.20 cal BC's

[Sherlock]

when I got my .204, I didn't have in mind a 'BC' nor did I get it because I wanted to hit things at 400+ yds....I got the rifle because I liked the spirit of the cartridge (high speed, quirky 5mm calibre, inherent dislike of the .223). Getting hung up on 'which bullet shall I use on a rifle I haven't even got', is IMHO, the wrong end of the stick as is the attitude that has been displayed by the OP in some of the messages.

 

Bottom line: want to hit stuff at 400yds? get a 6mmBR and up. ...........Want to enjoy low recoil, cheap reloads, great speeds and explosive vermin impacts? get a .204Ruger, use a 39gn SBK, learn its behaviour at various distances by shooting the damn thing

 

 

my 2p

 

Finman

 

Nobody on this thread has implied that verifying load data in the field isn't the key to successful shooting.

The advantage in being able to read the wind along the flight path of the bullet is something that all of us develop with practice on the trigger - not the keyboard.

 

Personally I think Big Al is sensible to ask the question regarding what is the true of 20 cal bullets - I just wish I asked this question before I bought mine and received an answer similar to the one I provided .... Totally based on field work BTW.

 

The 20 cal is described as having a trajectory very similar to a 22.250 - but with powder consumption and recoil levels closer to a 223.

 

The relatively high BC of the bullets of the 20 cal was one of the big selling points that its manufactures gloried in when it was first released back in 2006 . Hornady stated bullet velocities that were only achievable with using their factory loads and a 26 in tube..... and for good measure , were a bit liberal with the BC's .

 

Regarding your post and the fact that you didn't get it for shooting at 400 yrds with - FINE. you wanted a point and squirt rifle then the 204 or 17 rem is the ticket.

 

however its a mistake to think that the 204 is only useful as a point and squirt gun - the 204 is a very caperable round at 400 yrds + as is the 17 rem by the way - and the 7 rabbits that were dispatched on sunday afternoon at ranges between 360 and 415 yrds , are testament to its effectiveness.

 

Your last point -- "Bottom line: want to hit stuff at 400yds? get a 6mmBR and up " well that's just plain wrong.

 

If I may. I own and run a 22.250 with an 8 twist - it fires and 80 grn Amax at 3300 fps - the true BC of this bullets is 0.472. As the former owner of two 6mmBR ( great round BTW) the 22.250 is flatter and drifts less and hits with more energy.

 

Please compare. ( BTW this isn't theoretical - this is from rifles which I have hunted and shot with )

 

300 yrds - 6mmBR - Bullet 105 Amax @ 2850 fps - Drop 12.0 inches - Drift 6.1 Inches - Impact energy 1253 fpe

300 yrds - 22.250R - Bullet 80 Amax @ 3300 fps - Drop 8.0 inches - Drift 5.3.Inches - Impact energy 1277 fpe

 

 

500 yrds - 6mmBR - Bullet 105 Amax @ 2850 fps - Drop 50.0 inches - Drift 18.1 Inches - Impact energy 922 fpe

500 yrds - 22.250R - Bullet 80 Amax @ 3300 fps - Drop 35.7 inches - Drift 15.7 Inches - Impact energy 950 fpe

 

 

700 yrds - 6mmBR - Bullet 105 Amax @ 2850 fps - Drop 123.0 inches - Drift 38.1 Inches - Impact energy 681 fpe

700 yrds - 22.250R - Bullet 80 Amax @ 3300 fps - Drop 89.7 inches - Drift 33.1 Inches - Impact energy 693 fpe

 

 

Now its not a Willy Waving contest - and there are undoubtedly calibres that are better than the 22 cal above .... but your are absolutely wrong to think that 22 CF's or 20 CF's cant cut it at 500 yards.

 

 

Kindest regards

S

[Big Al]

With the same rationale a 22.250AI could do what you wish, with less hassle...and so would a .243... But then of course there's the issue of 'recoil' (jungle re has an interesting quote from edi as his signature, worth checking out...)

In any case, you wish to convince yourself that you found the wheel first, be my guest...as for the 17Rem, didn't it shoot sooty cases??

 

All the best of luck in your quest...!

 

Finman

 

1. Ive looked at the data and don't want either of these calibers, useful stuff that data when needing to make decisions.

 

2. I don't think any rational reader of this thread would think that I think this, Ive found nothing apart from other peoples data which is very useful to me and that Im grateful for. Its much easier to follow in the footsteps of others than to cut a path of your own.

 

3. Yes it did, hence why Im still looking.

 

With respect Finman Im out of this debate with you now as its just getting silly and going nowhere.

[Finman]

Nobody argued to the contrary: of course there are rifles and riflemen that can prove the ballistics wrong. SirSlotsALot who was posting here was a magician (and I'm sure he still is) with a 17Rem. BUT, he knew his drops he knew to read the wind and I'm sure he shot more rounds in an afternoon than I do in a month.

 

And of course there are cartridges that can do a lot of things at distances which, at first glance one would think it is hard to do. I'm a lazy man: the 6mmBR makes thing easy, it is not a barrel burner or a shoulder thumper and if I want I can push it to 1000yds. Hence my assertion, based on my own reading, experience and beliefs, which, at the end of the day, each dialogue is based upon.

 

What I have an issue with is sarcasm on the basis of something read on an Internet site, unsubstantiated statements and dismissal of experience...

 

Sherlock, you and I are in complete agreement...

 

All the best

 

Finman

[gbal]

Panos,a couple of points like yours:

 

What 100/200 Bench Rest comp in the past 10 years has not been won by the 6PPC,and how many -to the nearest ten thousand -have been won by 6PPC: and in the top twenty at any major competition,how many are not 6PPC.

The dominant for score cartridge at 300y is the 30BR.

 

The 6BR has won some 1000y comps,I don't recall any 30/22/220 BR wins....so we conclude?

 

AS much of this has swung to (LR) target shooting,could one suggest that calibre tends to be the first choice,then cartridge,then bullet-but it is all confounded- those choosing the dominant 7mm know full well there are very good BC bullets in 7mm,so choices are not independent. I get the impression that a new bullet excites if it offers superior BC (or sometimes something else-Berger s hybrids ,for example-tolerant).

An improved 416 won't cut it with the F classers etc,of course.....why illuminates all this:

In part because of recoil issues-whatever macho men think(and I like the adrenaline the 470 nitro double,fast) recoil is not a desiderata in target shooting-on the contrary,it is a disadvantage.One of the major reasons competitive (BC) 30 caliber cartridges are not very popular is that to be competitive,their recoil becomes a serious disadvantage to shootability,and just prohibitive if one wants to shoot a string fast,in the current fashion.It's not a wimpy thing,though some may dislike the discomfort too.

 

It's a competitive game.What do you think would happen if a very high 6.5 bullet appeared.My money would be on it being embraced enthusiastically ,then a balanced 6.5 cartridge chosen,and next season,s rifle chambered for it.....all on BC (and already known characteristics of 6.5s,of course.-the higher BC just makes them better.

I see no problem in having this view,and not seeing BC as the complete answer to 400y varminting.

 

And I like almost all my rifles/cartridges-though I'd say the 6PPC is really the only one that is optimal for its use-100BR.

Sherlock-with impeccable use of ballistic numbers-convinced me that the 6mm might only be a close second to your proposed 22/250 for 500y small varmints -until a high BC 6mm out and out varmint bullet comes on the market (the 115 Dtac easily has the ballistics,but unproven terminal performance was the doubt.)

Now ,I'll be very interested in that high BC 6mm when it appears,and decisions will flow from that bullet alone (but of course against a considerable existing intelligence about 6mm cartridges, twists etc etc.)

 

Very little happens in a vacuum-as I''ve often said,it's complex...too complex for simple solutions,based on one variable only.Cross referring between disciplines (varmints and 100y target) can help,but also obscure,don't you think?

 

And yes,the human operator is one of those variables.

 

Constructive exchanges of engaged views are enjoyable,and I'm sure ,generally informative.Since soap boxing (with numbers) gently on the varmint calibres,I don't think I've seen the 'it's so much flatter' myth so often,and no varmint plagues have resulted......yet! :-)

We won't all agree on every decimal place,but so what!

I absolutely agree on actual experience shooting-not everyone learns equally though,and some outstanding performances might be despite the cartridge rather than because of it-all the more impressive,of course as evidence for the shooters skill,not in itself a reason for the newbie to assume everyone can emulate.(this sentence added as other posts have come in-and most interesting too-I must improve my typing speed,pretty poor for a keyboarder! :-) good stuff,lads.

 

atb

 

g

[Finman]

George,

 

There's a fly in the ointment: I was looking at past issues of Precision shooting and saw that the predominant round in a number of BR competitions was the 30BR...

 

But, staying on point, there's few amongst us who would think that .17 or .20 cal rounds of any description are the 'go to' 500+yds rifle or that, even though they may make it to that distance they are efficient in dispatching vermin ethically at these distances as well.

 

And, finally, there's only so much others can tell us. This discussion has inpassionate proponents of this or that, however, it is hard to discriminate between passion and fact. One's own effort and fact gathering from reliable information is what informs, always in conjunction to intended use. Whoever found the do-all calibre may they share it with us...

 

Finman

[Andrew]

 

Regarding your post and the fact that you didn't get it for shooting at 400 yrds with - FINE. you wanted a point and squirt rifle then the 204 or 17 rem is the ticket.

 

Your last point -- "Bottom line: want to hit stuff at 400yds? get a 6mmBR and up " well that's just plain wrong.

 

 

 

Kindest regards

S

 

I agree. I have seen too many bottle sized sod rats sent to the great beyond with a 20 Tactical at 400+ to agree with that. My girl friend was hitting prairiedogs at 400 on her first outing with my 204. It is truly a point and shoot at that distance.~Andrew

[Finman]

I agree. I have seen too many bottle sized sod rats sent to the great beyond with a 20 Tactical at 400+ to agree with that. My girl friend was hitting prairiedogs at 400 on her first outing with my 204. It is truly a point and shoot at that distance.~Andrew

Would,you shoot a fox at that distance with that calibre? And what is the shot/hit ratio at that distance even at prairie dogs? There's point and squirt, there also spray and pray...

[gbal]

Good morning,all calibres

As it's too wet for the field,the keyboard will have to do.

Panos,let's sort out that 'Fly in the ointment' (that 6ppc is the 1/200 BR cartridge par excellence).

Harvey Donaldson provided the means many many decades ago,and his test still has great validity:an accurate rifle is one that can hit a fly at 100y,with no more than 2 shots-provided the fly does not move.

OK,the ointment will anchor the little bug-here's the deal-the shooter has one shot,if he hits game over,if he misses,he adjusts for the second.With 'an accurate rifle' the fly will be hit-there were rather few 'accurate rifles' in Harvey's day.Not so now-let's change the set up slightly-the first shot is quite likely a hit,but if you are allowed to change the scope dials a few clicks,without telling the shooter,it will be a miss.Nonetheless,that ''sighter' as it then becomes,enables the shooter to readjust for a second shot hit.

Best cartridge-6PPC....It may be that you looked at the "for score"results and there-as I said-the 30BR dominates-it is almost as accurate as the 6PPC,but the extra hole size clips enough inner rings to overall produce higher scores,compared to the slightly tighter precision grouping of the PPC. I like the 30BR,though mine being "just" a trued Remington, it is limited to the .2s.

 

As it happens I'm rereading Mike Ratigan's "Extreme Rifle Accuracy",and he includes the 2005 World Benchrest Championship top 20 Equipment lists,for both light and heavy varmint class.UK had some competitors,on that list,who can confirm generally,I'm sure,for those suspicious of 'just statistics':in both categories the top 20 was made up of 19 6PPCs,and 1 22PPC (Mike's project rifle).page 29,and on p16 he writes " Almost 100% of the field today is using a 6PPC."....have been for decades,still does.

 

OK....nobody disproves accurate ballistic data. Some exceptional shooters/wind readers can pull off remarkable (long) shots....but if the ballistics say 800y drop/drift is 204/132 inches,that's the exact judgement they have incorporated into their hit.Great skill-I entirely accept and insist that only if repeated with a high success rate (80%?).Mostly,shots hit ratio is not given,or it's so small as to be unreliable (even if valid/true).Nonetheless,remarkable and not something most can aspire too.But it is despite the Balistics-ie it's difficult- it does NOT negate the numbers.(that would need a change in gravity,and that is not happening any time soon in a given location.)

Just as an aside ,too-still wet: Andrew,I had an acqaintence who shot varmints,and paid about $500 for his AMMO- 25 rounds of .470 Nitro Express.The rifle was a bit more (think x30).They were quite big varmints,in Kenya. Recoil was acceptable,in the circumstances.

 

This also raises the issue of terminal effect. I simply don't see 8-10 ft lbs as certain fatal on rabbits,having seen some 22rf failures,though some nonFAC shooters claim it is.I'd like x10 times.

So fox is in a quite different bracket from crows-as is evident in most posts.For small varmints,most sensible cf rifles should have well enough energy (if delivered effectively) with plenty reserve.(eg 22/250 should be well over 300 ft lb at 500y,a 17 rem will be more like half that...).

 

Rain easing....it seems,after the usual scenic,but interesting and informative,tour,we are in some agreement with what was said at the start:

do some research,aware of the need for care in which figures you use,then field test-which is the only data to use when shooting sentient targets.(and it's pretty sensible to rely on it alone for gongs etc too!-though if you miss them,it's only your pride that gets wounded.)

If you can't do numbers,fall back on someone who has real field experience with your choice.The numbers are still there,you just risk becoming a ballistic Icarus* with corresponding tragic trajectory.

 

I'm still inclined to the 6mms-because the data is so close (way better with 115g) but I can see that a more skilled field shooter might not be handicapped with a 22cf,so it's not all numbers-never was,as long as the competing numbers are real and very similar and very good.....and skill is in the equation!

 

gbal

 

* don't try Icarus at home,even on a cool,wet day. He missed,big time.

[Andrew]

Would,you shoot a fox at that distance with that calibre? And what is the shot/hit ratio at that distance even at prairie dogs? There's point and squirt, there also spray and pray...

 

Would I shoot a fox at that distance? In a heartbeat -and our fox are a lot smaller than yours. If you're refering to killing power, well, we shoot 40 pound coyotes at that distance with the 204. It's currently the darling of the local coyote hunters.

 

The hit to miss ratio on a prairiedog depends on the shooter and the wind. Prairiedogs when standing are about 3.5" wide at the base and a little over an inch and a half wide at the head. About 7" in height. Most of the time they are standing in the grass or lying in their holes, providing a smaller target yet. Misses are within inches and well within the kill zone of a larger animal.~Andrew