!

 

Thanks Laurie and some sound advice there. Yes, I had used Sierra's stated G1 for thre #2155 and not the Litz G7 and that's certainly a major oversight on my part, so I'll re-do my drop charts based on the G1. I would prefer to use the higher BC Palma but can't get it close enough to the lands (been advised that it's not jump tolerant unlike the #2155) due to mag length limitations, plus the bullet wouldn't be seated deep enough for comfort with my chamber dimensions. The expense has started as the DMR scope was bought for 1000 yds! The learning goes on though

 

Hi as your only doing a fun shoot why not save your self a load ( no pun intended ) of work. Go to the range office and by some RWS 155g they work fine on a TR target at 1000 yards in a 24in 308 Sako a frend of mine shoots on our club days.

Take them to the zero range with a card first and its job done.

I first shot 1000y at Bisly on my second time there I did go out with an NRA instructor and we started at 600y as he said people make it into a big thing its not.just enjoy.

 

I may well end up doing that Montey but it's part of the fun too just to see if I can develop a load of my own first. If they don't perform, I have the RWS 155's to fall back on.

and I hope to be as patient with those coming on as others like your good self are being with me.

[tackb]

i was shooting at 900m on Saturday , I was using my 22" pacnor select match barrel (not especially fast) I used 168 hornady tap ammo and 178 hornady superformance match ammo , the tap ammo is launching at 2650fps roughly and whilst it would hold a figure 11 at that range it wasn't especially good and this mirrors my experience of it previously ie its a good 800m round but further becomes an issue , I suspect the 168 amax isn't tolerant of the transonic zone?

 

the superformance match however was just delightful! holding good elevation with only my wind calls letting it down , it's launching at a chrono'd 2750 fps from my 22" tube it's highly unlikely to win an f class match but as I don't f class it really doesn't matter to me , it is however superb factory ammo for long range shooting with a short ish tube !

[Morse]

+1 to good explanation by Laurie. Thank you. Have leant something new there about the 168gr SMK's I don't use them but useful to know!

It would be good to hear how your home loads do Vs the RWS factory if you buy any and what the recipe was etc. I was discussing on Friday about when I re-barrel the .308 I will prob get the HV Profile in 30" just to get the most out of the 155gr Palmas. (Another trip up north to see Baldie) I do like that bullet even tho the 6.5 is proving pretty handy at the moment.

 

Partnered shooting at those distances I would suggest is essential, apart from spotting fall of shot its someone to 'sanity check' corrections / fault find etc to help you get the most out of your day, sometimes its the most obvious of issues that causes poor shooting and with the added pressure of the extra range etc someone to share the experience with may just help.

[VarmLR]

Partnered shooting I think is essential when starting out at longer ranges, as sanity checks are often a requirement! I'm very doubtful that I will achieve anything like supersonic at 1000, no having re-run my data using G7 of .214. It's giving a terminal velocity of about 1027fps, well below the ideal 1200fps I'd like. I strongly suspect that with the powder/barrel combo that I have, with the #2155 I have to rely on its stability through the transonic range (I'm told that the 175 is also quite tolerant and stable when passing through the zone) and instead concentrate on on reading the wind as best I can. No good having a good round and messing up with wind estimation at those distances. I'll see what some practice on shooting technique and wind estimation bring to the party. It wont ever be close to a competitive mix, but should get me on target if I do my bit. To 800 yards is a more realistic proposition for accuracy.