joshmartin8 Posted June 26, 2014 Report Share Posted June 26, 2014 hi guys I'm in a predicament, (sorry if you can't get what i mean) i am soon to be converting my AR to a dedicated night vision setup, its a 1 in 9 twist and weirdly loves heavy loads..... it loves both 55 balistic tips and 80 ballistic tips, it currently set up firing single fed 80's for long-range as they have amazing bc against the 55's, my thoughts are - 1. should i go back to the 55s as i know they shoot well, 2. should i run the 80s cos they are awesome in wind but that would mean i would have to-drop the Coal back on the 80s so they can be mag fed- but then will they still shoot well in the 1in9 cos they are not single fed and won't be able to launch them as fast (to much chamber pressure to to short COALS for 80s) Ballistic puzzles-- my brain doesn't sleep cos of this that which promotes growth and vigour, lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pork chop Posted June 26, 2014 Report Share Posted June 26, 2014 nothing to be gained using high bc loads on a nv rig as your unlikely to be shooting much over 200 y.if your gun likes both loads why limit yourself to single shot.I'm assuming it's a foxing rig so you really need an expanding bullet ,didn't know you could get expanding that heavy in .224 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbal Posted June 26, 2014 Report Share Posted June 26, 2014 PC is absolutely spot on-you will need the convenience of mag feed far more than the VERY small ballistic difference when foxing..... 55g BT @ 3240 drop/drift /energy 100y 1.4/1/1005 200y 0/4.3/780 300y 7/11/565 77g @2800 2/1/1100 200y 0/4/920 300y 9/9/740 These are commercial loads so comparable(not hotted up-no need!),and 200 zero,10mph wind: with a more realistic 150 zero the differences would be even smaller.Energy is "ample".Proper expanding bullet construction is important. I don't have data for 80 commercial load,but it will be very close to 77g. BC etc only come into the reckoning when stretching the range for target shooting.(the 80/90g derive from "across the course" US shooting esp at 500y,where single feed in the AR platform was a price worth paying for some ballistic gain). Gbal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joshmartin8 Posted June 26, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 26, 2014 nothing to be gained using high bc loads on a nv rig as your unlikely to be shooting much over 200 y.if your gun likes both loads why limit yourself to single shot.I'm assuming it's a foxing rig so you really need an expanding bullet ,didn't know you could get expanding that heavy in .224 I might be stretching out to as far as 350 on mr fox at night but i suppose comparing there two just at short distance there is not going to be much gained from a higher bc bullet at those ranges, slightly more wind deflection but not a lot i suppose, just increase my field skills holding for wind with a lighter bullet i think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbal Posted June 26, 2014 Report Share Posted June 26, 2014 I might be stretching out to as far as 350 on mr fox at night but i suppose comparing there two just at short distance there is not going to be much gained from a higher bc bullet at those ranges, slightly more wind deflection but not a lot i suppose, just increase my field skills holding for wind with a lighter bullet i think. As you say,here are the 400y data: 55g 22/21 and 77 g 25/17 as always, with the heavier bullet,you trade a little more drop,for a little less drift.....most shooters will not be very accurate anyhow in their estimates od distance,and especially wind,at 350 yards at night.... G Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pork chop Posted June 26, 2014 Report Share Posted June 26, 2014 I might be stretching out to as far as 350 on mr fox at night but i suppose comparing there two just at short distance there is not going to be much gained from a higher bc bullet at those ranges, slightly more wind deflection but not a lot i suppose, just increase my field skills holding for wind with a lighter bullet i think. even if you are going to reach out to 350 i don't think you'll see much gain in using the high bc bullets.end of the day there's no hard and fast rules ,you need to use the load you've got the most confidence in.more interestingly what setup you using ,I've just brought a drone and can see 400y easy.wouldn't try for a fox at that range though but nice to see them coming Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joshmartin8 Posted June 26, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 26, 2014 even if you are going to reach out to 350 i don't think you'll see much gain in using the high bc bullets.end of the day there's no hard and fast rules ,you need to use the load you've got the most confidence in.more interestingly what setup you using ,I've just brought a drone and can see 400y easy.wouldn't try for a fox at that range though but nice to see them coming Yeah think i will go with the 55s as like you said i already have confidence in them, what is this drone I'm hearing about???? i have a raptor so distance isn't a problem its the mag as i only have 4 power so about 400 is my max on holding the reticle over a fox, even then i would be not so sure as to take that shot as you couldn't be sure on a humane kill/ shot placement Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pork chop Posted June 26, 2014 Report Share Posted June 26, 2014 drone pro 10x mag ,only had it a week or so but it's a great bit of kit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joshmartin8 Posted June 26, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 26, 2014 drone pro 10x mag ,only had it a week or so but it's a great bit of kit just looked on youtube and had a gander at it, doesn't look a bad bit of kit for a digital optic, do you have to use an ir past 200 very often?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pork chop Posted June 26, 2014 Report Share Posted June 26, 2014 I've found you need to use the ir no matter the range.spooked the last fox i shot with the click of the torch being turned on,as foxes tend to do he stopped for one last look that cost him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joshmartin8 Posted June 27, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 27, 2014 I've found you need to use the ir no matter the range.spooked the last fox i shot with the click of the torch being turned on,as foxes tend to do he stopped for one last look that cost him yeah can imagine you would have to use ir, i only use it on the raptor if its over 250-300 as a rule or to light up a dark hedgerow or something, its about 210yards to the gate so if fox was keeping close to the hedge i might not see him clearly and might sweep past him, highly doubt ide not see him thou 340yards to the sheep so past 400 would be a tricky accurate shot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dorg Posted June 27, 2014 Report Share Posted June 27, 2014 I tried a straight pull for foxing found it way too loud, if you pull the cocking lever back and let it go you will scare every fox for miles, maybe be the worst rifle I ever used for foxing. Using nightvision you need the flattest tradjectory you can get as its very hard to judge distance. Make sure the tips are varmint tips so they expand not drill neat little holes. Your Raptor is a fantastic bit of kit and will make a drone look like a joke. using a 223 for foxing will mean a good few runners although well shot and their are much better calibres especially using nightvision, more speed will really make best use of your raptor. I have used it all and seen most things and this is what I have found Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sussexsteve Posted June 27, 2014 Report Share Posted June 27, 2014 Having looked through both I would beg to differ. I think the drone pro more than holds its own at a fraction of the cost and weight. Atb Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbal Posted June 27, 2014 Report Share Posted June 27, 2014 I tried a straight pull for foxing found it way too loud, if you pull the cocking lever back and let it go you will scare every fox for miles, maybe be the worst rifle I ever used for foxing. Using nightvision you need the flattest tradjectory you can get as its very hard to judge distance. Make sure the tips are varmint tips so they expand not drill neat little holes. Your Raptor is a fantastic bit of kit and will make a drone look like a joke. using a 223 for foxing will mean a good few runners although well shot and their are much better calibres especially using nightvision, more speed will really make best use of your raptor. I have used it all and seen most things and this is what I have foundAbsolutely agree about flat as possible trajectory ....but even with a 200 zero,and so less than 1 inch high at 100,can you better a 4 inch drop at 300y?17 rem,204,22/250,243 are all 4", hot 6mm/20/22BR might make about 4".....(223 might scrape 5.5,so isn't quite in the same class-though an 223 AI might just make the 4" club. All this is at a rather long 300y of course.So there are limits to what is possible,when you actually look at the data... Action noise will be an issue,as will bullet performance-here the top ballistic cartridges might show a slight difference? But there are other reasons not to use a 6mm(despite it's wind and knockdown advantage too)...and so the pros and cons go....but 4" is the least drop around. Gbal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dorg Posted June 27, 2014 Report Share Posted June 27, 2014 I take your point about cost but no digital on this earth will touch a decent tubed unit, I am abit gob smacked that you think they are equal,we had both out wednesday night. A drone may do the job but an envis on the back of a Sightron will leave it standing an a dedicated gen 3 is just a different league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunner Posted June 27, 2014 Report Share Posted June 27, 2014 hi guys I'm in a predicament, (sorry if you can't get what i mean) i am soon to be converting my AR to a dedicated night vision setup, its a 1 in 9 twist and weirdly loves heavy loads..... it loves both 55 balistic tips and 80 ballistic tips, it currently set up firing single fed 80's for long-range as they have amazing bc against the 55's, If it were me id drop the 80 Amaxes i presume ? As i cant think of any other B-tip 80 except that one ! Id look at Noslers 60 grain B-tip in 224 , have a slight edge on the 50-55s but better results on Charlie . Simples-ee! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joshmartin8 Posted June 27, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 27, 2014 Having looked through both I would beg to differ. I think the drone pro more than holds its own at a fraction of the cost and weight. Atb Steve You obviously do not have a lot a lot experience in the tubed night vision world, digital relies heavily on IR light sources , The raptors will work in pitch black conditions with no IR, NO moon shine and in just starlight conditions and still detect a man at over 1k on an open field, Foxing with a raptor is out of this world at up to 300+ with just moonlight alone. lets see a digit do that i welcome our pictures ............ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joshmartin8 Posted June 27, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 27, 2014 O MY GOD< JUST TO PRE WARN YOU GUYS IVE TOLD MY MATE ABOUT THIS SITE AND HE IS JUST LOGGED ON. PREPARE FOR DOUGS INPUT INTO THIS SUBJECT LMAO #fruiter .............sorry dougy couldn't help it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
douglee223 Posted June 27, 2014 Report Share Posted June 27, 2014 I fully agree with Joshmartin8 as I own a TVNC Raptor M646 x6 power fitted with an gen 3+ Alpha select wg tube and can detect a man at 2.4 kms in 5 lux moon conditions I think,it is the best of anything I have ever seen through and I own some top end stuff ,gen 3+ American tube kite sitex4 ,itt pvs14, thermal weapons scope etc and I know joshes raptor and it will take a huge that which promotes growth and vigour from a great height over any digital scope, try detecting rabbits at 5/600 on open ground, i can. digital comes in to its own on short range ratting , between the lights etc and usable on foxes etc but heavily realise on ir illumination,which can spook animals I have experienced this on a few occasions, you cannot I repeat cannot touch gen3/3+/4 even some gen2/+ tubed equipment let alone a dedicated NV scope like the raptor they are the best on the planet and have been since the early 2000,s and even if they improved it I cannot shoot at the ranges the raptor is capable of which would be well over 600 meters on a fox and around 1km on a man (in combat obviously) best 5 grand I ever spent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sussexsteve Posted June 28, 2014 Report Share Posted June 28, 2014 I agree about the whole IR thing. I have actually used most tubed kit on the market bar a longbow. I recently sold my pvs 14 which was on the back of a zeiss 6x24x56. It was a great bit of kit but I much prefer the drone pro . Of course this is only my preference but used with thermal I dont think I will be changing soon.. Atb Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wsm Posted June 28, 2014 Report Share Posted June 28, 2014 I take your point about cost but no digital on this earth will touch a decent tubed unit, I am abit gob smacked that you think they are equal,we had both out wednesday night. A drone may do the job but an envis on the back of a Sightron will leave it standing an a dedicated gen 3 is just a different league. Compared a G3 unit with the Drone side by side last night and what Dorg says is absolutely spot on The Drone is excellent with a lot of IR but Gen 3 is excellent without and outstanding with it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sussexsteve Posted June 28, 2014 Report Share Posted June 28, 2014 Im not saying gen 3 tubed isnt good. The original quote was that a raptor would make a drone look a joke. I dont agree I think its a great bit of kit for the money. Mind you I dont agree that you get a fair few runners with a 223 either. Atb Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pork chop Posted June 28, 2014 Report Share Posted June 28, 2014 Im not saying gen 3 tubed isnt good. The original quote was that a raptor would make a drone look a joke. I dont agree I think its a great bit of kit for the money. Mind you I dont agree that you get a fair few runners with a 223 either. Atb Steve dont see how a nv sight that can clearly see out to 400y can be classed as a joke.never used gen 3 nv but it looks great kit but at a price.the drones all i need so very happy with it.223 must be one of the most widely used fox rounds and a good one at that ,you can get runners with most cals without good shot placement Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joshmartin8 Posted June 28, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 28, 2014 Im not saying gen 3 tubed isnt good. The original quote was that a raptor would make a drone look a joke. I dont agree I think its a great bit of kit for the money. Mind you I dont agree that you get a fair few runners with a 223 either. Atb Steve Maybe not look a joke! i respect anyone who buys the best they can with the money they can spare and don't knock that, i agree most modern digital equipment is sufficient at seeing your quarry at ranges most of us shoot at, up to 200 and maybe more, maybe not the best picture but capable to identify them some what. I think the comments that the raptor is far superior comes from the fact of the image alone and how the images does not really get worse at distance, MY LAST PIC (the one with the field with the telegraph poles in the second field) - The gateway is 386yards and the first set of telegraph poles is just under 700.. So what limits the raptors is not how far you can see its how far you are capable of shooting lol, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joshmartin8 Posted June 28, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 28, 2014 Sorry i forgot i dint load it up..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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