Subsonic Hornet ?

[ChrisF]

Thinking of building a 22 Hornet mainly to use with subsonic handloads , thinking of a 1-7 twist re-barrel ? , and about 12-15 inche barrel ?

 

Later Chris

[tackb]

I'm sure somebody has launched a 40gr bullet at subsonic velocity's before? I think they used pure lead and some sort of case that had the priming compound in the rim ? they called it something weird like a 22 long rifle ?

 

don't know if it ever took off though?

[skull hooker]

I'm sure somebody has launched a 40gr bullet at subsonic velocity's before? I think they used pure lead and some sort of case that had the priming compound in the rim ? they called it something weird like a 22 long rifle ?

 

don't know if it ever took off though?

 

Nice one.

[Finman]

I'm sure somebody has launched a 40gr bullet at subsonic velocity's before? I think they used pure lead and some sort of case that had the priming compound in the rim ? they called it something weird like a 22 long rifle ?

 

don't know if it ever took off though?

Heard about that one once...is it the same that they then put a 36gn bullet with a bit more powder and called it the stinger, to make it supersonic and give it a bit more flexibility?..some people...wonder what they were thinking of!

[Andrew]

I'm sure somebody has launched a 40gr bullet at subsonic velocity's before? I think they used pure lead and some sort of case that had the priming compound in the rim ? they called it something weird like a 22 long rifle ?

 

don't know if it ever took off though?

That was my thought as well....~Andrew

[ChrisF]

Sort of , I like the idea of a heavy 22 bullet at subsonic speeds , and yes a rimfire will get close , maybe , I want well HEAVY , NOT a 36 , 38 , 40 or 42 grain bullet ,and I think about the heaviest you can go & still have accuracy out of the standard 1-16 twist rimfire barrels is the out of production Lapua Scoremax at 46gr round nose , it hit hard & was subsonic , IT just happened it was made as a comp biathalon round , BUT it also just happened to be the BEST subsonic hunting ammo ever in my view .

The Aguila SSS was hype over function , it was heavy at 60gr , BUT this would not shoot well out of the std 1-16 twist , it needed a special 1-9 twist , and most rimfire shooters woould not go to the hassle and expense of first finding the special tight twist barrel , so thw ammo was useless to most rimfire shooters .

And the speed was way lower than needed to be quite & subsonic , BUT it used the 22 short case , so visually it looked very striking , this was look over function in at least 2 reguards , 1 ) Speed was way too low , so this meant less hitting power , 2 ) The case being super short had all sorts of extraction & ejection issues .

If they had gone with a std 22LR case , they would have been able to have been higher subsonic vel , and had no reliability problems with the functioning of the 22 short case in 22lr firearms .

 

I am looking at maybe as high as 80gr at high subsonic speeds , THIS is DOUBLE the power of a std subsonic rimfire bullet , thats a usable improvement in my books , a 100% increase .

I know someone has re-barreled a 22 hornet with a 1-7 twist barrel , and is running a 69gr bullet well at subsonic speed with a 18 inche barrel .

The 2 things I donot know , is can I go heavier than 69gr , in terms of the bullet stablising and also LOA , still fitting into a magazine .

At this stage , i have got some 68gr bullets , and they appear at 1st glance to be able to be seated so they will be only 1-3mm longer than a 40gr vmax bullet .

 

So I am pretty sure , I can get it to work with a 68-69gr bullet , not sure about 80 plus grain bullet .

[Andrew]

Sort of , I like the idea of a heavy 22 bullet at subsonic speeds , and yes a rimfire will get close , maybe , I want well HEAVY , NOT a 36 , 38 , 40 or 42 grain bullet ,and I think about the heaviest you can go & still have accuracy out of the standard 1-16 twist rimfire barrels is the out of production Lapua Scoremax at 46gr round nose , it hit hard & was subsonic , IT just happened it was made as a comp biathalon round , BUT it also just happened to be the BEST subsonic hunting ammo ever in my view .

The Aguila SSS was hype over function , it was heavy at 60gr , BUT this would not shoot well out of the std 1-16 twist , it needed a special 1-9 twist , and most rimfire shooters woould not go to the hassle and expense of first finding the special tight twist barrel , so thw ammo was useless to most rimfire shooters .

And the speed was way lower than needed to be quite & subsonic , BUT it used the 22 short case , so visually it looked very striking , this was look over function in at least 2 reguards , 1 ) Speed was way too low , so this meant less hitting power , 2 ) The case being super short had all sorts of extraction & ejection issues .

If they had gone with a std 22LR case , they would have been able to have been higher subsonic vel , and had no reliability problems with the functioning of the 22 short case in 22lr firearms .

 

I am looking at maybe as high as 80gr at high subsonic speeds , THIS is DOUBLE the power of a std subsonic rimfire bullet , thats a usable improvement in my books , a 100% increase .

I know someone has re-barreled a 22 hornet with a 1-7 twist barrel , and is running a 69gr bullet well at subsonic speed with a 18 inche barrel .

The 2 things I donot know , is can I go heavier than 69gr , in terms of the bullet stablising and also LOA , still fitting into a magazine .

At this stage , i have got some 68gr bullets , and they appear at 1st glance to be able to be seated so they will be only 1-3mm longer than a 40gr vmax bullet .

 

So I am pretty sure , I can get it to work with a 68-69gr bullet , not sure about 80 plus grain bullet .

You know not of what you speak. There was no "hype" about the Aguila SSS 60 grain .22LR.

A very good friend of mine designed that cartridge in response from a request from Law enforcement for a very heavy sub-sonic bullet to be fired from a 22LR. The rifles were built on Ruger M77/22 and called "The Poseidon", They came with a HAKKO scope, serial numbered to the rifles. The scopes had an internal level and a stadia reticle regulated to the 60 grain cartridge. I have both the scope and a 1-9" rifle and they are a very accurate combination, indeed. I have shot them out to 200M with remarkable results.

The cartridge caught the public eye and sales have always been good. Green Mountain Rifle Barrel Co makes 1-9" twist Ruger barrels for this cartridge -for those interested. For what it's worth, several of my Brno and CZ 452's with their 1-16" twists shoot these very well to 70M. Where I live, they are very popular with raccoon hunters in both rifle and handgun.~Andrew

[ChrisF]

I will try it again ,in my CZ rifle , in my Sako Finnfire , my Toz17 &a Ruger 10/22 , they all keyholed real bad , actually they where dangerous , as in NZ most 22 rimfires are used with suppressors , luckily I used it 1st with out cans , I brougt a Russian Toz17 , just because it was rumoured to be able to stablise the 60gr , in my Toz17 , they still keyholed bad .

 

Stuff that makes sense in the US , due to availibility or price , does not make any sense outside the US , prices of barrels and ammo are much higher , and usually at a higher price point other things make sense .

 

17HMR is a good example of this , in NZ , ammo for this is very expensive , and in NZ most have moved away from it , those few that gave it a try , anyway , others like me the numbers never added up on it ,

[tackb]

I'd say do it then and let us know how you get on ?

 

personally if I was looking for more subsonic thump I wouldn't go your way because it's still .22 and won't have the velocity to expand , also at subsonic velocity's the ballistic coefficient is irrelevant really ? I would go up calibre and that way your starting with a bigger hole ?

 

maybe something like the 300 blackout?

[banus02]

hi,are you intent on bouncing larger chunks of lead around the country side ? small fast bullets are sooo much safer,at least you be out of our range ....

[Andrew]

I will try it again ,in my CZ rifle , in my Sako Finnfire , my Toz17 &a Ruger 10/22 , they all keyholed real bad , actually they where dangerous , as in NZ most 22 rimfires are used with suppressors , luckily I used it 1st with out cans , I brougt a Russian Toz17 , just because it was rumoured to be able to stablise the 60gr , in my Toz17 , they still keyholed bad .

 

Stuff that makes sense in the US , due to availibility or price , does not make any sense outside the US , prices of barrels and ammo are much higher , and usually at a higher price point other things make sense .

 

17HMR is a good example of this , in NZ , ammo for this is very expensive , and in NZ most have moved away from it , those few that gave it a try , anyway , others like me the numbers never added up on it ,

I hear you on the key holeing. Any Marlin micro-goove barrel will send them humming end over end after about 10 yards! MY 1-18" twist 10-22 will barely hold a 8x11" target at 25M. (understandable enough considering the twist!)

 

My Brno#5 will toss them into about one hole at 50M. My CZ and BRNO's all shoot them pretty well out to 70M actually, now that I gave away my CZ 453. That was the only CZ/BRNO bolt gun that did not group reasonably well.

FWIW the round was never designed for an autoloader and they tend to exhibit a lot of recoil energy against the bolt and spit flame out the side of the action. In my 10/22 they do (and shoot miserably) but my Brno 581 likes them.

 

I'm surprised you can get them in NZ at all. The supplies in the US have, like all 22LR, dried up. I have 6 or 7 bricks of it and then it's gone so i save it for my 1-9" gun.~Andrew

[ChrisF]

In NZ we have not seen Aguila ammo in at least 8yrs or more ( I think this was due to however was bringing the Mexican Ammo in , stopping for whatever reason ) , I use to like it in either the moderator or SE line both being subsonic , a lot of Kiwi shooters miss the Aguila line wether under PMC or Aguila name .

 

In NZ as we have wide spread use of suppressors on 22 rimfires , subsonic ammo is used a lot , as it just makes sense .

 

RE the SSS , I wanted it to work , BUT in my rifles it hasn't , its been dangerous with keyholing/inaccuracy and due to the heavy weight and keyholing it had the tendency on hard ground to richoct badlily .

 

I went out to , try it again , thru a chopped Russian Toz17 ( 12 inche barrel ) , a std 28 inche CZ bolt gun , model 2E I think , and a std Annie 1710 bull barrel , it keyholed in all rifles , shoot it at 26 & 46 yds , groups where more like a shotgun , the Annie which is basiclly a repeater tatget rifle , and this one shoots very good , it was 3.25 inches at 46yds , the CZ was a little better at 2.5 inches at 46yds .

But the group size and size & shape of the holes indicated the bullet was not stablished enough , showing complete side on ( keyhole ) & variations in between , ie 1/2 side on ( 45 degrees ) .

 

It feed OK in all rifles , & extracted OK , BUT approx 1/2 the time it left the fired case sitting on the next rd in the mag , so I presume due to the short case , it was doing this , so ejection was a problem in all rifles .

 

One other thing I noticed , was due to the way the round is , ie the 22 short case & bullet , and using this in a mag designed for the 22LR , I noticed that as you push the round on top of another , ie you are loading the mag , you are pushing the rim down on top of the un-protected lead bullet , where on a 22LR , you are pushing the rim down on the brass case , so you could maybe damage or mark the bullet ?

 

Anyway , the accuracy out of those 3 rifles , means for me its not accurate enough to use hunting & dangerous to suppress due to baffle strike .

 

Later Chris

[Shuggy]

If you were looking to lob a subsonic chunk of lead you could do a lot worse than to try and emulate one of the old rook rifles. I think that the bullets were 0.295" and 80 grains. Not quite the same, but a Handi rifle in 0.38/0.357" would come close. Or you could have fun getting a gunsmith to cut down a Marlin 1894CB in 0.32 H&R Magnum. I've also read that some people have converted old .410 shotguns into 0.32 S&W.

[Andrew]

In NZ we have not seen Aguila ammo in at least 8yrs or more ( I think this was due to however was bringing the Mexican Ammo in , stopping for whatever reason ) , I use to like it in either the moderator or SE line both being subsonic , a lot of Kiwi shooters miss the Aguila line wether under PMC or Aguila name .

 

In NZ as we have wide spread use of suppressors on 22 rimfires , subsonic ammo is used a lot , as it just makes sense .

 

RE the SSS , I wanted it to work , BUT in my rifles it hasn't , its been dangerous with keyholing/inaccuracy and due to the heavy weight and keyholing it had the tendency on hard ground to richoct badlily .

 

I went out to , try it again , thru a chopped Russian Toz17 ( 12 inche barrel ) , a std 28 inche CZ bolt gun , model 2E I think , and a std Annie 1710 bull barrel , it keyholed in all rifles , shoot it at 26 & 46 yds , groups where more like a shotgun , the Annie which is basiclly a repeater tatget rifle , and this one shoots very good , it was 3.25 inches at 46yds , the CZ was a little better at 2.5 inches at 46yds .

But the group size and size & shape of the holes indicated the bullet was not stablished enough , showing complete side on ( keyhole ) & variations in between , ie 1/2 side on ( 45 degrees ) .

 

It feed OK in all rifles , & extracted OK , BUT approx 1/2 the time it left the fired case sitting on the next rd in the mag , so I presume due to the short case , it was doing this , so ejection was a problem in all rifles .

 

One other thing I noticed , was due to the way the round is , ie the 22 short case & bullet , and using this in a mag designed for the 22LR , I noticed that as you push the round on top of another , ie you are loading the mag , you are pushing the rim down on top of the un-protected lead bullet , where on a 22LR , you are pushing the rim down on the brass case , so you could maybe damage or mark the bullet ?

 

Anyway , the accuracy out of those 3 rifles , means for me its not accurate enough to use hunting & dangerous to suppress due to baffle strike .

 

Later Chris

 

Your results don't surprise me. I have no clue why a few of my rifles group it well (within reason) and some, not at all. I might suspect that it has something to do with depth of rifling because the Marlin, with it's shallow micro-groove rifling won't stabilize it at all. It goes wild-weasel after 12 yards. My Brno #5 is just the opposite. I really have no answer but I know that my buddies two Brno #2' shoot it well to at least 50 yards. When my buddy Efrain was up visiting we were shooting and when he saw the 25M groups I got with the SSS he just shrugged and laughed. It was beyond him, as well. "It should not work." was his comment.~Andrew

 

PS: Aguila has gone through some corporate rumblings over the last couple of years. It may be a while yet. The PMC line is gone forever. One of my all time favorite rounds was their HV "SE" round which had less SD and ES than the popular (here) "Wolf Match" made by SK. Sub MOA and a real bunny banger...

[ChrisF]

Yeap ,

 

I have looked at 300BLK & 357mag in a bolt gun & also the 44mag , both the 357 & 44 really require a little faster twist to stablise heavy bullets , for me the 357 stands out , people have used it shooting 200-245gr bullets in 38spl cases , the 357 Ruger with factory barrel is usually twice as accurate compared to the 44mag model , also I think it would be a little quiter due to the reduced calibre size when compared to the 44mag .

[Shuggy]

For 0.38 special, I would take a look at the 158 grain LSWC hollow point. They are proven to expand at subsonic velocities, which could be useful for bigger quarry.

[Andrew]

For 0.38 special, I would take a look at the 158 grain LSWC hollow point. They are proven to expand at subsonic velocities, which could be useful for bigger quarry.

 

If you are going to use these you must pay specific attention to your pressures. Pure lead will cause some real problems if you run them too hot, and/or the bullet is not a good fit to the throat. Remember: Velocity and pressures are independent of each other. Make sure all the copper fouling is out of your barrel before you start down that route. One of my best S&W revolvers, a 1958 built four-inch Model 28 Highway Patrolman was picked up for next to nothing because the owner said the bore was shot out. It wasn't shot out, but leaded smooth from the use of pure lead Speer 158 SWC. It took me quite a while to get that out but it cleaned up like new.~Andrew