Helical Howa

[Vermincinerator]

Pete,

You are your own worst enemy mate once again you have posted a long list of set backs that we have all heard before.

I am sure that the guys would like to see some of your new stuff but please refrain from the endless excuses its getting very boring mate.

 

Colin and Tikka 260,

The same applies to you as well we have heard your grievances time and time again and there was no need to bring them up again, its getting extremely tedious

Please keep your differences away from the open forum and settle your grievances elsewhere.

 

Ian

[col48]

Pete,

You are your own worst enemy mate once again you have posted a long list of set backs that we have all heard before.

I am sure that the guys would like to see some of your new stuff but please refrain from the endless excuses its getting very boring mate.

 

Colin and Tikka 260,

The same applies to you as well we have heard your grievances time and time again and there was no need to bring them up again, its getting extremely tedious

Please keep your differences away from the open forum and settle your grievances elsewhere.

 

Ian

 

hi Ian

 

i was not aware i was starting anything, but i felt i should point out i did not have the rifle for 3 months.

i have my rifles back from Pete L

and was offering my services for free to anyone from this site who may be waiting for there rifle(there may be none)

but if that has offended anyone please delete my posts

ATB

Colin

[Vermincinerator]

Colin,

I am not suggesting that you or tikka 260 are trying to start something, what i am saying is that all this has already been aired before as has your offer of using your services which is very generous gesture but it does not need to be posted again, we have seen it all previously.

Thankyou.

 

Ian.

[devilishdave]

Looks good, good luck with the new venture.

 

Dave

[Tikka 260]

My apologies to all concerned, I had no intention of reopening old wounds.

 

All of the inaccuracies stated above are of no consequence whatsoever, and as I said "ENDEX"

 

The sooner this whole disastrous error of judgement on my part is put to bed, the better for all concerned, and lets move on .

 

Please rest assured that there is no 'vendetta' involved.

 

Caveat Emptor!

 

T260

[JR__]

Pete,

 

Your fluting is in the wrong direction..It's going to counter the rifling twist and the bullet will just disintegrate on ignition..hah..

 

CAD is pretty cool eh, got an idea draw it and 3d model it..Working with a few CAD/CAM programs at work, and design programme at home here..Could see it being dangerous for you, hahah..Those 4th axis machines are handy as well. You never realise how handy until you have one..What is it programmed in?

 

Catch ya later

 

JR

[JR__]

t260,

 

I'm going to use you and DeltaV as an example as to what I personally would have done as a custom smith dealing with the UK customers to help negate complaints online about my service.

 

One, when we had the initial conversation, it would have been made clear that any delivery dates will be quoted as verbal and subject to change. Any changes made by you, the customer, would be reflected in the all ready non existent delivery date.

 

Two, though I would be quite courteous, it would be made crystal clear that any discussion on this project directly would be best dealt with thru me. That basically means not a public forum. If you needed extra help deciding what to get, you should have done so before you ordered. Now it's between you and me.

 

Three, I would make it clear that it's a two way street, I too can cancel the rifle order without warning, for reasons why and whenever I so choose. Any work done to the original rifle will be charged as per, if I bedded the rifle, you will be charged for the materials and labour. If so much work had been done and you cancelled at the end, you would be charged for my time involved, I would not be buying you a replacement rifle, and you would still be billed for my time. Better deal with me one on one on your rifle project. Not a public forum. Not in it for the thrill or the accolades, in it for your hard earned money to keep my ho's fartin thru silk, and if I notice you are a customer who is going to cost me future customers and their hard earned money, you're history mate, on your bike. I do enjoy taking a project to completion, and having the customer fully satisfied with the work. That is half what keeps me going.

 

I think people forget that smiths aren't out to f' anyone over on later delivery schedules. Prices may vary, but they don't get paid in full until the job is completed. So it's a hit in the goolies when it takes longer than planned to get the customer rifle out the door. Appreciate that fact and you'll be halfway there.

 

Now when a customer deals with me directly and in confidence, I appreciate that and try to return that favour. In fact, I try to keep the communication line as open as possible. There's a few board members here who can probably attest to that, I dealt with a few of the customer service issues at Border on my time and not Borders. But don't be bringing this stuff to public to allow others to base an opinion via limited knowledge of the rifle build we discussed. You should be dealing with the guy building the rifle only.

 

As I said, it's a two way street. Harder for those who are trying to get the recognition in the game, than for one who is established and has played the game for a while. But my theory is I'm providing a service one may desire and pay me money to do so. There are two parts to the custom build equation, the customer and the builder. Anything else is a 3d wheel, your mate that hangs around when youre trying to chat up a swedish supermodel...Just makes the job that much harder to accomplish, so the 3d wheel is out. Otherwise at the end of the day, all you're going to do is piss off the model with his incessant nonsense, and you'll be going home w/o the girl left to diddle yourself.

 

So all you guys out in the wings ready to pounce on another gunsmith, whether it be DeltaV, Col48, or any other gunsmiths on this forum, take into account that if there is a complaint on your personal build you take to the masses instead of the smith you are only screwing yourself. I tend to screw first, before it gets messy...But in courteous and prompt fashion. I'll get it done. And you'll be chuffed to bits.

 

This should almost be a sticky.

 

And I urge the moderators, do NOT lock this thread, not yet. There are lessons to be learned from both sides of the coin, and if it's to be recurring problem I'd rather it be dealt with than shoved under the carpet.

 

JR

[JR__]

Man, now I'm real fired up. No range time this morning, bloody monsoons..At least there's a gun show today..

 

Bottom line is, when you feel the need to pipe up on a public forum about a ongoing rifle project, keep it positive and very brief. Pay a little respect to the custom builder, especially if he frequents the site, remember there are hundreds of pairs of eyes viewing one side of the story, a story which is no ones business but your's and the smith's, and your pipsqueak blathering may do a hell of a lot more damage than you may have considered prior to your response..It's just common decency, eh. You put a builder into a situation he feels needs to defend his business publicly, that's just not right. That isnt what these forums are for, this isn't bleeding Watchdog starring you as Anne Robinson. With me, you would have lost my trust and respect right then and there, and that's a shame, because the whole custom build is an experience in itself. Now I'd have to consider whether to work on ASSHOLE's gun or send it back to you as original.

 

That goes for the smith as well. There is no need to discuss the details of ongoing customer rifle projects, whether it may relevant to a complaint or not. Rise above that, honest men disagree and children argue publicly. Get in touch with the customer personally to sort it out. Do not engage in a public setting, it's not good business.

 

And other smiths should respect each other's space when on public forums with one another. Col, this isn't the place for you to extend a helping hand the way you did. You do that by PM or email, phone or fax, or by letter, not out in the open. And as gracious as the help may be, free of charge or whatever, is completely disrespectful and tasteless. You don't promote your business by bringing another down. Use some common sense.

 

Probably a lot of UK folk glad to see I'm not setting up on my own in their back yard, the uppety delightful chap Yank telling us whats right and what's not, he'd never get much business with that attitude. I call a spade a spade, and still get christmas cards from customers dealt with 12 years ago. I am a hard ass, but am fair. I expect common courtesy of the customer as he expects good work from me. I will fight tooth and nail to ensure the customer gets what he paid for, but will also fight just as hard for my business in general. Don't ever lose that one to one relationship, trust and respect is key to an enjoyable experience.

 

After you receive the rifle and it's paid for, complain all you like.

 

JR

[col48]

And other smiths should respect each other's space when on public forums with one another. Col, this isn't the place for you to extend a helping hand the way you did. You do that by PM or email, phone or fax, or by letter, not out in the open. And as gracious as the help may be, free of charge or whatever, is completely disrespectful and tasteless. You don't promote your business by bringing another down. Use some common sense.

 

Probably a lot of UK folk glad to see I'm not setting up on my own in their back yard, the uppety delightful chap Yank telling us whats right and what's not, he'd never get much business with that attitude. I call a spade a spade, and still get christmas cards from customers dealt with 12 years ago. I am a hard ass, but am fair. I expect common courtesy of the customer as he expects good work from me. I will fight tooth and nail to ensure the customer gets what he paid for, but will also fight just as hard for my business in general. Don't ever lose that one to one relationship, trust and respect is key to an enjoyable experience.

 

After you receive the rifle and it's paid for, complain all you like.

 

JR

 

Right JR

 

maybe you should take note of your own advise, and take it to the phone or to pm???? seems like you have said this is the decent thing to do, o well do as i say not as i do springs to mind.

 

as for my offer of help this was aimed at Pete L as well has any of his customers, as our paperwork is in place, from previous transactions.

but i can use my time better if the offer is out of order,like earning myself some cash,it really is no skin of my nose.

i shall think twice before i offer my time and services for free,as it seems you get that which promotes growth and vigour for offering a helping hand.

 

 

and one final point,

as flattering as it is, i am not a smith, by name or by trade. i offer a service to others,some services i charge for, some i don't.

the one in question i was offering for free.

sorry it has upset so many.

 

i was not going to respond to this post again but i thought i should Clare a few points up.

 

ATB

Colin

[JR__]

Col,

 

You saying pot calling kettle black? Sorry man, but there is a lot of you that need some good ol fashioned advice thrown at you, in that wide open public forum space youse all seem to enjoy hiding behind. I'm making a broad general statement, so pay attention.

 

I'm coming from this from an angle of someone who has a bit of experience in this game, and am pretty good at. Some would say one of the best. So heed my advice. I got no advice on how to drive a cab, but mate I've dealt with more custom in the gun world on a one to one basis than you may ever. This is the sort of that which promotes growth and vigour I know.

 

I do know how to help keep this sort of nonsense from bubbling to the top before it hits shitstorm level. In your case, no you aren't a smith, and many would probably be surprised at that, you don't mention that much. But you do provide a service to the custom rife community. Whether you have paperwork in place or not, what you implied isn't kosher. You get in touch with the smith, and figure it out with him personally, not thru forums, whether he would consider to sub some of the work to you. You don't make a public statement that 'hey man, I can help you customers out'(paraphrasing of course)..Looks like you peddling on the corner for scraps, buskin for business, it's a cheap shot whether intended or not.

 

JR

[Tikka 260]

Moderator

 

I have already apologized for stirring this post up, now may we please either lock it or delete it to avoid any further discussion by people who do NOT have the facts.

 

I am utterly weary of this matter and counsel from 3rd Parties at this stage is really not helpful .

 

Thanks

 

T260

[JR__]

I say leave it open for discussion. T260, definitely not a personal thing here, am just using your case as an example of how one should go about the custom build experience, privately and not necessarily publicly on an open forum. Please don't take offense. This has happened so many times in the past, and it will happen in the future, but if it's uup for discussion long enough maybe we can all understand where the line is drawn. And what that custom experience should be. Most people buy their guns off of racks, ready to go..They have no idea what it takes to make the rifle personal..Just as well give them a heads up.

 

JR

[skany]

Hi Guys

 

Keeping in mind that i have a custom build about to begin as such from my own sourced parts!

 

I can see why gun builders dont want "dirty laundry"aired in public & i know some truths proberly get bent by both partys when things go a little pair shaped!

 

But from a customer point of view I would want to hear about it so i can make my mind up who gets my work!

 

IF things take longer due to unforseen circumstances & the customer is aware & a new date is reached & stuck to then great but u hear stories of things taking months/weeks/years & your just not going to use them!

 

cheers Andy

[col48]

Col,

 

You saying pot calling kettle black? Sorry man, but there is a lot of you that need some good ol fashioned advice thrown at you, in that wide open public forum space youse all seem to enjoy hiding behind. I'm making a broad general statement, so pay attention.

 

I'm coming from this from an angle of someone who has a bit of experience in this game, and am pretty good at. Some would say one of the best. So heed my advice. I got no advice on how to drive a cab, but mate I've dealt with more custom in the gun world on a one to one basis than you may ever. This is the sort of that which promotes growth and vigour I know.

 

I do know how to help keep this sort of nonsense from bubbling to the top before it hits shitstorm level. In your case, no you aren't a smith, and many would probably be surprised at that, you don't mention that much. But you do provide a service to the custom rife community. Whether you have paperwork in place or not, what you implied isn't kosher. You get in touch with the smith, and figure it out with him personally, not thru forums, whether he would consider to sub some of the work to you. You don't make a public statement that 'hey man, I can help you customers out'(paraphrasing of course)..Looks like you peddling on the corner for scraps, buskin for business, it's a cheap shot whether intended or not.

 

JR

JR

when you have done blowing your own trumpet,

you are not the only one that deals with the public, i think i do it on a day to day basis, but i will leave the trumpet blowing for others,

i have not all ways been a taxi driver.

i have never passed myself of as a smith, and it has been mentioned on here and other forums loads of times. in fact you must be one of the only ones that was not aware. but i guess thats my fault as well.

as for a cheap shot buskin for business, please how the hell is offering a service for free buskin for work.???

have you got the wrong end of the stick JR???

as i was offering to except delivery of any rifles for any members on here, and forward them on to a RFD or deliver them to them in person. for free. full stop (customer pays Post only if used.)

i was not offering to do any work,subcontract,or anything.

i will stand back now as the trumpets will surly sound.

 

ATB

Colin

[Guest northernchris]

Ear muffs on Incomeing from over the pond

[JR__]

Col,

 

Nice try, but I don't play trumpet. Big hammer I'm pretty good with.

 

Free or not, you're interfering. Until Pete said himself he would run rifles thru you as RFD, your comments would be unneccessary in the public domain. You just don't quite get it do you.

 

Keep the customer/builder in a one to one relationship and it will work out. Get Joe Public involved, it will never work. Once that line is crossed, it is destined to fail. too many cooks..

 

JR

[londonhunter]

Hi all I am relatively new here

 

I am a customer of PL of R P. I read all theses threads and comments so I thought I will post a short thread to illustrate my experience.

 

I order a custom bolt rifle from Pete about 10 months ago and he text me 02 days ago stating it has been shipped.

 

During the build I did change the specification a few times and he has always given me excellent advice. I went boar shooting in Germany in January this year and Pete drove a 800 miles return journey with his family to meet me at the forest and presented me with a 90% FINISHED RIFLE.

 

I did NOT get a shot of practice and went on a driven stand immediately.

 

He provided me with ammo which he zero the rifle with

 

I shot 03 roe deers within the first 07 minutes and 02 boars later that afternoon and a fox to finish off the day!!

 

I cannot imagine any other top smith doing that for a customer.

 

He then took the rilfe from me and finished off the rifle and with minor adjustments which I wanted and sold me a Schmidt scope at a price nobody else in UK can match.

 

To be honest Peter thanks a lot. It has been a long time since I ordered the rifle but it shot bloody straight out of the box and handled as best as anything I have shot. BTW it is a 9.3 x 62 but originally it was a 9.3 RSM

 

If you are reading this Peter you did not know this but I actually ordered 03 other rifles at the same time last year.

 

a F class rifle from Peter Walker which I still have not received to date.

02 rifles from a smith in Norfolf, suffolk which did not feed well and shot average

 

I would say on the whole Pete is an excellent gun smith with average waiting time and a dam poor customer relationship manager. If you stand back a bit

he is not charging a lot for his service and he is given us an excellent product.

 

I started rifle shooting 02 years ago and now I have 14 custom rifles of various configuration and purposes. I would rate peter in the top 05 for quality and top for price but bottom for custom services. I have byrant rifles from USA Lilja from states and Robinsons rifles from Canada and they are all about the same lead time

 

Peter

 

Please confirm my order for a 416 Rigby for my Namibia trip in August and please expedite my friend's order for the cheytec 408 I will seriously consider another rifle in practical 20 or tactical 20 now that cases are available for a prarie dog hunt in the states

 

londonhunter

 

also to confirm I have no ties with P L or R P at all and I am not in the gun trade just a keen hunter and I compete in trap internationally

[col48]

Col,

 

Nice try, but I don't play trumpet. Big hammer I'm pretty good with.

 

Free or not, you're interfering. Until Pete said himself he would run rifles thru you as RFD, your comments would be unneccessary in the public domain. You just don't quite get it do you.

 

Keep the customer/builder in a one to one relationship and it will work out. Get Joe Public involved, it will never work. Once that line is crossed, it is destined to fail. too many cooks..

 

JR

 

JR

it was not a try believe me.i was very Conservative with my post.

i think you are the one that don't quit get it, you are to busy with your own fanfare to see it was a helping had to anyone who has a rifle over there,and is struggling getting it back over here.as shipping is becoming a night mare

and whether you think i am interfering or not,matters not to me, as you are not as important as you think or keep telling us you are.

 

I'm coming from this from an angle of someone who has a bit of experience in this game, and am pretty good at. Some would say one of the best. So heed my advice. I got no advice on how to drive a cab, but mate I've dealt with more custom in the gun world on a one to one basis than you may ever. This is the sort of that which promotes growth and vigour I know.

you know i was waiting for a speech like, i have a dream (martin Luther king) or we will fight them on the beaches (Winston Churchill )

but no what did we get

 

I do know how to help keep this sort of nonsense from bubbling to the top before it hits shitstorm level. In your case, no you aren't a smith, and many would probably be surprised at that, you don't mention that much. But you do provide a service to the custom rife community. Whether you have paperwork in place or not, what you implied isn't kosher. You get in touch with the smith, and figure it out with him personally, not thru forums, whether he would consider to sub some of the work to you. You don't make a public statement that 'hey man, I can help you customers out'(paraphrasing of course)..Looks like you peddling on the corner for scraps, buskin for business, it's a cheap shot whether intended or not.

 

is that the that which promotes growth and vigour you know, how many years in the trade do i have do to get to that level

please give me a brake, go and preach your i am better than you to some one else,

keep your customer informed at all times (if your customer has to ring you and ask then you have failed him)

don't lie to the customer

don't use others company's as excuses

if you drop a bollock hold your hands up in the air and say it was my fault.

answer the phone when someone rings you,(give everyone set times to ring you IE between xxx and xxx )

if build speck is changed then tell the customer the lead time will be xxx more

order all the parts as soon as deposit arrives, then they are on the shelf, and ready to be fitted (don order them for when you think you will need them, get them on the shelf. it ain't your cash to use for other stuff)

if you are all ready struggling to keep your customers happy,and have massive waiting times, stop taking work on. its the only way to catch up.(get your backlog down to a manageable level, before even considering more work)

thats the kinda that which promotes growth and vigour i know and iv been in the game 2 minuets

 

ATB

Colin

[Guest sako]

I really didn't want to get into any of this thread, but feel I owe it to others.

I can see tikka 260's frustration as I have been through the same sort of timescale issue. The important thing for me is that as a customer you need to be kept up to date as to what's happening with your rifle and I wasn't. A simple re-barrelling, bedding, action blue-printing and screw-threading took 13 months instead of the 10 weeks I was quoted. I had to do all the chasing up and all the contact came by me initialising it. This is something that many of PL's customers will know about. I don't want to open old wounds and tell you the ins and outs. It's all been done before on this forum. I have been in touch with PL through the lengthy process and he knows his customer service wasn't up to scratch. From a customer who was getting frustrated with the length of time it took to get his rifle back, all I can advice PL is to get previous customers rifles done before promoting new products. Before PL gets into the ins and outs of my rifle - yes I did receive items as compensation for my long wait. My advice to you PL would be to avoid using this forum until all your existing customers are satisfied and that would then avoid all the comments that have quite literally been done to death on this forum.

I have dealt with col48 and he has helped me in lots of ways and he offered to receive my rifle for me, using his paperwork to speed up the process, etc, although in the end, I received my rifle. The niggles I've got with my rifle, he's helped to sort them out, with prices and timeframes sorted out throughout. As far as I'm concerned, any offer of help should be gratefully received, not thrown back in your face. If you were waiting on a rifle that should only have been gone a short time and you've been waiting for a year, you will accept offers of help, whether others who have not been in the same situation agree with that or not.

To me, col48 is very good to deal with - he's upfront and honest, gives you the right information, very helpful and keeps you informed.

I do not want to receive PMs about the issues with my rifle - the subject is closed.

Regular members on this forum have their opinions which they are entitiled to share - however, when I joined this site, which I had hoped would be an information sharing site, little did I know how petty and back-biting it could get. I don't find this on the US sites.

Forums should be a place where you can get information, relating to you and your rifle, shooting, etc. It should form as a register to pass on people's recommendations as well as those to avoid.

[DeltaV]

Oh dear what a that which promotes growth and vigour storm again.

 

anyhow, before we all get our heads up our rears..

 

1. I am the 1st to admit that my customer service over the last year or so has not been what it should have been. It doesn't suit me either, we all know the reasons why. Its was the best i could provide under the circumstances and i above all others wish it could have been better. I do think credit where credit is due, i have taken the huge step and left a secure, high profile, well paid career in the Space Industry to run the Rifle Business full time. one step after another is bieng taken to improve contactability, as those who have treid to contact me lately will know, new shop phone number on a land line (and no longer the mobile that didn't have a signal half the time) ive even got a hands free head set so i can phone and use my hands at the same time. New website with better info, web shop, staff brought in to help get the fulltime business organised etc. so i / we are definately on the right track and things are getting better. so watch this space...

 

2. I think it is unrealistic to expect a rifle smith to give periodical updates on build progress, he has better things to do with his time than to sit down at the pc once a months and write to customers with an update, especialy when perhaps for 6 to 9 months, depending on parts source, nothing what so ever will have happened. The customer should call or email occasionaly sure, but should not expect periodical updates, trust that the riflesmith is doing all he can to get the rifle done on time and when its finnished he will let you know because he wants his last payment.

 

3. what i have learned however, is that the riflesmith absolutely needs to hassle the suppliers at every opertunity. I worked long enough on the proviso that the customer trusts me to get on and build the rifle, and i trust the supplier to get on and deliver. Unfortunately, instances of 14month late action deliveries, 12 months waits for stocks that where unusable when the turned up etc have been a constant battle. To this end, more and more i am leaning to having production carried out localy by firms where i can litteraly go and knock on the door.

 

As for promoting new products, well the ball has to be kept rolling, a business is an ongoing venture and a half hour here and there to introduce new ideas and products do keep the ball rolling is well worth the time. There is so much more to running a custom rifle business than just stood at the lathe and bench assembling rifles. and new products, own manufacture, quick delivery are a benefit to the whole industry.

No one is perfect and i am far from it, but credit where credit is due, ive taken the problems and issues of the last 18months onboard and am working very hard to evolve, improve and come out on top.

So perhaps we should look forwards and not backwards. pat me on the back when i do something right, a friendly word of advice or constructive chritisism is always, always welcome. I aren't content to sit on my arse and say thats the way the gun trade is,, no I'm getting on with it, improving service, introducing products tackling supply issuesand working very hard to achieve a goal that is of benefit to us all. I aint trying to get rich quick, i aint trying to rip anyone off. I'm trying to do a good job, sometimes i manage sometimes i dont, but i'm working at it. Rome. a Custom Rifle and a Successfull Precision Rifle Business weren't built in a day.. but like i said, I'm working on it.

 

Pete

[londonhunter]

Well said Pete

 

Will call you less so you can get on with it....................HAH

 

Londonhunter

[ds1]

No dog in this fight, but whilst no one else mentioned it - why not have a formal written contract between buyer and smith. This would offer protection to both parties - eg what happens if either partie dies, how would a smith get his cash (must keep JR`s ho`s in silk) and how would a buyer get his / her prized stick finished or funds refunded. It would be easy to list completion deadlines and payment deadlines.

 

It seems normal with most other services to have a contact - how many procurement orders are placed without a contract? Verbal contracts are next to worthless.

 

A forward thinking smith could have a standard draft contract - and offer a feeling of security to both sides. Eg. I placed an order with a US optical company - got an invoice and spec sheet for the products with a delivery date by return of email - even if the date is overun a bit it still provides a feeling of security.......funny what a difference a piece of paper can make.

 

David.

[JR__]

Definitely DS, to have an agreement in writing between the two parties is a good thing to have. Clears up a lot of future hoo-ha. You just have a standard form in company letterhead made up in triplicate which breaks the rifle work down into each part, like stock action trigger barrel mounts sights, etc what you have to source and what you don't, date the eta of the parts sourced, and expected finish schedule. write the order out, send it off to customer to sign, he returns it, send back a copy for his records. Gives both sides peace of mind, and there is a hard record of the agreement rather than verbal and/or emails-faxes-texts back and forth. I personally prefer the paperwork, everything written down, as it makes it easier for myself to organise the work schedule and purchasing requisitions. And I guess a business can set his terms however best suits his business, which I suppose could be printed on the back of the form, and the customers signature would be recognising those terms. Start date on the rifle wouldn't begin until form is returned signed. That's always been the right way to go in my mind anyhow.

 

JR

[DeltaV]

And that is exactly how I'm doing it these days.

Order form detailing the agreed rifle buils spec.

Customer fills in details for contact addy-nr etc. signs on the dotted line. he/she gets a copy, I have a copy.

terms and conditions are read and accepted before signing.

 

Like i said, steps in the right direction.

 

I never claimed to be a burocrat or businesman, I'm a riflesmith, and learning to me a burocrat/businesman has proven to be an interesting learning experience. Be hard with suppliers and mollycoddle customers is definately a lesson learned.

 

Pete