Shootist Posted January 4, 2014 Report Share Posted January 4, 2014 OK, 30-06 factory round in centre. Fired case from rifle 'A' is on the right. Measures up to about the same measurements as the case on the factory round. Fired case from rifle 'B' is on the left. The case length has remained about right overall but you can see the shoulder has moved forward by about 1/10". At risk of stating the obvious, this doesn't seem right, and it doesn't seem good. So, is this a head space problem? Is rifle 'B' dangerous? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrCetrizine Posted January 4, 2014 Report Share Posted January 4, 2014 *completely unqualified opinion* That looks very dangerous. *completely unqualified opinion* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sonic Posted January 4, 2014 Report Share Posted January 4, 2014 A bit more info may help such as make model of rifle is it military or sporter. Military may explain it as they tend to be larger chambers to allow for muck lack of cleaning etc. But a first look I would say it looks wrong and a good gunsmith would be my next point of call. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiff Posted January 4, 2014 Report Share Posted January 4, 2014 What rifle is 'Rifle B'? If a semi-custom s/h rifle that is new to you, it could always be a wildcat/improved chambering that the proof house have simply marked as 30-06…..it has been known! Are there any signs of bulging or internal marks around the web of the case? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shootist Posted January 4, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 4, 2014 Both old military rifles, submitted as 30-06. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveT Posted January 5, 2014 Report Share Posted January 5, 2014 I am no gunsmith but it looks like the chamber on rifle B is either something other than 30 06 OR it has been reamed FAR too deeply....hence the shoulder has blown forward way too far.........I would not fire ANYTHING in this gun again until it is checked out by a qualified 'smith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbal Posted January 5, 2014 Report Share Posted January 5, 2014 Hi, I would not shoot rifle ,as it is-needs professional diagnosis/cure.Whatever it's chamber might have been once upon a time,it isn't SAAMI 30-06 now (I realise that it is a military rifle)More information would help,maybe-don't take any barrel markings as still valid. If this was a quizz,I'd suggest it might be a 30 Gibbs from sometime after the 1950s. The 30 Gibbs is/was a blown out 30-06 case,steep shoulder angle and short neck,the shoulder having been pushed forward .196 inch compared to standard 30-06,and holding about 7g more powder,about 65 g(IMR 4350). A bit unlikely on a military ex,but if this were so wildcatted ,in USA probably,there would not be corresponding proof marks-and I suspect the Gibbs was fire formed from 30-06,but I have never had the pleasure! It looks like your photo,but that is as far as it may go.'Your" neck looks too short to be an Ackley Improved,which would hold about 59g (IMR 4350)-but you could check powder capacities.Both would remain 30 calibre of course. Gbal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronin Posted January 5, 2014 Report Share Posted January 5, 2014 Id have to ask if both rifles are original, when were A and B manufactured? There were quite a few design changes to the 30-06 before it was standardised and the 30 cal design was adopted by the US military in 1906. Id hazard a guess that A is an earlier version of the 30-06 nothing more sinister than that (if the rifle is original) If its not, it could be that the chamber is reamed too deeply, though I doubt this as the overall length of the case is the same as the original non fired round in the pic. It could be that a custom reamer was used to make the chamber using a shorter neck - if this is the case so long as the bullets are seated touching the lands - effectively forcing the rear of the case against the bolt head, fire forming brass would be relatively easy - its been done in rifle A and shows a decent fire formed case…. I doubt it is a 30 Gibbs, the case shoulders are the wrong angle It isn't a 30 06 AI either - I've built several of these and its also the incorrect shoulder / neck dimensions - from the pics My other thoughts were it could be a 35 Whelen - again the case mouth looks to be the same dimensions as B and factory and again the shoulder angles are wrong. My view is its a early variant of the 30-06 before it became standardised... Though I may be wrong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shootist Posted January 5, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 5, 2014 Thanks for all the replies, which pretty much confirm what I thought. I can't say too much at this point about specifics. Both rifles are standard military bolt actions that are meant to be, and ought to be, 30-06. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronin Posted January 5, 2014 Report Share Posted January 5, 2014 30 Gibbs case example found on the web 30-06 Improved Proof case returned with a rifle I built a while ago Similarities between the two are obvious Nothing like Case A though. i think its a non standard (pre standard) 30-06 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbal Posted January 6, 2014 Report Share Posted January 6, 2014 Thanks for the photos,Andy. As I mentioned,the shoulder angle in Cart A does not look steep enough-30 Gibbs was pub quizz guess... It does seem some kind of 30-06-though I can't see it as a 35 Whelen. That said,the photos seem to me quite different-in the neck length...and the Gibbs one I tracked down eventually-in Barnes-might be intermediate in neck length....maybe it's just the camera angle...and only one ruler...! I'm still not keen to fire it,as is! Gbal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbal Posted January 7, 2014 Report Share Posted January 7, 2014 Some at least of the early "30-06" development went a bit like this: 1901: the 30-01,so called 'thick rim',as it had,yes,a thick rim.... 1903: the 1903-03 had lost the 'thick rim' 1906: the 1903-03 case neck had been reduced about1/10 inch to for the new spitzer bullet,and this was essentially the 'standard' 30-06 Does that help identify Cart A ?? not really! A wildcat '270W',fired in loose head space mil 30-06 chamber-unlikely! Can we assume Cart A is headstamped 30-06 (hopefully with maker too...)? Just one (such) round fired?-I would not suggest firing anymore meanwhile.... until the real explanation emerges...if ever!! Gbal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John MH Posted January 7, 2014 Report Share Posted January 7, 2014 You'd be surprised at the difference between .303 British chambered rifles, as its military contract it may well be in specification, the best way to find out is check it using a set of go, no-go and field headspace gauges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shootist Posted January 7, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 7, 2014 To clarify things a bit, the 'two rifles' are in fact one rifle, re-barrelled (allegedly). The case on the left of my original image is what is coming out of the 'new' barrel, the one on the right the old. It seems to me, but I am awaiting expert opinion, that the 'new' barrel, if indeed one was fitted at all, had had the chamber reamer run in about 1/10" too far. That would mean that the headspace excess wouldn't show up at the rear of the case, but that the shoulder would be fire formed to it's new position1/10" forward. Whether this is dangerous or not is another question I am waiting expert opinion on. Dangerous or not, it renders the brass useable only once, as I will not risk trying to run the used cases through a die in case they jam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John MH Posted January 7, 2014 Report Share Posted January 7, 2014 In that case take it back to the guy who chambered it. I'm assuming it past proof on rebarrelling, I'm not sure if the Proof House use headspace gauges as part of their checks of just try to blow the gun up with a factory round sprayed with WD40 (allegedly). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shootist Posted January 7, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 7, 2014 In that case take it back to the guy who chambered it. I'm assuming it past proof on rebarrelling, I'm not sure if the Proof House use headspace gauges as part of their checks of just try to blow the gun up with a factory round sprayed with WD40 (allegedly). Given the bloke who (allegedly) changed the barrel and made a balls of the chambering is responsible for this, and a few other problems, It ain't going anywhere near him again. But, if anyone reading this has a replacement barrel in good condition for an M1917 in 30-06, give me a call. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveT Posted January 7, 2014 Report Share Posted January 7, 2014 If your comments are irrefutably correct then should he not be 'run out of town' for said screw-up? Again , I am no gunsmith, but reaming that deep is surely amateur stuff....and dangerous?!!! Interesting comment from John re proofing .......how can this get past safety checks?...WAS it even proofed at all when rebarreled? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baldie Posted January 7, 2014 Report Share Posted January 7, 2014 This is a rebarrelled Springfield ? If its been rebarrelled in the UK it has to be proofed unless you are an RFD. If its been proofed, its had go , and no go guages in it as part of the proof test. It could possibly have been passed on a field guage which is 0.004" back past no-go. That will not account for the 1/10" growth however. Look for the proof stamps and ascertain whether Birmingham or London. London marks are simple and have LP and a number which denotes year of proof. Birmingham will say BNP and a motif. Ring the appropriate proof house with the guns serial number and they will tell you all you need to know. Has this gun come from France do you know ? The french [until recently ] were not allowed military calibre's and often ran a reamer in some more on a std barrel to de standardise it. I had a K98 Mauser that was sent to proof here and came back with an elongated case like yours, but in 7x57 mauser [military cartridge ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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