your not going to beleive this

[Ronin]

Vim

 

you are going to think me being picky again - what calibre were the bucks shown in the last photographs shot with?

[Guest vim]

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[SteveW]

Lil Gun is the broccoli i can tell thee with the 40g v-max.

About this time last year i brought some Lilgun which showed this wee calibre in a different light.

You see i had no load data for it? So when the primers were getting blown out of the cases i backed off a little. Instead of 17grains i used 16.5g of lilgun

 

Cheers Vim

Thanks V much for that mate, Lilgun is definately top of the shopping list for the weekend What sort of velocity you getting with what barrel length ???

Have to concur on it being a great round

Cheers Steve

[OSOK]

Hi Vim , I shoot around 80-100 foxes within a eight month period and 99% of those are killed with a 220 swift which has a slight advantage over a 22-250 . If you assume that most shots are within 300 yards and you consider elevation and windage then the only way a 243 could compete with a 22-250 or 220 swift would be by shooting 55g or 58g bullets . My point being that i also have a 20BR that shoots the 50g er's which out to 300 yards the performance is identical to my swift using the 52g A-max's BUT after 300 yards the 20BR leaves the swift standing !

Bigun , Craigboy & 20 ppc are all correct , A good 20 cal will kill just as many foxes as any 243 unless at 300 yards you consider 1000 ft/lbs to be more ' more dead ' than 850 ft/lbs .

I assume that the picture is of you with your 243 , so without external turrets you must be using some form of ' hold over ' which again due to the greater elevation drop of a 243 just means its a bigger guess .

I was confused by your coment that said your 221 fireball had killed more foxes than small pox but then you went on to say ' that when you have to get the job done ' you use a 6.5 cal ??????? I thought you said the 243 was the perfect fox round ???????

Also , Do you really go out in ' Gales ' or did you mean a strong breeze ? and who do you have to impress with your 6.5 ?

How can you say that people who you don't know are pretenders , maybe an understanding of ballistics would save you from making the same errors in any future posts .

 

regards

 

OSOK

[taffy]

Vim which one is it then? You say the 243 then the 221 fireball and heaven help us if you're using a 6.5 for foxs in the dark!!!!!! IMHO there is nothing out there that does the job better than the 20BR (40 V-Max B.C. .275 @ 400fps.) It's safe, flat shooting, perfect for fighting the wind in gales and very effective out to 500yds for daylight shots which more than covers all parameters for night time shooting.

If you don't fancy the BR try the 204Ruger or the 20Tac, 20PPC or the 20VarTarg theyll all be very good but the BR is what I would always go for due to the added velocity and heavier bullet.

[bigun]

what do you say to that vim your out numbered told you the 204 is a fair little round ..iv never seen a fox run after being hit with the .204 round but i have many times with the .223.. that little bullet explods rather than going through its chest far safer ,less recoil ,less noise just a good alround rifle

[Guest vim]

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[Alycidon]

So your dedicated fox rifle would be what caliber exactly?.

 

The Fireball is a really nice fox round but the Co efficent of the .22 bullet weight for weight is worse than the 20 caliber. I was very surprised when I was looking to replace my 22.250, I am building a 20BR as a result for shooting 50 grain Bergers. Less drop and less drift than a .22 when shooting the same weight of bullet.

 

Certainly in my neck of the woods you would not get authority for .243 as a dedicated fox only rifle but shooting a light bullet (70/75 gr) they are very effective. I was with a friend who shot one with a 75 grainer last Saturday night, very dead as you would expect. A 6.5 at night on foxes at night would have my FEO getting pretty exited as well mind you I dont doubt they do a really good job with the right bullet. Anyone would be impressed with the results for sure.

 

At the end of the day any of the .20 or .22 calibers will do a good job to 250 yards, maybe 150 with a Hornet. So unless you need to go further than that really it is whatever floats your boat. Everyone I know that has a .243 ( 4 or 5 people) with a fox usage on the ticket say's that it can only be used for foxes whilst stalking deer, so to have one perhaps out of a slip in a truck at night might be asking for problems if you get stopped by a knowledgeable plod. Unlikely I know but I have been stopped in the past on a very quiet lane at 1am following a report of a slow moving light in a field. I had told the control room as well !!.

 

A

[Guest vim]

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[charly hunter]

I must agree with you Vim all the foxes I have ever shot and it's been 1 or 2 I have never shot one past 200yds. so all the ballistics and dialing in has never meant a lot to me, but just lately I have been playing during the day light hours only and on paper I have shot a little further. But after dark I will continue to get them in close where it can be identified properly before the trigger is touched. And anyway I still think it takes more skill to get them in closer

 

I have a 243 and I am allowed to use mine on foxes, I was asked why I want it for foxes as I have a 223 for foxes, and I said if I am out stalking and a fox comes along I can't carry two rifles, so it was passed for shooting foxes, there is nothing to say I can only shoot said fox with it if I am stalking only, so I have used it out lamping on several occasions, and they don't run to far with a 90gr nosler in em'

 

A mate of mine uses a 6.5 x 55 for foxing another uses a 6.5 x 284 and and one even uses a 300wm, they are all pasted for the use of fox control I don't think it matters what cal. you use after dark it all depends weather the land is suitable for it. If land is passed for a cal. then it is passed suitable simple as that, don't matter what time of day it is. It's down to the individual to know his ground and to behave in a safe and proper manner.

[ejg223]

I read so much good things about the 20 cal, if a 223 is ok for 600yds then the 20cal

should more than capable at 1000yds or?

Could also be the missing link that the military are looking for, should have good armour piercing capabilities?

 

I'm just confused, with the great BC's that all are talking about in the 20 cal. The 50gr berger only has .295

what does one do if higher is needed, use a 22 ??

 

We must have some very clever people on here, that are convinced a 20 kills better than a 22 or maybe even a 243??

The only reason these people say that is because foxes don't shoot back!!

Ask the military about the 223, I think they are looking forward to a bullet that makes a bit bigger hole.

They had the experience of being shot back at.

 

all just a fad

 

edi

[OSOK]

Vim , So we all now know that you've killed more foxes with a Fireball but the 243 is the perfect fox round which you've now swapped for a 6.5 cal which you now think is the perfect fox round .

Oh and you go out in Blustery conditions and not 'Gales' and you don't care much for those 'thingies' on top of the scope .

 

All is so much clearer now ........................

 

Still alittle hazy over a few statements you made such as how you think that 90% of shooters are pretenders which would indicate that 90 out of every 100 shooters on this site would be pretenders according to you .

And that bit about when you have to 'impress' or posture in a 'macho' way still puzzles me , guess i'm not articulate enough to grasp your meaning .

 

So to conclude , you don't shoot at any paper , you don't use a chrono to load develope , you have no interest or understanding in ballistics and don't understand how those 'thingies' on top of the scope work ............ That's an impressive Curriculum Vitae !

 

I was pleased to hear that i didn't gain any repect from you as that would be a backward step in my opinion but must agree with one of the earlier posts where you claimed to be an 'Artist' ..................... You truly are a certain type of Artist !

 

Fortunatley i will be at Bisley until Monday so i will be deprived of reading anymore of your drivel .

 

OSOK

[Alycidon]

Yes Vim I know who you are driving at !.

 

For all situations at night and most during daylight a .222 will as we know get the job done just fine, most of my foxes with a lamp are 100 - 140 yards and in daylight not many are over 250 yards, my longest is 294 yards one evening. So for 95% of shots there will not be any problem at all with a triple or anything else much in that sort of area.

 

Having a .243 for deer and fox while stalking is normal, but if stopped at 2am with a lamp on the roof and an unslipped rifle about you are hardly stalking. Fine point I know but it only takes one bright Bobby.

 

The 20BRs ballistic edge only comes into play at over 300 yards, most people will not need it but some like to push the boundries for the sake of it.

 

As for 20s killing better, I don't think anyone said they did but dead is dead and the 20s less drop and less drift than a .22 give it a SLIGHT edge as it is easier to place the bullet where you want it.

 

A

[taffy]

I read so much good things about the 20 cal, if a 223 is ok for 600yds then the 20cal

should more than capable at 1000yds or?

Could also be the missing link that the military are looking for, should have good armour piercing capabilities?

 

I'm just confused, with the great BC's that all are talking about in the 20 cal. The 50gr berger only has .295

what does one do if higher is needed, use a 22 ??

 

We must have some very clever people on here, that are convinced a 20 kills better than a 22 or maybe even a 243??

The only reason these people say that is because foxes don't shoot back!!

Ask the military about the 223, I think they are looking forward to a bullet that makes a bit bigger hole.

They had the experience of being shot back at.

 

all just a fad

 

edi

 

Just a little aside on BC's. For a .224 bullet to match the BC of a 40/50gr 20Cal bullet you would have to use a 224 bullet in excess of 60gr. This is not normally what the 224 boys are using, usually 52 and 55 grainers because they want a minimum velocity of about 3600fps>

The 60gr FMJ .223 military round is about on a par with the 20cal but carries more terminal energy, which is what they want.

I don't think the 20's are ready for 1000yd shooting just yet as we need a slightly heavier bullet, 55/60gr in an A-Max or VLD. When that happens then we really will have an interesting calibre. Also don't forget what the parent case is,--- 6BR Lapua!

[taffy]

Many Thanks Vim for enlightening us with your opinion. The trouble with arseholes is that some have bigger ones than others!

Like OSOK I account for a steady 90-100 foxs per annum and to insinuate that anyone who does not subscribe to your criteria are 'Pretenders' is frankly insulting!

FYI, thingies are called turrets and it's what we pretenders use to dial in on a given range when we need to make an accurate and precise shot, either in daylight or at night. At shots at long range the shooter must eliminate as many variables as possible concerning elevation and wind. Having a guess doesn't really do it...

Long shots in the dark do happen (300yds plus). At that distance Charlie is hardly ever in a hurry so the time taken to dial in the elev and windage is vital to make the best attempt of making a clean kill. Time spent load developing with a chrono will enable the shooter to have charts or better still aTAS in his arsenal so that shot is very doable ( best shot thus far 427yds 5mph 1/4 value.)

Practice on paper is also necessary, even for us pretenders. 'Train hard, shoot easy.) Also holes in paper don't tell lies, perhaps that's why you don't bother..

My apologies to other 'Pretenders' out there, but the gibberish that Vim writes on the subject of calibres and ballistics leaves allot to be desired, and perhaps would be better kept to himself, but hey ho we've all got arseholes!

[bigun]

" Bob they`ve found out how square looking your bungee head is so now there having a pop at me now

 

dont get too stressed vim you can handle them ..

[SteveW]

Just a little aside on BC's. For a .224 bullet to match the BC of a 40/50gr 20Cal bullet you would have to use a 224 bullet in excess of 60gr. This is not normally what the 224 boys are using, usually 52 and 55 grainers because they want a minimum velocity of about 3600fps>

The 60gr FMJ .223 military round is about on a par with the 20cal but carries more terminal energy, which is what they want.

I don't think the 20's are ready for 1000yd shooting just yet as we need a slightly heavier bullet, 55/60gr in an A-Max or VLD. When that happens then we really will have an interesting calibre. Also don't forget what the parent case is,--- 6BR Lapua!

 

 

HI Taffy

I disagree ( Just to be fashionable, ) I shoot a JLK 52g with a BC of approx. 309 depending on the usual

[taffy]

HI Taffy

I disagree ( Just to be fashionable, ) I shoot a JLK 52g with a BC of approx. 309 depending on the usual

I concur, but it is a JLK!

[Alycidon]

20s are certainly not ready for 1000 yards, a bigger pill with a faster twist (1 in 7.5 or so )would be needed but these are in development accross the water. Even the wonderfully optimistic Todd Kindler only says the 50gr Berger in a BR case is good for 800 yards. I cant see that myself but a small target such as a crow/rabbit etc might well be in deep trouble at 600 yards.

 

A

[Guest vim]

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[charly hunter]

It seems I know nothing compared to the mighty Vim, I am 1% of your pretenders, although I shoot night and day, rain or shine, I am not worthy because I shoot on a range to check my zero and to shoot a few groups when testing some loads. I wish that I could find a rifle that would shoot so well with factory rounds that I wouldn't have to re-load, I guess when I have all the now how of a ******************* I will be able to point my rifle at anything with off the shelf rounds and kill it every time, until then I shall strive to be a pretender. Might I add, I shall be a happy pretender.

[Guest wireviz]

For me the perfect long range fox rifle would be the 22.250 .The smaller caliber just cant cut it. The 204 can be ok but dose have its limitation and i feel big guns got it because he not aloud anything else.But if hes a good big boy he might get a real gun later in life.

[Guest vim]

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[kip270]

OK Guy's lets keep things civil

[bigun]

police did offer me a .243 for deer insted of the .204 but i told the police i wanted to kill foxs not deer and i had already paid for the .204 and knowing the police they would not give me a .243 just for foxs and if i did go down that road for deer it would be a 7mm rem mag as the .243 leaves a mess that iv seen ..im now putting in for the 7mm rem mag which will take time but im in no rush for it really ,i do have deer waiting to die but they can wait a little bit longer