Screwcutting

[njc110381]

I've just been on the phone to a couple of local gun dealers about the .223 I'm after. It doesn't come screwcut so I will have to get it done myself. As I'm going to have a moderator for my 6.5x55 already, is it possible to have a varmint barrel screwcut to 1/2" UNF so I can use the same mod (with a seperate rear bush for the larger barrel)?

[Orka Akinse]

My T8 fits both my 6.5x55 and my .223

 

Sooooo I reckon your good to go.

[charly hunter]

I use my T8 on my 223 & 243 just a quick change of the bush and away you go.

[silentsoulsleave308holes]

just make sure you have a slot for the 6.5 mod and the 223 mod then there is not an issue

 

they class them as part of a firearm so if you get caught using a mod on a rifle thats not permitted to have one you'll be in serious trouble

 

I take it you know all this already but thought I would just mention it for the benefit of others in case they decide to start using a mod they have for one rifle on a rifle they are not permitted to use one

 

you can have they rifle screw cut after it is proofed but you cannot sell the gun on unless you have it re-proofed

 

you can use an un proofed mod on a gun providing you have a slot for it but you cannot sell the mod on unless you have that proofed also

 

however it is a good idea for you to have both proofed so there is no argument

 

I know of gunsmiths that are not fully informed as to the law but what I have said is good to go as far as I understand it

 

I know of a gun smith that Will swear that you cannot use an unproofed mod and that you cannot sell a proofed mod to Joe blogs but let me make this clear in case he is reading this

 

a proofed mod is not a firearm, it does not have a serial number and there is no track-able record of how old, where its been etc only that the proof house have tested it and deemed it safe up to the cal they have stamped it for

 

if it was part of a fire arm or classed as one it must have a serial number to identify it as one

 

there is nothing in writing to say that you could not by a moderator that has a 30cal proof mark on it and not use it on an air rifle

 

how do the police know how many proofed mods or firearms mods are out there???????????????? they don't

 

you could make one yourself out of a fairy washing up bottle though not really a good idea

 

.

.

#

 

njc you could arrange with your local engineering company to take the barreled action only and get them to screw cut it for you though you would have to be present and not leave them with a firearm even if it un-usable

 

you could use the firearm without re-proof but if you wanted to sell the gun then you must send it via your local rfd or arrange for the rfd/gunsmith of your choice to have a courier that they use to pick the gun up

 

you must be there for the handing over of your firearm to the authorized courier and not leave it for the wife to be there for the collection, or you can talk to your local rfd and arrange for the courier to pick it up from them if they are kind

 

most rfd's though will insist on you paying them for the proof and they will arrange it all for you and then they earn a cut on it for there part

 

if I am wrong in any of this then I humbly apologize and would love to know what part is wrong

[eldon]

The only other point to consider besides what silent said......

 

I was advised to keep the barrel diameter as big as possible, so a heavy barrel especially if it is hammer forged like mine is better with say 5/8ths as opposed to 1/2''UNF. Apparently it keeps the accuracy better? probably to do with stress releiving the end by material removal and bellmouthing the bore.

 

I heard of one gunsmith who didn't agree with using 1/2'' on 30 calibre, but obviously this won't affect you in this case.

 

Another option of course is to buy a moderator ( if you haven't got one already) to suit the heavy barrel and machine a threaded collar to step up the smaller barrel to the thread size? make your rear bush up and split it . It would only take seconds to swap the mod then, not that I've seen this done............... but it's maybe possible.

[baldie]

Silent...point me to the part of the proof acts that say a screwcut barrel has to be reproofed?

This is a point put about by the proof houses after the pistol ban, because they lost a huge amount of trade.

Most dealers in the country dont reproof after screwcutting, because there is no legal requirement to do so.

There is also no point of law that says a moderator has to be proofed, regardless of what any police force says. There is no mention of screwcutting or moderators in the proof acts whatsoever, so therefore , no laws governing them exist. Its purely conjecture on the part of the proof houses. They know full well that very few dealers reproof, and they also know full well, they would lose in a court of law, if they tried a prosecution. There have been two rulings on this matter, one from jackson rifles, and the other from the Gunshop at cathill, who the proof houses tried to sue for the above....and lost.

[eldon]

So Baldie are you saying then that my rifle that I screwcut myself, would not need by law to be reproofed if I decided to sell it in the future?

I am not intending selling it but presumed, although I haven't as you say seen it written anywhere, that I could not legally sell it as is.

 

I'm not sure now?

[Redfox]

Baldie has it right.

Redfox

[baldie]

The proof acts state [and i,m reciting this purely from memory] that a barrel must be reproofed if strength or integrity is reduced [or words to that effect] Any engineer would tell you, that cutting a REASONABLE thread on a muzzle, and then screwing on a generally fatter than the original barrel, piece of steel [the moderator] is hardly compromising its integrity.

The court case involving the gunshop, was a 10/22t barrel, that had been counterbored for around 4" and a set of baffles placed INSIDE the barrel, with an end cap, thus making an integral moderator. The proof house prosecuted saying it was a breach of the act, and they lost. So they are hardly likely to win over screwcutting are they?

I dont class a 1/2" thread on a .308 as reasonable, and i,ve seen them reproofed

There is no legal ruling, or law in place on this issue buddy, you have to make of it what you will, but dont take the proof house word for it, they are obviously biased .

I will say again, that the majority of dealers do not reproof.

The proof acts were put in place to protect the shooter....not make people rich, doing unnecessary work, and its high time they were revamped, and brought into the 21st century.

I would say however, that the staff at the london proof house are excellent, very knowledgable, and very helpfull, and they take good care of the rifles sent to them, and we have an excellent working relationship with them.

Birmingham have damaged several guns, including my own , and will get no more.

[onehole]

Bin down this road so many times,swopped bushings,bought/exchanged unproofed mods,sent unproofed mod and rifle through a dealer to have new barrel fitted and then found out dealer wouldn,t let me have unproofed mod back with new barrel til it had been proofed,experienced accuracy problems with 1/2 inch threading on two rifles I have owned,so on and so on!!!!!!!!!

Best way forward believe me is to always have the largest screw cutting possible and done by a reputable machinist/gunsmith.Best not to swop bushings or make mod do a double act as eventually uneven wear could occur at the barrel end shoulder face and moderator threading face and one screwcutting is never the same as that on another rifle. Keep Plod and dealers happy and get it all proofed up regardless of the pain in the ass it is.You can always blame someone else then if it all goes wrong[i think?]Onehole

[Ronin]

I am pretty certain Baldie has it quite right.

 

However,,,,, (there is always a "however")

 

 

 

The Jackson case states that "each case brought to trial, would be judged on its own merit"

 

 

This means that whilst you "can" screwcut your own barrel and sell on because you havent changed the pressure bearing area's integrity, it "may" be that in similar case a judge would find against you.

 

 

 

Difficult area, the more metal you leave on the better, personally, I would get another moderator and opt for the largest thread size possible on the second barrel.

 

Some gunsmiths send their screwcut rifles for proof, some dont.

 

 

As Baldie says maybe now is the time to ammend the Proof Acts so that they are applicable and easy to understand in this age.

[njc110381]

I've found a threaded one now, so that problem is solved (although I'd have to buy another mod!).

 

On another note, i thought if the barrel diameter was reduced it needed a re-proof? Screwcutting reduces the diameter as you don't have to fit a mod to the thread. Not wanting to teach my granny (baldie) to suck eggs mind, I'm a bit out of my depth here

[eldon]

Cheers Baldie, I understand what your saying.

 

That would explain why I bought from a known gunshop a screwcut rifle secondhand with no additional proof marks a few years ago and nothing was mentioned.

 

Have to say the idea of sharing mods can only be viewed as a poor one.

[Ronin]

I hope Peter doesn't mind me pasting the link to his site, but if you read here and councils opinion, all will become clear:

 

http://www.reflexsuppressors.co.uk/

[eldon]

Cheers Andy, although I have been on this site before, I hadn't read this part of it.

 

As is usually the case in law it is all a bit vague and grey.

 

What would be " substantially reduced" then........................14 x1 thread on a 50 BMG :lol:

[baldie]

Its a grey area gents, but as i said before, there is not one law pertaining to it in print. I do know the proof house dont pursue it, as they are already 0ne - nil down.

Its down to the individual i guess, but i will say this, anyone withholding a gun or mod, because it isn,t proofed is on a very sticky whicket indeed, and they would not do it to me.

Dont automatically assume that a threading job hasn,t been proofed, because theres no stamp...both houses REGULARLY forget to stamp them.

[silentsoulsleave308holes]

Silent...point me to the part of the proof acts that say a screw cut barrel has to be reproofed?

This is a point put about by the proof houses after the pistol ban, because they lost a huge amount of trade.

Most dealers in the country dont reproof after screwcutting, because there is no legal requirement to do so.

There is also no point of law that says a moderator has to be proofed, regardless of what any police force says. There is no mention of screwcutting or moderators in the proof acts whatsoever, so therefore , no laws governing them exist. Its purely conjecture on the part of the proof houses. They know full well that very few dealers reproof, and they also know full well, they would lose in a court of law, if they tried a prosecution. There have been two rulings on this matter, one from jackson rifles, and the other from the Gunshop at cathill, who the proof houses tried to sue for the above....and lost.

 

 

 

baldy

 

 

sorry but I didn't say that a mod has to be proofed only that you must have a slot for it

 

every dealer within two hours travel from our area insist on it being proofed whether its a mod or screw cut

 

Devon and Cornwall firearms and rfd's insist on us doing so and if they are wrong then there is sod all we can do coz its how they interpret the law

 

I didn't say I agreed with them but more hinted toward disagreeing with them

 

the proof house may choose to sue from this area and win for all we know, as Ronin said in the Jackson case it was said that each case brought to trial would be dealt with in its own merit

 

I cannot find all the bits where I said it was law this and law that and on going back I can only see that I agree with what you are saying prier to you actually posting

 

your opening post aimed at me in my opinion seemed a little hostile especially after in my post I said "as I understand it" and ended my post "I humbly apologies and would love to know if I am wrong

 

I am sorry if I have misunderstood your response to me and mistook your wording to be hostile, I have just had a that which promotes growth and vigour day and may have read it that way

 

ja

[Ronin]

It would certainly help all of us if there was a definitive ruling.

 

As it stands at the moment there are different schools of thought, both could be right, however this leads those who do not send any screwcutting jobs for proof open to possible litigation from the PH. (although it is unlikely following the two High Court cases unless there is clear evidence that the barrel was weakened by the process) and the analogy of a 1" muzzle diameter reduced to a 1/2" UNF thread on a .30 cal or larger would (IMHO) reduce the integrity of the barrel in this area.

 

What do we do then?

 

Play safe, spend £50 round trip for licenced courier and £30 for proof

 

or

 

Screw cut without proof and in our litigous world run the potential risk of prosecution?

 

 

Difficult one as I can see the argument from both sides of the fence.

 

 

The real question for me would be, what guarantee is there that having a weapon proofed after screwcutting is there that the barrel is safe?

 

Answer - none at all.

 

Same as with any "test", only shows it passed the test on that day at the time it was done, nothing more.

 

Or put another way:

 

Traffic Police vehicle have calibrated speedo's, that are certified accurate. However they have to be checked for accuracy on a daily

 

basis over a measured distance and with calibrated stopwatch.

 

 

Makes you think doesn't it

[baldie]

Silent...your having a bad day mate i wasn,t having a go at you at all. Rather venting my spleen at the large number of dealers, the worst culprit being the huge dealer near you, who use this broccoli to make money.The company in question charge £120 i believe for reproofing of firearms that legally do not need it. immediate proof and transport both ways is around £60 dependant on weight.

As usual the police are making it up as they go along, and until people stand up to them and the proof house, this farce will continue, and money will be made somewhat dubiously.

[Guest farnsworth]

Hi everyone,

 

I have been lurking for a while and reading your posts. This is a very friendly forum. I live in Cornwall and came to shooting late in life. I only shoot rimfire at the moment (rabbits and plinking) but I am looking to start using centrefire rifles for foxing/stalking in due course. I have already gleaned a great deal of useful info here. I am not just saying this so you don't tell be to bugger off!

 

I don't pretend to know anything like as much as you about rifles or hunting but I do know a bit about the law. I will chuck in my two penneth for what its worth.

 

The Gun Barrel Proof Act 1868 is a statute that makes it a criminal offence to sell, pawn etc a firearm which is out of proof or unproved. Criminal prosecutions are not disputes between individuals but between the crown and an individual - the accused. To get a conviction the CPS (or whichever organ of the crown is bringing the prosecution) has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt the accused has offered for sale etc. a firearm of which he or someone else has unduly reduced [the barrel's] substance or strength such as to invalidate the original proof. To prove beyond a reasonable doubt that threading a rifle has unduly reduced its substance and strength would require expert evidence. That is an expert would have to swear on the bible and say that it is almost certain that threading a barrel would invalidate the proof. We have already heard from some experts on this forum that threading a barrel is insignificant both in terms of substance and strength. I doubt if you could find a firearms expert anywhere who would do that.

 

If you need a test case to sort the matter once and for all the best way to get one is to arrange to buy a rifle with newly threaded barrel from a mate and then report him to the Police who will then report the matter to the proof master at London or Birmingham (see Firearms Law Guidance to the Police 2002 (Home Office). Unfortunately, it seems unlikely that there will be much enthusiasm for bringing a prosecution even if you did present such damning evidence as baldy says in his post - they tried it and it didn't work. Prosecutions are expensive.

 

If you were prosecuted you would have to pay a solicitor to represent you in the Magistrate's Court and pay a fine if convicted. While some of us would be prepared to risk this I doubt if any shooter would risk his FAC to prove the point - much less an RFD.

 

The only other way to get the law changed is to lobby Parliament and they have a great record in liberalising the law relating to firearms don't they?

[silentsoulsleave308holes]

hey farnsworth nowt wrong with rimmies, my longets kill with a rim on rabbits was confirmed and whitnessed by a well respected guyand was a wopping 356 yard kill

 

we live in cornwall and shoot together most weekends and you are more than welcome to come play with us bunch of ...........................

 

will leave the others to 'fill you in' we like doin it to fruit

[tulkyuk]

was a wopping 356 yard kill

geez silent, you must have been pointing at the moon to get that shot - well done though

[JR__]

hey farnsworth nowt wrong with rimmies, my longets kill with a rim on rabbits was confirmed and whitnessed by a well respected guyand was a wopping 356 yard kill

 

we live in cornwall and shoot together most weekends and you are more than welcome to come play with us bunch of ...........................

 

will leave the others to 'fill you in' we like doin it to fruit

 

Rabbit probably died of laughter..Whats a cornish yard goin for nowadays, hahahah...j/k jamie..that which promotes growth and vigour does happen. Not that it didn't get struck, but that the stars were aligned for you to hit..I think that one's a given..'well hell yeah I killed it'...

 

JR

[silentsoulsleave308holes]

I had wasted about 30 rounds walking the shotys in at that range when my friend pointed to some rabbits at 200 ish and I missed

 

we talked for a min or two when we both caught sight of two little tombola running around right where I had just wasted ammo finding the max dial and amount of hold over

 

it took just one round after re-dialing and aiming off again to hit it

 

I never thought that it would kill it outright at that range and so ran as fast as my short ass little legs would carry me

 

got there and the round had gone straight through and it was obviously stone dead

[Guest farnsworth]

hey farnsworth nowt wrong with rimmies, my longets kill with a rim on rabbits was confirmed and whitnessed by a well respected guyand was a wopping 356 yard kill

 

we live in cornwall and shoot together most weekends and you are more than welcome to come play with us bunch of ...........................

 

will leave the others to 'fill you in' we like doin it to fruit

 

 

Hi Silent. I am down Falmouth way. Thanks for the invite. I look forward to "doing some fruit with you sometime" - come to think of it I am not really sure what I am signing up for hmmm!

 

Do you belong to any clubs? where do you get your shooting stuff?