Guest Tiff Posted July 9, 2008 Report Share Posted July 9, 2008 I'm getting bored of 'politely discussing' using a .338 for deer with the police. They seem to have no issues with anything smaller now, just the .338 in any demoniation (even the whisper!) So I thought I might look for a spare barrel in something else, using the .338 lapua case and TRG 42 action/stock as a base. I'll have the .338 barrel for range work, so this spare barrel will only be used for longish range hunting, plus the occasional gong at 2,000+. I've narrowed it down to a 7mm Allen Magnum or 30-338 lapua. I would have a 30-32" barrel in either. The 7mmAM can push a 200 grain wildcat hp uld rbbt bullet (b.c. 0.9+) at 3,200-3,350 leading to some very very good ballistics. However it is extremely over-bored and has an accurate barrel life between 500-700 rounds. Plus you are stuck with one or two bullets to use. Alternatively any of the many .30 cal wildcats have a slightly better accurate barrel life of 100-200 more. And while they produce more energy at the muzzle, suffer long range due to a relatively low B.C. selection of hunting bullets (nothing better than about 0.65-0.75). Although with this larger selection of bullets it can be easier to find a load. So given the options whats should I choose? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronin Posted July 9, 2008 Report Share Posted July 9, 2008 Tiff I had a similar "dilemma" two maybe three years ago and had long exchanges with Kirby about an Allen mag. The upshot was (at the time) Kirby was reluctant to get involved in exporting a finished rifle to me here and again at the time the Allen Mag reamers were not being made for anyone other than Kirby (this may not be the case now) The second problem is that Richard Graves (Wildcat Bullets) delivery times are sometimes erratic at best - ive had an order with him for over two years with no sign of arrival. There were some 200grainers in the order, plus a few other nice bits and pieces that i'm waiting for..... Dont get me wrong now Kirby and Richard make excellent products, if you can get them, There are alternatives, 7mm/338 Lapua, 30/338 Lapua Reamers are all are readily available from PTG, Callum also had a 7mm/338 LM on his chamber list that is very, similar to the Allen Mag. Feed them with heavy for calibre bullets in a fast twsit barrel and you will have something pretty similar. 7mm SMK 175g or .30" SMK 240g could be alternatives to the Wildcats. FWIW I have a 30/338LM on ticket to complement the 338Lap Mag. That would be my own choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Posted July 9, 2008 Report Share Posted July 9, 2008 What the heck kind of deer do you have that requires that kind of killing? Wouldn't the set up you're speaking about be rather unwieldy for hunting? ~Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejg223 Posted July 9, 2008 Report Share Posted July 9, 2008 What the heck kind of deer do you have that requires that kind of killing? Wouldn't the set up you're speaking about be rather unwieldy for hunting? ~Andrew a bit like the need for armour piercing ammo for paper targets edi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronin Posted July 9, 2008 Report Share Posted July 9, 2008 Andrew in my case the 338 and its derivatives are for target work only, not for animals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tiff Posted July 9, 2008 Report Share Posted July 9, 2008 What the heck kind of deer do you have that requires that kind of killing? Wouldn't the set up you're speaking about be rather unwieldy for hunting? ~Andrew Unlike a lot of UK shooters/deer stalkers I'm young, 6'1" and can bench-press more than most people weigh; so a 25+ lbs rig is not much of a problem to carry all day. Plus it is not the kind off rig that you take into the woods to shoot offhand.....more a get into position and wait. I think we will all agree dead is dead, so why is there a problem if my dead deer is 500 yards away from me rather than 50. I know plenty of stalkers that don't practice and can't hit a cheese board at 200 yards, but still try to shoot deer at that distance.....I shoot over 1,000 centerfire rounds a month on the ranges practicing to 1,200+ meters, so whats the problem with me getting a gun that will have enough energy to humanly kill deer at these longer distances. This is not a personal attack in any way, I'm just trying to highlight this silly under culture in British deer stalking that anything over 30-06 should not be used on deer. Ronin I know what you're saying with regards to Richard in Canada, I placed an order back last February and received it 13 months later! The 30-338 would ballisticaly be very similar to my .300 RUM, which while was fun did run out of steam quickly beyond the 1,500 mark if there was much wind and Brecon can have a bit of that....Looking at the 7mm version, the sierra offers an abysmal B.C unfortunately and Berger won't guarantee there bullets to hold up much past 3,100. I've spoken to them over the phone and they say there new thick jacket bullets would hold together, but are not any good for game. So it looks like the .30 cal version for bullet selection, even though there's a relative drop in ballistics. I'm guessing you went down similar lines a year or two ago. Alternatively I might wait it out and order 700 of the 200 grain wildcat bullets and when they arrive in 2009 get a barrel chambered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vermincinerator Posted July 9, 2008 Report Share Posted July 9, 2008 WOAH!! hang on a minute i smell a rat. 1000+ rounds a month and 300 deer a year as well thats a huge amont of shooting by anyones standards, i was only doing 500-600rnds a month when i was shooting pistols!! Me thinks someone has got a severe case of the bull-$hits here. Ian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tiff Posted July 9, 2008 Report Share Posted July 9, 2008 WOAH!! hang on a minute i smell a rat.1000+ rounds a month and 300 deer a year as well thats a huge amont of shooting by anyones standards, i was only doing 500-600rnds a month when i was shooting pistols!! Me thinks someone has got a severe case of the bull-$hits here. Ian. Ah but what your missing is I'm a student on a gap year who is shooting/sea kayaking for a living at the moment. I cover upto 10,000+ acreas (not solely on my own mind...), depending on the time of year. I shoot at sennybridge as often as bookings are available and shoot with a different gun club each weekend. I was joint 1st/2nd in Corwall & Devon at F-Class for 2 years and have the medals and mention in the NRA Journal to prove it! Plus I have access to some very very reasonably priced powder and bullets, making shooting 7.62 half the price of .17HMR! Anyone is more than welcome to come out one day to help me with the shooting, as NorthenChris and others know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Posted July 9, 2008 Report Share Posted July 9, 2008 You must indeed be a big, young, strapping kind of guy if you can muscle a 25 pound rifle around in the wild. I am middle aged, carrying a bit more weight than I should, and not the man I was 25 years ago. I will be hunting mule deer with a revolver this fall. I will be on fairly open ground and need to be within 70 yards for the kill. So much for long range shooting! You reference 1200 yard shooting. You must be one hell of a Shot. Certainly better than I... But I on the other hand, with all my deficiencies, am, at least, a Hunter. I wish you good shooting and humane kills. ~Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vermincinerator Posted July 9, 2008 Report Share Posted July 9, 2008 So you are currently a professional shooter being payed to shoot 1000 rnds a month at targets, as well as 25 deer a month!! got any jobs going? Ian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tiff Posted July 9, 2008 Report Share Posted July 9, 2008 So you are currently a professional shooter being payed to shoot 1000 rnds a month at targets, as well as 25 deer a month!! got any jobs going? Ian. No jobs I'm afraid, but if your down this way your more than welcome to come red/roe stalking one evening. 1,000 7.62X51 rounds only cost me £110 to reload and considering I don't drink or smoke I'd say less than £4 a day is easily affordable for most. I should add I do 'traditional' stalking as well, since some of the land I shoot is thick cornish scrub, but don't find it gives me the same enjoyment these days. I can easily get within 15 yards of most deer in knee high grass, since I don't mind crawling a few 100 yards with a rifle on my back. Personally I don't see the need if I can shoot them without the stalk. Andrew I should add 1,200 yards is hardly a long way these days, last year we were shooting highly competitive F-Class at this distance, with ties in the V's (5" diameter) being used to decide between places at 1,000. The furthest I shoot deer out to is the 500 ish mark since this is the distance I get to practice at most regularly. After all these deer I have yet to miss one or injure any. However I know plenty of people who never practice shooting standing off sticks at the range, yet expect them to work perfectly well when it counts against deer in the field. But people never seem to question them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vermincinerator Posted July 10, 2008 Report Share Posted July 10, 2008 Tiff, Okay buddy i give you the benefit of the doubt since you so readily explained your situation you are indeed a lucky man, although your perceived over confidence in your own ability does give the impression of cockiness but hey-ho weren't we all at one time. I do however applaud your stance on what is a very controversial subject in this country and i am glad to see that you have the knowledge to match the equipment to your challenge. A lot shooters seem to forget that modern medium bore cartridges and rifles will easily kill at 500yds with a well placed shot but for some reason shooting at this distance is deemed unacceptable. Myself and Chris have got together with other shooters for some informal plinking who have never shot passed 200yds. We have had them engaging targets from 350yds out to 730yds with all being able to hit a 4" disk at 530yds, these guys would not have believed it could be done until they had seen it done and then done it themselves!! As a disabled man with walking difficulties my idea of shooting is not far removed from you except i don't have much desire to shoot deer. Nothing would suite me better then setting up my bench in an area where i can engage varmints at ranges out to 500-600yds. I have received some heavy ethical and moral condemnation on other sites and very serious character assassination over my long-range destruction of vermin, so watch out a lot of people are not going to be very happy with what you intend to do. Ian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronin Posted July 10, 2008 Report Share Posted July 10, 2008 Fortuantely, this site is an "ethic free discussion zone" Like the more liberated US sites. Justify what you do to yourself - if you do it with clear concience all the better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vermincinerator Posted July 10, 2008 Report Share Posted July 10, 2008 Correct Andy, And i will be looking forward to Tiff's descriptions of his hunting exploits. Ian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vermincinerator Posted July 10, 2008 Report Share Posted July 10, 2008 Tiff, Have you considered the 330 Dakota, same bore size with more then capable ballistics and without the 338 nomenclature. Ian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronin Posted July 10, 2008 Report Share Posted July 10, 2008 Tiff sorry mate, inadvertantly deleted your last post while trying to cut and paste a whitty reply. In answer to the question 30-338 or 30-338AI You may get 100fps extra, you wil possibly get puffs of grey smoke 100 yards from the muzzle, and you may get a burnt barrel within 700 rounds. But by jeepers it would be a hoot to shoot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vermincinerator Posted July 10, 2008 Report Share Posted July 10, 2008 One of the often overlooked benefits of improved designs is the ability to load top end parent case velocities without the associated high pressures, thus actually extending barrel life. Ian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronin Posted July 10, 2008 Report Share Posted July 10, 2008 Aggree'd Ian as the angle of the case neck causes the burned gases to meet at a point within the neck rather than the throat, however, I still maintain that a 30-338 will have an accuracy life of less than 1000 rounds (not that I am bothered) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
col48 Posted July 10, 2008 Report Share Posted July 10, 2008 Aggree'd Ian as the angle of the case neck causes the burned gases to meet at a point within the neck rather than the throat, however, I still maintain that a 30-338 will have an accuracy life of less than 1000 rounds (not that I am bothered) i believe the Allen magnums have a lot lot less, i believe i read somewhere it was about 800 not a round to go plinking with, but one i would like to have a play with ATB Colin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tiff Posted July 11, 2008 Report Share Posted July 11, 2008 Sounds like the AI version it is then. Barrel life doesn't concern me hugely, since its only for hunting and maybe one low round count regional F-Class shoot a year. I doubt I'd fire more than 5 rounds a week on average so 2-3 years life would be fine. If I put away £1 a day (get £1.50 per rabbit at the butchers), by the time it comes to re-barreling I would be able to cover the cost. Anyone know what the maximum barrel length/diameter a TRG 42 will comfortably support? I don't even know what the thread size is in this action... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronin Posted July 11, 2008 Report Share Posted July 11, 2008 I think the special barrel fitted to the TRG42 in 2005 for the LM105 development was in the region of 30 - 32 inches, it certainly looks about that in photographs. Thread size, not sure, could be one of several as Sako have a history of switching thread size/ pitch. Take off the barrel measure and see when you are ready to re-barrel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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