cut or button barrels versus hammer forged barrels

[Swarovski1]

Hi all, I am intrested in the audiences opinions to what you think,are cut or button barrels more accurate than hammer forged barrels,I am talking 1000yds

cheers swaro

[The Gun Pimp]

I don't know of any 1000 yd BR records held by hammer-forged barrels...............

 

Who makes hammer-forged barrels suitable for long-range accuracy shooting?

[Swarovski1]

This is the reason for the question, my 6.5 06 is very accurate, it is a hammer forged armalon barrel, I just feel that its under performing at 1000yds, I was beaten at 1000yds again sunday by 2 shooters using AT 308 accuracy internationals, I am not saying I am the best shooter in the world but do feel I should out shoot them with my superior bc bullets, one of these shooters scores has improved significantly since he has had his AT which have button barrels I learnt today, so say hammer forged barrels are harder and last longer, opinions please

regards swaro

[Swarovski1]

Accuracy wise I checked it about 2 weeks ago with a 10 shot group, apart from one shot that went a fraction higher than the group that measure a fraction over 0.5 high and 0,250 wide, centre to centre.140gr amax, the load I shot sunday at 1000yds was 142gr smks

[gbal]

Swaro,VInce says it very succinctly-long range accuracy records are not held by hammer forged barrels BUT then there are very few if any suitable ones made or shot at long range.

How about the Savage F/TR range-they seem reasonably competitive?

Sako and Tikka owners often have pretty good barrels at the varminter level-though a quality cut custom barrel usually gives an extra edge.

On balance,it would seem that quality cut barrels are more accurate than hammer forged,which tend to be mass produced and therefore cheaper,and less consistently, the consistently excellent accuracy of cut.

 

Your 'comparisons' with your individual rifle are hard to evaluate. There are more factors than barrels involved,probably.You give some 'accuracy' data for your rifle with 140 bullets-but at what range? But you then give competition result-third-using a different bullet....? And we have no data at all on what the successful AIs were shooting-their "BC' may well have been lower,but BC is by no means the whole story:

 

A 6.5 shooting 142g @2950 fps with BC .565 will be matched for wind drift by a 308 bullet of 220g@2650,BC.627 . And any mathematical equivalence of varying weight/BC/velocity. It's unlikely the AIs were shooting very heavy bullets- but we just don't know anything at all about their load. (nor yours,note!) They may well have simply judged wind better (the 6.5 as above is getting 70" deflection at 1000y...).

There are just too many variables-almost all unquantified to come to much of a conclusion-even if thee are differences in the method the barrels were made (quality matters-one reason Sako/TIkka are a bit better than other factory barrels).

AIs are very fine rifles,but are unlikely to outshoot custom cut barreled rigs designed for 1000 BR....on a regular basis-not their mission statement! They might be even better with cut barrels on.

At the Diggle Egg shoot,the egg was hit-you missed your simulated but larger egg at 100yards less-now,what can we conclude of any significance from that ....almost nothing !

I wasn't sure in the end just what your question really was-in general terms Vince answered it,in detail-it's the old "Are men taller than women ?",to which the only answer is "Which man and which woman are we comparing?" ie both vary,quite a lot.And if you substitute "more intelligent " for "taller",the answer is not even "yes,on average" though that's true for height.

 

If that is less than satisfactory,at least it does not follow either that had there been three AIs,you'd have been fourth! Nor if you bought an AI,you'd be first equal.....the AIs were probably not equal...or were they?

See it in context.The best is always temporary :-)

 

gbal

[The Gun Pimp]

I don't doubt that Armalon make a good hammer forged barrel but no one is queuing up to fit 'em to benchrest rifles.

 

If you want an accurate 1000 yard gun with your 6.5-06 you need a quality match grade barrel about 28 inches long and fitted by a competent (or competition) gunsmith.

[Swarovski1]

Thanks chaps that what I thought you would say those sort of things.i am confident that a quality barrel would see my 1000yd shooting improve .george I am fairly confident the ai shooters used 155gr scenars.my 142gr smk load are doing 2800fps and shoot small groups

[gbal]

Thanks chaps that what I thought you would say those sort of things.i am confident that a quality barrel would see my 1000yd shooting improve .george I am fairly confident the ai shooters used 155gr scenars.my 142gr smk load are doing 2800fps and shoot small groups

OK,Neil. Sounds like differences in wind reading then...your rifle seems sub 1/2 moa capable,and the 308s are unlikely to be bucking the wind better than your rifle,if they are using 155s at any feasible,even rather hot,fps. Any very small accuracy difference is unlikely and 1/2 moa gives 5 inches at 1000y,while a .33 moa gives 3.33 inches-again unlikely to account for much,especially as the ballistics go the other way......big factor left is wind reading....(though some cartridges are just intrinsically more accurate,those involved here are not duds,so probably very close..and it's very unlikely the 308s had a buyable advantage.

 

That's quite independent of agreeing that a good cut custom top maker barrel properly fitted is likely to aid precision-pretty much a given. But very equivalent rigs and loads and ballistics don't all end up tie-ing for top place,though a few are pretty close aggregated over a season....so we have our usual factor-wind reading differences-occasionally different conditions on relays-hence the 'over a season' gives a better sample and more level playing field,probably.

gbal

[Swarovski1]

Just realised my phone wrote 2800fps for my 142gr smk load, its actually 2840fps, probaly faster than there 155gr scenar loads, I agree on the wind reading george, it could be better at times,I try to get my 4 shots off each detail quite quick as to shoot on the same gust.well there is only one way to find out if a top quality barrel improves my shooting.

[Swarovski1]

Maybe my accuracy issues are purely a weight to power ratio and not the type of barrel making process.is there a weight when a rifle performs better.at a guess my 6.5 06 is 13 to 14lb scope with bipod and brake on it.i know br and ft shooters have a weight limits to build their rifles too.

[gbal]

Neil,the relationship between rifle weight and precision is reasonable well explored.

 

At the familiar level,it's generally accepted that 'the same rifle' with a heavy profile "varmint" barrel will shoot a bit more precisely,and for more shots,than a similar rifle (even the same rifle) with a lighter sporter profile barrel. Though barrel heating etc are factors,the general principle is supported-heavier barrels are more accurate.

 

WE should beyond that though distinguish intrinsic rifle precision and shootability (to bring in your weight/power-actually weight/recoil is more likely ,though they are close eenough.In part,this distinction is because ,as usual, answers to accuracy questions are best informed by competition shooting,and there shootability comes in,in varying amounts -it's not "macho" recoil don't bother me,it's that recoil affects shooting technique,and hence results-a bit. OK: what do eg Bench Rest performancs tell us:

 

Here afre the World records for two BR federations (yes BR is only one kind of shooting,but it has a real focus on equipment,and generally well controlled conditions-and vast amounts of good data:these are just a selection of the best:

 

IBS/NBRSA Sporter class 10.5 lb,minimum 6mm 5-5 at 200y .1919/.1523 inches aggregate

 

Light Varmint 10.5 lb .1652/.1605

 

Heavy Varmint 13.5 lb .1602/.1485

 

Unlimited .1616/.1396

 

Make of that what you will-weight helps,a little -but we are at the very cutting edge anyhow-often in L/H varmint class the same rifle will be used,just a switch weight barrel put on. Mostly this is 6mm (PPC).

 

Vince or others may have data for say 1000yards,but the pattern is likely to be similar-within allowable limits (and we have very little good data outside those) weight-and it is maximised in the barrel-dos contribute.

Complications come in if 10 shot strings are fired,but don't affect the basics.Likewise,the 'fast shoot' style has some bearing,as heavy is more stable,so allows sight recovery faster,but with competition weight limits,that means the heavier recoilers are disadvantaged.

Just for interest,the recoil increase for a 308 to match the wind bucking of the "standard" 6.5x284 1000yard cartridge-both optimised for fps/BC etc is almost 50 %. (say 16 lb to 23.2 lb);the 7mm need 'only" 18.9 lb,which keeps them within the weight limits for 100y shooting.

As far as I can tell,these limits are quite arbitrary-nothin spectacular happens to a rifle which goes over by a few ounces(except disqualification!)

 

A lot of the sort of rifles you are mentioning would come in around 14-16 lb,with weight variously distributed-mostly not concentrated by design,in a maximally heavy barrel. It may be that one objective reason for light modular chassis systems is that they allow more weight for barrels,but that might be very secondary to 'aesthetics' etc.They do seem to favour minimal stocks too. Anyhow,within simple limits,weight can be added-harder to remove-eg lead in stock,but ultimately these tend to be unsatisfactory short term fixes-and only for recoil.

We "know" that the major contribution to precision/accuracy is the barrel (though it's not easy to quantify,maybe 75%+..?).Heavy barrels are more precise-though short/fat versus longer/slightly leaner is a close run thing -the whole issue of barrel profile,and whether you think a few fps matter (depends on range?)

 

Neil,we've just scratched the surface,maybe. But you can see that a lot of evidence does exist,that is way better than 'my mates 223 Howacanit is dead easy to carry,and shoots better than anything else I've seen" sort of anecdote (the guy clearly hasn't seen much,but it all works for him-happy days).

I don't have really good 1000y -or 600etc- data to hand,but Vince and others will have mega experience,and much more to add. Looking at "practical precision' shooters-sort of 1moa targets scattered around quarries at varied unknown distances,and non ideal positions,suggests a limit of 'practical' weight,and other components-scopes etc.This form of shooting seems closer in some ways to 'field' even stalking,but then the criteria change -we don't need 25 shots in .2 inches for most of the real world.

The across the course (3 position;100 to 600y;rapid/slow fire) is another source of info-much above mid weights will be too much of a handicap....in more real world applications,there is inevitably a trade off-but if you want accuracy/precision, a (cut!) barrel is a good place to put weight. The rarified BR data -with quite small differences- is simply the best controlled data on the effects of (mainly) barrel weight-exclusively so in the switch barrel rifles.

Compromise is everywhere-choose the compromises that suit your shooting.

 

gbal

[Shuggy]

Geoffrey Kolbe's article from 20 years ago will tell you all that you need to know about the 3 common ways of making rifle barrels.

 

http://www.firearmsid.com/feature%20articles/rifledbarrelmanuf/barrelmanufacture.htm

[gbal]

Geoffrey Kolbe's article from 20 years ago will tell you all that you need to know about the 3 common ways of making rifle barrels.

http://www.firearmsid.com/feature%20articles/rifledbarrelmanuf/barrelmanufacture.htm

Yes it's good on the "how to" and 'pros and cons" -including commercially.

 

All he could really express on absolute accuracy,given the evidence at the time, was that when there were really accurate rifles and shooters,cut rifling would be their choice.This has been completely vindicated by Bench Rest shooters using such barrels in the pursuit of extreme rifle accuracy.

 

gbal

[Laurie]

Since Geoff K wrote that, hammer forging techniques have improved in particular the crucial post hammering destressing. There is a Youtube video somewhere of an Armalon barrel being made - very interesting view in itself and worth watching - and you can only guess at what the process does to the blank in terms of imparted stress. The traditional problem with a hammer forged barrel was that even after destressing, some would remain in the finished barrel and would be released as it warms in shooting, a particular issue for range use of course where consistency over 10, 15, or 20 shots is essential. Correcting this seems to have got a lot better over time, but I imagine it's virtually impossible to eradicate entirely.

 

Another issue that many forget or ignore is that hammer forging offers you the rifing form, twist rate, chamber and throat configuration that has been specified for the mandrel. As these are truly horrendously expensive artefacts, the barrelmaker is likely to have a single form, at best a very limited selection. Buy a small production match barrel blank and you can have within reason any rifling twist rate you fancy, down to two decimal places for Bartleins. Then you and your gunsmith can decide exactly which chamber form you want, and tailor the throat to a single make / model of bullet seated optimally in the case if desired. Most gunsmiths won't take a tool to a hammered barrel as they are so hard, so won't 'throat it out' for you if the freebore turns out to be too limiting.

[Shuggy]

It's all much of a muchness. For example two very accurate off the shelf rifles are the Sako TRG22 and the Accuracy International AT or AX. The TRG22 has a hammer forged barrel and the AIs have a button rifled barrel. But there is absolutely no denying that top benchrest/competition shooters chasing ultimate accuracy will all choose cut rifled.

[Swarovski1]

Thanks for that link shuggy, he didn't think much of the hammer forged barrels for accuracy but as laurie said the technique and technologies have changed somewhat, it seems if you are going to give your range rifle a hard life then the hammer forged barrel is the the best choice as they are harder wearing, well all your opinions and info has made my mind up, my 308 has had a good hammering and still shoots great, I wanna 6,5 or 7mm thats super accurate at 1000yds that needs a differently made barrel .

[Swarovski1]

The 6.5 06s fighting weight is 12lb 4oz.with my s5 mod on its 1lb 12oz heavier

[The Gun Pimp]

It's all much of a muchness. For example two very accurate off the shelf rifles are the Sako TRG22 and the Accuracy International AT or AX. The TRG22 has a hammer forged barrel and the AIs have a button rifled barrel. But there is absolutely no denying that top benchrest/competition shooters chasing ultimate accuracy will all choose cut rifled.

Button-rifled barrels are equally regarded by benchrest shooters. Accuracy-wise there is no difference. I'm happy with either but my choice for short- range BR would be a three-groove buttoned Hart.

[The Gun Pimp]

It's all much of a muchness. For example two very accurate off the shelf rifles are the Sako TRG22 and the Accuracy International AT or AX. The TRG22 has a hammer forged barrel and the AIs have a button rifled barrel. But there is absolutely no denying that top benchrest/competition shooters chasing ultimate accuracy will all choose cut rifled.

Button-rifled barrels are equally regarded by benchrest shooters. Accuracy-wise there is no difference. I'm happy with either but my choice for short- range BR would be a three-groove buttoned Hart.

Thanks for that link shuggy, he didn't think much of the hammer forged barrels for accuracy but as laurie said the technique and technologies have changed somewhat, it seems if you are going to give your range rifle a hard life then the hammer forged barrel is the the best choice as they are harder wearing, well all your opinions and info has made my mind up, my 308 has had a good hammering and still shoots great, I wanna 6,5 or 7mm thats super accurate at 1000yds that needs a differently made barrel .

If you are intending to shoot long range competition with your 6.5, that would mean 1000yd BR or F Open.

 

The BR Light Gun limit is 17lbs or 22lbs for F Class.

 

With a 17lb gun you could shoot both. 284 or 6.5-284 would be a good choice.

[Swarovski1]

Recommend me the best choice of barrel, what contour to fit a manners t4a stock,what twist rate for a 6.5x284 using 139gr to 142gr bullets,a 26 inch barrel is my max as it is my stalker, varminter and 1000yd rifle,screw cut 18/1m, expected cost inc fitting inc proof, thanks swaro

[The Gun Pimp]

Swarovski1 - Wouldn't we all love one gun that would do everything!

 

26 inches isn't really long enough to be effective - I.e. competitive at 1000 yds but I would suggest a chat with a decent gunsmith who's actually built a few 1000 yd guns.

[Swarovski1]

I know what you are saying but I dont want loads of rifles,I want a demon alrounder, I made the eggshot tonite with the 6.5 06 ,it wasnt quite an egg but a 512yd wood pigeon facing me, cold bore and a clean bore,hit it smack bang in the middle.

[bradders]

[Swarovski1]

Lol, he he he.... i like it ....what part though bradders

[DW58]

x2 - There's none so blind as those who don't want to see.