1000 Yard BR - Running the Gun

[mole-e30]

Hi All

 

Gary S got this video of me shooting a 6BR yesterday at Diggle in the 1000 yard BR comp.

 

Vince suggested I share it with you all so that anyone unfamiliar with long range BR could see what it is about.

 

Please click on the link below, the shooting starts with the first shot at 5 seconds and the last goes at 20 seconds, the group measured 7 inches.

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/2fqte1k7hxmunud/Bruce%20L%201000BR%205th%20May%202013.3gp

 

The wind was strong and gusty (I had 7 MOA of windage on) and I was running a Winchester Mod70 action smithed by Vince, it is one of the nicest rifles I have shot, slick and easy to shoot due to its light recoil.

 

The advice I was given by Vince et al a while ago was shoot quick, keep your head down and you might beat the wind.

 

Vince, you can add your comments from here.

 

Cheers

 

Bruce

[Laurie]

Good one Bruce!

 

Good to see my old 'Pig's Ear' continues to perform - it certainly wouldn't do 7-inches at 1K in its original .243WSSM Winchester 70 Stealth existence before Vince performed his magic - maybe at 200 yards!

 

(For those wondering about the porcine reference, Vince wrote the rebuild up under the title of "Making a Silk purse out of a Sow's Ear" in the final edition of the old 'Target Sports' magazine before it fell into the 'Sporting Rifle' darkside.)

[6mmBR]

I'm not sure about this 1000 yard bench rest and please I'm not trying to be rude.

Perhaps someone could enlighten me a little about the name of the game?

I can see its down to to an accurate rifle in the end. So is the skill element down to a man who can load and fire his gun as fast and as smoothly as possible?

As from what was said you try to beat the wind? So there must be a huge element of luck involved then?

Just interested.

Cheers

Dave

[gbal]

I'm not sure about this 1000 yard bench rest and please I'm not trying to be rude.

Perhaps someone could enlighten me a little about the name of the game?

I can see its down to to an accurate rifle in the end. So is the skill element down to a man who can load and fire his gun as fast and as smoothly as possible?

As from what was said you try to beat the wind? So there must be a huge element of luck involved then?

Just interested.

Cheers

Dave

 

You need precision equipment.

You need to read the wind very well.

You need to accept an element of luck.

The more you practice,the luckier you get....!!

 

Gbal

 

 

 

The more you practice the luckier you get!

[brown dog]

Hi All

 

Gary S got this video of me shooting a 6BR yesterday at Diggle in the 1000 yard BR comp.

 

Vince suggested I share it with you all so that anyone unfamiliar with long range BR could see what it is about.

 

Please click on the link below, the shooting starts with the first shot at 5 seconds and the last goes at 20 seconds, the group measured 7 inches.

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/2fqte1k7hxmunud/Bruce%20L%201000BR%205th%20May%202013.3gp

 

The wind was strong and gusty (I had 7 MOA of windage on) and I was running a Winchester Mod70 action smithed by Vince, it is one of the nicest rifles I have shot, slick and easy to shoot due to its light recoil.

 

The advice I was given by Vince et al a while ago was shoot quick, keep your head down and you might beat the wind.

 

Vince, you can add your comments from here.

 

Cheers

 

Bruce

 

Wow! Thanks for the vid. Looks like a field gun doing 5rds Fire For Effect with a human recuperator!

[gbal]

Wow! Thanks for the vid. Looks like a field gun doing 5rds FFE with a human recuperator!

 

Is the recuperator engaging?

 

Gbal

[mole-e30]

Hi Dave

 

As Gbal pointed out the key things with 600 or 1000 yard BR are......

 

1. A well set up gun that tracks well in the bags and is slick, so when you run it fast the motion of opening the bolt etc doesnt disrupt the setup.

2. A good load that is accurate and repeatable.

3. The ability to be able to read the wind quickly.

 

I shoot with both eyes open, right eye looking down the scope to aim and my left eye keeping a track on the flags.

 

I NEVER shoot at the same time as the guy next to me as I dont want their muzzle blast disrupting my bullet's flight. I know that if I can do 5 in 15 seconds, then I am watching the wind to get a steady patch of that time to get my shots down range.

 

Yes there is an element of luck, if the wind changes during your string, do you hold off, wait or just keep going??? Only you can make that call, personally I just keep going unless it is a massive shift as you are unlikely to get the same condition twice, so best to just carry on.

 

There is a downside to speed......... you get carried away and dont aim properly etc, so thats why it must be 5 well aimed shots etc, not bashing the bag, same hold or free recoil etc each time.

 

Hope this helps, come and have a go sometime, Spud seems to be well and truely converted, but it is a very different technique to F Class I am told, despite the same gear.

 

Cheers

 

Bruce

[The Gun Pimp]

I'm not sure about this 1000 yard bench rest and please I'm not trying to be rude.

Perhaps someone could enlighten me a little about the name of the game?

I can see its down to to an accurate rifle in the end. So is the skill element down to a man who can load and fire his gun as fast and as smoothly as possible?

As from what was said you try to beat the wind? So there must be a huge element of luck involved then?

Just interested.

Cheers

Dave

 

A long range target shooter (F Class) has each fall of shot spotted on the target. This gives the shooter a good (perfect) indication of the wind-effect on his bullet. He can then make an adjustment before firing the next shot. Wind flags will assist in making the adjustment. However, reading the wind is not easy.

 

A long range benchrest shooter cannot see his fall of shot, he cannot therefore make an adjustment if (and when) the wind changes.

 

The benchrester's technique is to pick a wind 'condition' within a five minute period allowed for his group - knowing that the 'condition' will maybe only hold for a few seconds. The quicker you get your shots down-range, the more likely to shoot within the condition.

 

It's not too difficult to shoot quickly but, to shoot quickly with perfect gun-handling is indeed a skill. Interestingly, Toni Young also shot a 7.6 inch group with her standard 308 Remington factory rifle. Can you imagine any F/TR shooter with a standard 308 Remmy with a 26 inch barrel getting five consecutive shots in the bull at 1000 yards?

 

In the UK, F Classers don't get to practice quick shooting - or 'string shooting' as the Americans call it. But, in Raton for the Worlds, it will be string shooting - this is what caught out the Americans last time at Bisley - shooting in pairs - and therefore having to read the wind. In string-shooting you must make good use of your time - shooting as quickly as possible when conditions are favorable and standing down when they aren't.

 

Luck? Definitely - if the wind changes it can open that tiny group out to two or three feet! The skill is picking the condition and getting your shots off perfectly before you lose the condition. As with any shooting discipline, accurate ammo./rifle/ set-up is essential. Luck also plays a massive part in F Class - where it's all about shooting 'fours' and 'fives'. Some days, you get lucky and all your line-cutter 'fours' are marked as 'fives' - that's when you win!

 

A top notch F Class 'open' set-up will usually perform very well at 1000 yds BR - as Martin Miles demonstrated the same day, setting a new agg. record - with two 'fours', a 'five' and an eight-inch group. Martin was shooting his 284 F Class rifle but he is also a 'world standard' benchrest shooter, having represented his country many times.

 

When the F season is over, it would be good to see a few 'effers' on the benches - it's a great way to test your ammo/rifle/set-up - as Mark Daish was doing the same day with his new 7mmWSM.

 

At the end of the day though - it's all about competition - beating the other guy - small groups are just the icing on the cake!

[6mmBR]

Thanks guys for the very informative replies and that answered my questions after viewing the initial post.

What threw me was the statement trying to beat the wind.

As I know all to well from F class you have to try and master the wind. You won't beat it, if you take your eyes off the flags for a minute and loose its rhythm it will bite you on the ass!

Yes may well have a go, we run pretty accurate rifles so should be interesting.

Thanks guys

Cheers

Dave

[Brillo]

I shot my first 300, 600, 900 and 1000 yards comp on Sunday at Bisley and the 1000 was challenging and I'm hooked. Just like 100 yard bench rest, it isn't as easy as some shooters make out. I need some advice on 1000 shooting so I'm hoping the brains and experience are here to give me the help I need.

 

First off, I was shooting my Sako TRG-22 (.308) with a 155 Palma SMK's pushed by 46.0 Grn of Viht N140, which gave me MV 2850 fps.

I was OK up to 900 yards (I've shot at 300 and 600 yards many times before), but at 1000yds the wind had a really big effect. The guy next to me warned me of this but I did not expect such a big difference. So what advice do I need?

 

If I want to restrict myself to F-TR I'm limited to .308 or .223. If I want to enter F-Class I can choose any calibre I want.

If I want to compete at club level and enter club open shoots I am limited only by Bisley and the host club rules.

If I opt for a non-Nato calibre this sets me outside F-TR.

 

My toy cupboard comprises a 6mm BR, 6.5x47 (30" barrel with a Barnard action) and the Sako.

 

What can I do, or get to stay with a .308? Do I need a longer barrelled rifle to increase muzzle velocity or what?

If opting for a bigger calibre what is the best option?

I understand that both the 6.5x47 and 6mmBR are good calibres for 1000 yards. How would they compare with a .308 with a 30" barrel?

 

I hope you can see my quandary. What would you do?

[The Gun Pimp]

I shot my first 300, 600, 900 and 1000 yards comp on Sunday at Bisley and the 1000 was challenging and I'm hooked. Just like 100 yard bench rest, it isn't as easy as some shooters make out. I need some advice on 1000 shooting so I'm hoping the brains and experience are here to give me the help I need.

 

First off, I was shooting my Sako TRG-22 (.308) with a 155 Palma SMK's pushed by 46.0 Grn of Viht N140, which gave me MV 2850 fps.

I was OK up to 900 yards (I've shot at 300 and 600 yards many times before), but at 1000yds the wind had a really big effect. The guy next to me warned me of this but I did not expect such a big difference. So what advice do I need?

 

If I want to restrict myself to F-TR I'm limited to .308 or .223. If I want to enter F-Class I can choose any calibre I want.

If I want to compete at club level and enter club open shoots I am limited only by Bisley and the host club rules.

If I opt for a non-Nato calibre this sets me outside F-TR.

 

My toy cupboard comprises a 6mm BR, 6.5x47 (30" barrel with a Barnard action) and the Sako.

 

What can I do, or get to stay with a .308? Do I need a longer barrelled rifle to increase muzzle velocity or what?

If opting for a bigger calibre what is the best option?

I understand that both the 6.5x47 and 6mmBR are good calibres for 1000 yards. How would they compare with a .308 with a 30" barrel?

 

I hope you can see my quandary. What would you do?

 

Mark,

 

6BR and 6.5x47 maybe OK at 1000 yds in benchrest but not for F Class Open. If you want to shoot Open out to 1000 yds you need at least a 6.5-284. If you want to win, then it's a 7mmWSM.

 

Why not stay with the 308 Sako in F/TR? It will certainly teach you to read the wind but, it will be a steep learning curve. If you progress and enjoy it, then think about something more competitive - but don't re-barrel the Sako - you'll simply spoil a nice rifle.

[Brillo]

Mark,

 

6BR and 6.5x47 maybe OK at 1000 yds in benchrest but not for F Class Open. If you want to shoot Open out to 1000 yds you need at least a 6.5-284. If you want to win, then it's a 7mmWSM.

 

Why not stay with the 308 Sako in F/TR? It will certainly teach you to read the wind but, it will be a steep learning curve. If you progress and enjoy it, then think about something more competitive - but don't re-barrel the Sako - you'll simply spoil a nice rifle.

Thanks Vince, I take your point. If it's one thing I've learnt more than anything since taking part in the bench rest comps at Diggle, reading the wind is key. It's obviously something that doesn't come quickly or easily and seems a bit of a black art, but I'll persist.

My home range is right on the Severn estuary and the wind is always strong there. But the range is flat and as a result, generally what you feel at the firing point is also happening at the target. What I need to learn is to gauge what the wind speed is at the target by the position of the wind flag and translate that into minutes of drift over distance. I hope I live long enough to get to grips with it.

[garyw]

just a note on the wind at diggle-on monday at the egg shoot i shot next to a chap at the 500 yd line for the 3 shots prior to the egg-any ways this nice fella was shooting a .243 and proceded to take out a few gadgets to help his wind reading.

he took 4 wind readings and kept saying "this wind is not constant and is not quite full value" it was blowing 2-5mph with short bursts of 6+ i just said to him by the time it comes for you to pull the trigger the wind will be doing the opposite to what you think its doing.i explained to him that due to the terrain at diggle and pointed out a few features and that without wind flags and any sighters you are playing a small lottery with 3 shots i told him to rattle them off as fast as he could to hopefully catch the condition

i knew to rattle then off but im no Bruce Lenton .after the targets came back i had a nice 3 shot cluster even though i screwed up on elevation and windage i kept on the gopher target he was all over and asked what happened -hekept looking at his log book with all his data checked his scope and every nut and bolt and shook his head "dunno what happened there" he said

"i do" you shot too slow i have only been a member at diggle for just over a year now and im slowly learning the strange creature that is diggle ranges.

[Laurie]

As you'll have likely noticed too Gary in your year, is that wind meter readings on the firing points at Diggle are often totally useless, as the wind they receive is often very different from that half way to the target (or even 25 yards in front of the muzzle).

 

At the longer distances with the FPs back on the side of the left hillside, I've sometimes seen (on the grass) and felt (on the face) wind from one direction, while the flags downrange showed the complete opposite, blowing 180-degrees different. (And the bullet strike going somewhere different again just to keep us on our toes!)

 

Still, think of how much entertainment your acquaintance unwittingly gave you (and how many small critters have escaped sudden death too for that matter if this guy does his pest shooting the same way)! It's episodes like this that make me love Diggle and put up with getting cold and wet, shoot crap scores and all the rest .... not to mention the witty (supportive ??!!) comments from one's shooting friends (?) on the firing line!

[brown dog]

Looks like a field gun doing 5rds Fire For Effect with a human recuperator!

 

Been brought to my attention that most don't know what I'm on about with 'human recuperator'.

 

At 1 minute and 22 seconds all should become crystal clear (it's a cool vid too!) :

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUmK7baFCCA

[Laurie]

And there I was thinking it'd be a bottle of beer! (Or a wee dram or six to those of us originating north of the Tweed.)

 

Good video and not a bad group from the one-pounder given the sophisticated (Not) sights.

[garyw]

Thanks for that BD. laughed at the comment on the squirrel.

[foxing2night]

Really good vid BD,,

 

Thanks,

 

Nowere can i get me one of those one pounders from

[Laurie]

Really good vid BD,,

 

Thanks,

 

Nowere can i get me one of those one pounders from

 

 

Hah - I thought that too! Can you imagine what our local firearms licensing teams would say though to the variation request? And what 'good reason' could you give? I don't think 'target shooting', or 'pest control' would work unless you can find some pretty big 'pests' in North Wales.