Say No to Lead Ban

[SWShooter]

Apologies if this has been done .....But this should be signed if you shoot anything from an air rifle upwards ...

 

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/112165

 

[MrCetrizine]

Has a lead ban been proposed?

[SWShooter]

Has a lead ban been proposed?

 

Like a lead shot one you mean?

[MrCetrizine]

I mean has the government tabled a motion to discuss or vote on banning lead projectiles? I can't find one.

[SWShooter]

I mean has the government tabled a motion to discuss or vote on banning lead projectiles? I can't find one.

 

I had the link sent to me by a club chairman , BASC are upto something with it IIRC

[David Hancock]

In any other sport, manufacturers would be developing alternative solutions not shoving their heads further into the mud. Equally the various associations protecting our "sport".

 

I've heard that next year Bradley Wiggins will be riding in the world championships on a scooter, and Lewis Hamilton has offered to use a pedal car so Rosberg can have a chance of winning !

 

I agree, if we don't fight the proposed lead ban then it will prejudice the sport and chip away at shooting in general but get a life, I don't see regulation to prevent cars being built which travel at lawful speeds or drinks manufacturers being made responsible for pissed up kids being admitted into A&E on a Saturday, or industry dumping pollutants into waterways.

 

There are lead free options out there - but we need to 1 - consolidate our argument as a group and 2 - embrace the change which will happen.

 

Ask yourself this, if McLaren made shotguns with hydrostatic damping in the stock and cooling fins in the barrel, I'd look at it.

 

I've also heard that Nike is moving into the shooting arena to make shotgun cartridges with dimpled little ceramic nano coated pellets to increase stability and accuracy at range.

 

We need positive solutions not entrenched luddite thinking.

 

Oh, BTW I made up the Nike bit !!!!

[banus02]

I have signed ..at the moment lead bullets are a lot cheaper than the currrent alternatives not cheap just cheaper and are made by a lot of companies when the replacement bullets are forced on us it will be more money out of our pockets.with possibly only a few companies making the bullets so we are going to get even more expensive bullets if we can get them in the first place

[SWShooter]

In any other sport, manufacturers would be developing alternative solutions not shoving their heads further into the mud. Equally the various associations protecting our "sport".

 

I've heard that next year Bradley Wiggins will be riding in the world championships on a scooter, and Lewis Hamilton has offered to use a pedal car so Rosberg can have a chance of winning !

 

I agree, if we don't fight the proposed lead ban then it will prejudice the sport and chip away at shooting in general but get a life, I don't see regulation to prevent cars being built which travel at lawful speeds or drinks manufacturers being made responsible for pissed up kids being admitted into A&E on a Saturday, or industry dumping pollutants into waterways.

 

There are lead free options out there - but we need to 1 - consolidate our argument as a group and 2 - embrace the change which will happen.

 

Ask yourself this, if McLaren made shotguns with hydrostatic damping in the stock and cooling fins in the barrel, I'd look at it.

 

I've also heard that Nike is moving into the shooting arena to make shotgun cartridges with dimpled little ceramic nano coated pellets to increase stability and accuracy at range.

 

We need positive solutions not entrenched luddite thinking.

 

Oh, BTW I made up the Nike bit !!!!

You are not keeping up with the times yourself ,there are already alternatives but they are extremely expensive , okay for a stalker but a target shooter who likes to lose off 100rnds every weekend ...

 

http://www.nosler.com/ballistic-tip-lead-free-bullet/

 

 

 

http://www.nosler.com/ballistic-tip-lead-free-bullet/

[Laurie]

Our biggest ally here is the Ministry of Defence which regards the idea of a total ban on lead in ammunition with horror due to the indequacy of alternatives and the huge increase in ammunition costs.

 

The environmentalists and some anti-shooting groups have been pushing this agenda for years. If a total lead ban goes through, no more lead bulleted .22LR ammunition, no more lead core jacketed match rounds. Costs aside, monometal bullets are not even allowed on MoD ranges (which includes Bisley) for range danger area and safety reasons.

 

What this refers to is an about to be published report on the issue by a government (DEFRA) created working panel called the Lead Ammunition Group.

 

http://www.leadammunitiongroup.org.uk/reports/

 

Comments elsewhere say that the unpublished report given to the minister wasn't agreed by most of the panel who walked out over the conclusions being written - the rumours being a recommendation for a complete ban. We'll have to see.

 

Make no mistake though. If lead ammo and lead core bullets are banned for field shooting, rifle ranges won't be exempt. The ban heavy metals types argue that the fact that bullets end up in a sand backstop doesn't stop lead leaching out into groundwater and causing human and animal health problems.

[Chris-NZ]

There is no end to this lunacy. You only have to look at what's been pushed through in CommieFornia (California) to realise that the the loony left-eco-macro-organic-environmentalists want nothing less than the elimination of firearms, full-stop.

 

We've suffered the lead-free shottie ammo rules here for a few years and it's the thin edge of the wedge in my opinion. You guys shouldn't take this lying down

 

Chris-NZ

[gbal]

A reasonably balanced account of the US experience is available in the references at the end here.

In brief,California (and Arizona) found high lead levels and very high lead mortality in the very threatened California Condors.

Studies identified the source -lead fragments ingested from shot game (gralloch remains) and the large number of squirrel size varmints shot with very frangile bullets,and carcases left.The Condors fed these free lunches to their chicks...

Compulsory Use of lead free ammo in the Condor Corridor has much reduced chick mortality.

 

A Dakota study looked at lead ingestion in consistent venison eaters.It found no evidence of lead above safety levels,though high enough to recommend avoiding shot venison in pregnancy,and the first 6 years of life.These studies have somewhat wider interest-there are quite dramatic photos of would channel and Xray lead dust fragmentation effects in the meat.There are recommendations for reducing this,that may be of interest to UK venison shooters/eaters.

 

OK-this,and other,well conducted rsearch is useful..It gives a balanced factual assessment,not an emotional one.

 

For the UK:

Well,we don't have condors.Nor are such large numbers of lead contaminated carcases left in the countryside to be randomly scavaged.

A little care in shot venison preparation might be a good idea,even though there were no high toxic levels found in humans,even among venison eaters.

 

Maybe this puts the issues in perspective-I would think the likes of BASC are onto this.

We have reduced lead in petrol,paint etc-presumably no-one thinks lead toys are a suitable sucking dummy for babies?

I don't know offhand just how the wildfowl lead bans are working out.

 

Two related shooting points have been raised,and merit some careful thought.

 

Lead free ammo is available;it might get better .I have used some 224 Barnes Varmint Grenades- no price premium,accurate,but too light to be serious long range numbers.No Doubt heavier is possible.All copper bullets have their supporters.

Laurie raises an important issue- the status of lead bullets on authorised ranges.Well,the 'environmental' case-leaching into water supplies-has no support that I can find. Maybe we have to have some confidence in a sensible UK decision on this-evidence based,as indeed the US was,where legislation followed.

 

Some seem inclined to 'thin edge of the wedge' etc,but facing challenges pragmatically is usually a better strategy. Being well informed almost always is. You may find a balanced view is consistent with the evidence.You will have rather more influence where it matters,too."Enlightened self interest" is a whole lot more effective than just 'self interest'.

 

*** California now has a healthy,well fed and widely enjoyed Condor population,varmint shooters with highly effective,affordable non lead frangile bullets,carcasses safely tidied up for free (it's all win/win) ...so where does that leave any anti gun factions? ****

 

If you'd like to be informed...google in 'lead fragments in carcasses'/toxic effects of ammo'' or similar: Good readable ones:

 

"Lead bullet risks for wild life and humans" (has the photos)Pinnacles National Park Services

 

"Lead bullet fragments in wild game" Connecticut Dept Energy & Environmental Protection.

 

"Studies lead to Recommendations in lead in game meat" Wildlife Management Institute.

 

gbal

[Laurie]

I had a long discussion with a now retired Defra scientist about this some years ago. The man who is a TR competitor warned that the 'lead issue' was one of the biggest threats facing all forms of shooting as many environmentalists and bureaucrats basically want to see an across the board reduction, better still elimination, of all heavy metals used in society, and where they have to remain in use, very heavily controlled as to both use and disposal / recycling at the end of their lives. Even back then anti-blood sports campaigners were starting to see this as another avenue of applying pressure on the shooting fieldsports.

 

His take as a wildlife scientist about the Californian Condor which started the whole issue off was interesting. The gist of it is that this bird is both large and is almost 100% sustained by eating carrion. As carrion is full of bacteria which would poison most species ourselves included, such birds have a very unusual digestive system adapted to their food source. It runs food through very rapidly and employs extremely aggressive stomach acids to break it down quickly and completely and to kill bacteria off. This is the problem with ingested lead. The acids act on lead particles producing various oxides and compounds which are poisonous, and it was these that killed the birds especially chicks off, not pure lead. (There is a vast amount of metallic lead buried in the UK countryside in the form of lead ore which would have poisoned whole communities if directly toxic to humans - it was the crude onsite smelting processes which produced toxic airborne dusts and gasses which apparently killed the miners off.) While swallowing lead particles is hardly desirable to any species, humans included, lead normally passes through the digestive system without absorption.

 

We do have carrion eaters in our wildlife such as foxes, crow species, and buzzards, but my understanding is that no evidence of their being harmed by eating shot and discarded game or vermin has been found. Looking at the number of reintroduced carrion eating red kites circling over the southern M40 every time I go to Bisley, presumably looking for roadkill, I wonder what pollutants they ingest in their food from other human activities such as vehicle exhausts, oil and tyre rubber films and goodness what other muck you find at roadsides.

[Artiglio]

Surely the millions (probably) of tonnes of lead used through out the country as roof cladding and flashings will introduce far more lead into the environment than shooting ever will, no proposal to ban lead in construction as far as i know.

[gbal]

I welcome the sensible comments of Laurie and Artiglio to an informed dabate.

There has been very little unwarrantedgeneralusation from the Condors-perhaps because they are near unique in their digestive apparatus,nonetheless vulnerable to lead,though.

 

It may well be that lead 'polution' from other sources is greater than from shooting. Exhaust emissions have been addressed (and maybe fiddled by VW of course!) I was making the point that I knew of no research pointingto shooting wash out into water supplies.

Notbeing the major polutor should not mean nothing is done,but if there is no identifiable problem from shooting,then no action there seems justifiable.

 

The wider 'Condors' point is that shooters were not disrupted. If anything,by cooperating,enjoyed an enhancement of their status as effective conservation contributors,both in the general public view and with Wildlife agencies-powerful in USA-and the legislature. Enlightened self interest indeed.An opportunity not a problem. (some probably like condors,too).There may well be improved game ammunition emerging too.

As far as I know,even in California- there were no gay,lesbian,minority,black rights,lefts or rifle ,issues.

 

Shooting may well face some opposed factions in UK,but a reasoned case is preferable to hand wringing,indulgent self intrest,and entrenched opinions ,of quite limited merit. The reasoned,informed case is more effective too,where it matters.

 

On the specific issue,again as Laurie mentions,the MoD would be a good ally-even with it's enhanced Autumn Statement expenditure,it is unlikely that military lead free ammo will find favour anytime soon-the older stuff is needed elsewhere.

 

gbal