TattooedGun Posted October 18, 2015 Report Share Posted October 18, 2015 http://blog.stegough.com/ebay-5-5mm-bor ... ck-review/Got my borescope on Saturday - pushed it quickly through my RPA and Rem 700 - See the results.Will do a proper before and after C2R review shortly to see how well it cleans, but a quick couple of videos to see what you can see with the budget endoscope from ebay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybrock Posted October 18, 2015 Report Share Posted October 18, 2015 That looks like a decent enough camera. If it's a stainless barrel is it rust or just copper fouling you can see? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TattooedGun Posted October 18, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 18, 2015 That looks like a decent enough camera. If it's a stainless barrel is it rust or just copper fouling you can see? It could be copper fouling. From previous experiments the cleaner I was using (Forrest Bore Foam) doesn't really get rid of copper. However it shows up orange enough for me to consider it rust on this. But it is a stainless barrel, so who knows!! >.< Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris-NZ Posted October 19, 2015 Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 Very much doubt it's rust, probably copper with a poor colour rendition on screen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baldie Posted October 19, 2015 Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 Borescopes are only any good if you can read what they are telling you. The Krieger is badly copper fouled and the white spots etc are indeed crap from your patches. There is no rust there. The remington is even more badly fouled. The faint brown trace you can see, evenly running down the grooves ....is copper. The bore scope is very good....suprisingly good, and plenty good enough for seeing whether your cleaning regime is working. Throw the C2R , or whatever it is away, and get a decent copper remover such as Sweets. It isn,t working. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brown dog Posted October 19, 2015 Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 Food for thought: pdf link (We do this with UK artillery.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TattooedGun Posted October 19, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 Borescopes are only any good if you can read what they are telling you. The Krieger is badly copper fouled and the white spots etc are indeed crap from your patches. There is no rust there. The remington is even more badly fouled. The faint brown trace you can see, evenly running down the grooves ....is copper. The bore scope is very good....suprisingly good, and plenty good enough for seeing whether your cleaning regime is working. Throw the C2R , or whatever it is away, and get a decent copper remover such as Sweets. It isn,t working. Of course they are only any good if you know what they are telling you - gotta start somewhere though! Thanks for the heads up on rust vs copper fouling. The Krieger has never really been cleaned "thoroughly" - I've usually spent 30 mins or so after each range session brushing it and adding a few patches after giving it a clean with forrest bore foam. I'm yet to tackle it with C2R and give it a good clean. The Remington, as you could see previously on my blog got cleaned with C2R - I believe it worked quite well at from the lands for 12-15 inches or so, however it's not cleaned as well further up the bore - I believe this is more to do with technique in cleaning than the product. Since I've never been taught really how to clean a rifle thoroughly, I'm still figuring it out - However the borescope certainly tells me that I need to do better - so just how to achieve that is where I'll look next. As you say, the borescope is good enough to see if the cleaning regime is working, and currently it is not. back to it. Thanks again for the info. Food for thought: pdf link (We do this with UK artillery.) I'm not sure molten lead is the most convenient means of getting copper out of the barrel to the home user... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baldie Posted October 19, 2015 Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 TG, all you need to clean a rifle is a rod and guide, a good quality jag, such as proshot, and the correct solvents. Brushes are not needed and do more harm than good in inexperienced hands. The use of a good carbon cleaner with 2-3 wet patches and left to soak for an hour will break away the carbon. Then do the same with 2-3 wet patches of a good copper remover such as Sweets and let the chemicals do the work. I haven't used a brush in my rifles in years and their bores are pristine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TattooedGun Posted October 19, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 TG, all you need to clean a rifle is a rod and guide, a good quality jag, such as proshot, and the correct solvents. Brushes are not needed and do more harm than good in inexperienced hands. The use of a good carbon cleaner with 2-3 wet patches and left to soak for an hour will break away the carbon. Then do the same with 2-3 wet patches of a good copper remover such as Sweets and let the chemicals do the work. I haven't used a brush in my rifles in years and their bores are pristine. I didn't use any brushes in the Remington before cleaning (The Krieger on my RPA is another matter - waiting for a good guide to come before attempting to clean it again) As I say, the first 12 inches or so of my rem seems to be cleaner, however the latter end of the barrel is much less so - I think perhaps I concentrated a little more on the breach end than the muzzle end when cleaning last time. I'll be giving the Rem another go when I get home tonight, and bore scope it again to see the results. I'll try again without brushes and see how I get on. A couple of years of passive "it'll do" attitude has probably not helped with the build up of copper in both rifles. Hopefully a drastic cleaning will help get them both in shape and consequent "top up" cleaning as you've described should help keep the copper at bay. Off Topic - I never got chance to send off a cheque RE. Sako Trigger Spring - don't suppose you have a bank account I could transfer direct to...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brown dog Posted October 19, 2015 Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 I'm not sure molten lead is the most convenient means of getting copper out of the barrel to the home user... In routine use, the lead is molten by virtue of being included as a strip of thick foil in one of the charge increments - it vaporises on firing. I reckon smashing a piece of lead shot as thin as leaf, and then including it half way down a rifle cartridge's charge column could do similar job. Load up 20 rds as normal but include a piece of 'lead leaf' in each of them and use as normal. Be interesting to see a before and after on the coppering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TattooedGun Posted October 19, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 In routine use, the lead is molten by virtue of being included as a strip of thick foil in one of the charge increments - it vaporises on firing. I reckon smashing a piece of lead shot as thin as leaf, and then including it half way down a rifle cartridge's charge column could do similar job. Load up 20 rds as normal but include a piece of 'lead leaf' in each of them and use as normal. Be interesting to see a before and after on the coppering. It's certainly an interesting theory. Wondering why no big ammo brands have tried it and marketted it as a "cleaner" ammo... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brown dog Posted October 19, 2015 Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 It's certainly an interesting theory. Wondering why no big ammo brands have tried it and marketted it as a "cleaner" ammo... 'cos they ain't Artillery experts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrCetrizine Posted October 19, 2015 Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 It would be easier to add bismuth to your powder like Hodgdon do with their CFE powders to stop copper fouling before it happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TattooedGun Posted October 19, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 C2R Cleaning Take 2... http://blog.stegough.com/c2r-cleaning-take-2-borescope-analysis/ After pushing the first patch down, I'm positive that it's not copper fouling and that C2R did it's job... Take a look. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brown dog Posted October 19, 2015 Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 It would be easier to add bismuth to your powder like Hodgdon do with their CFE powders to stop copper fouling before it happens. Why would it be easier?! Quick google and tin/bismuth looks to be the non-toxic civ equivalent: http://www.google.com/patents/US20050115452 I'm not just a pretty face - I think some lead leaf in your normal loads would do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TattooedGun Posted October 19, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 Why would it be easier?! Quick google and tin/bismuth looks to be the non-toxic civ equivalent: http://www.google.com/patents/US20050115452 I'm not just a pretty face - I think some lead leaf in your normal loads would do it. So have you tried it, or do you do it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brown dog Posted October 19, 2015 Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 I would without a blink of an eye - but I don't have any coppering problems. If I did, I'd definitely try it. (Quite amused to moot the idea and almost immediately learn that Hodgdon are already applying the same science to small arms propellant: 'Copper Fouling Eater'; the clue is in the name - I think a single smashed-leaf-thin lead shot pellet in the powder column would make chuff all difference to your normal loads -and you could just shoot your normal powder just as you always have- but may also clear your coppering. Personally, I can't see a downside (anyone?) ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TattooedGun Posted October 19, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 I would without a blink of an eye - but I don't have any coppering problems. If I did, I'd definitely try it. (Quite amused to moot the idea and almost immediately learn that Hodgdon are already applying the same science to small arms propellant: 'Copper Fouling Eater'; the clue is in the name - I think a single smashed-leaf-thin lead shot pellet in the powder column would make chuff all difference to your normal loads -and you could just shoot your normal powder just as you always have- but may also clear your coppering. Personally, I can't see a downside (anyone?) ) Heavier ammunition.... haha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrCetrizine Posted October 19, 2015 Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 Why would it be easier?! Bismuth is available as a powder so no hammering required. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted October 19, 2015 Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 You could try electro cleaning the bore! I will look out my diagram for you. pm me if you want it. I use this method once a year. Or if I want to go from shooting jacketed bullets to cast. Makes the bore shine like new! It uses a watered down ammonia mix and a low current you need a steel or carbon rod and a low current volt meter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TattooedGun Posted October 19, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 To be fair, if you look at my latest link (http://blog.stegough...scope-analysis/) You can see that it was as I suspected surface rust and that C2R application that I did seemed to remove all copper from my bore. My only real issue was that I didn't add enough oil to my patches and it started to rust in my safe. Better storage and better oiling needed. C2R did the job for me in clearing the copper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brown dog Posted October 19, 2015 Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 Bismuth is available as a powder so no hammering required. OK, fair one, but, scanning the Bofors patent I linked earlier, I think you'd need to mix in some powdered tin too. For me, hammering some shotgun pellets flat is something I could achieve in the next 10 minutes and at minimal cost (take apart 1 x 12b shell). Not sure where I'd get powdered tin and bismuth! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrCetrizine Posted October 19, 2015 Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 Amazon sell powered bismuth. Hodgdon don't use tin but you can probably get that online too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brown dog Posted October 19, 2015 Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 Amazon sell powered bismuth. Hodgdon don't use tin but you can probably get that online too. Where are you seeing the Hodgdon ingredient? - I had a google, but couldn't spot it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrCetrizine Posted October 19, 2015 Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 I got it from a Hodgdon rep at last year's shot show. I asked him if the stuff in CFE was the same stuff that's been in several powders for decades. He said, yes bismuth but instead of just dumping a bit in like Winchester and others did with no idea of how it would perform, they actually tested the effects and determined both the right amount and a binding method that stopped it clumping in CFE so it burns consistently enough for demanding target shooters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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