243 energy

[russelonsdale]

hi guys,at what length does a 243 win tube become marginal for energy on English deer

[1967spud]

depends on weight of bullet and speed

[russelonsdale]

Hi spud ,I understand that but there must be a point where the barrel length wont allow enough speed

[russelonsdale]

if you shoot a 90 grn nosler bt hunting bullet at 2925 fps it dose not make 1700 ft pds

[Tony.H]

if you shoot a 90 grn nosler bt hunting bullet at 2925 fps it dose not make 1700 ft pds

i thought you had to use 100 gr min on deer like fallow and reds?

[gbal]

Hi spud ,I understand that but there must be a point where the barrel length wont allow enough speed

Indeed there must be.But there are four main major variables that affect muzzle energy-the bullet weight,the velocity, the pressure,and the barrel length.They are not of course independent.You can ,on the limits,add individual barrel variations,but these will be small. But it is not possible to specify a minimim barrel length on its own-in particular you have to specify the pressure limit.(eg max SAAMI).The problem of course is that pressure cannot be accurately measured by most reloaders.That said,under 18 inches is probably suspect.Most reloading etc sources qill give bullet/powder and vel;ocity,and specify barrel length.You could use that,and for any that are close to the limit,take of something like 15-20 fps for each inch of barrel shortening-then check energy in a balistics program...but it's a bit iffy.Hopefully some experienced gunsmith etc will have actual data-but it will tend to be bullet specific etc.Commercial barrel lengths are no real guide,as regulations vary between Europe and USA eg,but few if any are sub 18 inches.

george

[gbal]

Indeed there must be.But there are four main major variables that affect muzzle energy-the bullet weight,the velocity, the pressure,and the barrel length.They are not of course independent.You can ,on the limits,add individual barrel variations,but these will be small. But it is not possible to specify a minimim barrel length on its own-in particular you have to specify the pressure limit.(eg max SAAMI).The problem of course is that pressure cannot be accurately measured by most reloaders.That said,under 18 inches is probably suspect.Most reloading etc sources qill give bullet/powder and vel;ocity,and specify barrel length.You could use that,and for any that are close to the limit,take of something like 15-20 fps for each inch of barrel shortening-then check energy in a balistics program...but it's a bit iffy.Hopefully some experienced gunsmith etc will have actual data-but it will tend to be bullet specific etc.Commercial barrel lengths are no real guide,as regulations vary between Europe and USA eg,but few if any are sub 18 inches.

george

 

Here is some information on 243 w pressures/bullets/velocities:

SAAMI maximum pressure is 52000 cup (60000 psi) and you get this with:

 

75 -80 g at 3325 fps

 

85-87 g at 3300 fps

 

100g at 2950 fps

 

Exceeding these means upping pressure- NOT recommended!

 

george

[Simon J]

i thought you had to use 100 gr min on deer like fallow and reds?

only in Scotland

[Laurie]

SAAMI standard loads for factory ammunition loaded with deer bullets are 85-87gn @ 3,300 fps and 100gn @ 2,950 fps all from a 24-inch long standard spec barrel.

 

That works out at 2,104 ft/lb for the 87gn load and 1,932 ft/lb for the 100gn version. The latter needs to drop below 2,766 fps to fail to achieve 1,700 ft/lb. Looking at a huge list of factory ammo claims in 'Ammo & Ballistics 3', the standard guide to factory ammo specs, most makers claim performance levels for their 90 to 100gn loads that are around or a bit over the 2,000 ft/lb ME level, only one down anywhere near 1,700 ft/lb.

 

FWIW, when I acquired an ex-police P-H M87 with 24-inch barrel in .243 Win a few years back, standard 100gn factory loads from Remington, Federal, PMC, and Winchester either failed to achieve 1,700 ft/lb even in that barrel length, or if they did so, by a slim margin. The rifle's barrel was fairly well used but not knackered giving around another 1,000 rounds of shooting before it was shot-out. With 243 life ~2,000 rounds, it'd probably had 1,000 or so through it before it came my way.

 

My understanding of how we got the 1,700 ft/lb floor back in the mid 1960s was that the 243 Win was used as the 'guide cartridge'. On its 1955 introduction and for many years afterwards, Winchester made some pretty bold claims for its ballistics as was the norm in that era before chronographs became accessible to ordinary users, and the 1,700 ft/lb + performance level was frankly bunk, likewise UK law based on these claims. Performance has since crept up to something like or even above original levels for factory ammo thanks to new powders, but I suspect - no I'll go further and say I'm absolutely certain - that many cheaper 'cooking' non-premium factory loads struggle to achieve the minimum ME figure in 24-inch barrels like my M87's, just fail in commonly found 22-inchers, and have no chance of doing it in 20-inch or less.

 

None of this adds to or detracts from the 243's suitability for deerstalking, and perhaps fortunately for many stalkers, I don't think the police or anybody else gives a monkey as to whether a 243 factory load makes the ME floor or not.

[russelonsdale]

Thanks Laurie,I guess what i was getting at was why are short barreled 234s so popular when they are marginal for energy

[gbal]

Thanks Laurie,I guess what i was getting at was why are short barreled 234s so popular when they are marginal for energy

Good point.I intended to use mine for roe in Scotland many years ago. It was just so carryable,and less likely to get caught up in branches etc,esp shouldered/sling. The onus is on the shooter to have legal ammunition-the actual stuff in his chamber. I would not rely on ''some old book said...'' as a defence.....especially as that source would not be refering to the actual box of ammo being used.

george

[kent]

I am not sure on this but was once told that the BASC stalking scheme in Arran chrono-graphed rifles at its earliest days, at that stage they also had a factory ammo only rule. Thing is nobody can tell by looking at a 90 grn or 100 grn bullet of the same brand and type and I wonder if the two things were connected? Not that its hard to insert hand loads into a factory box. there is no Red deer that can tell the difference between a 95 grn Nosler partition and a 100 grn Nosler Partition regardless of which side of the Border its on, placement being equal so I shouldn't worry about barrel length as long as its reasonable

[gbal]

I am not sure on this but was once told that the BASC stalking scheme in Arran chrono-graphed rifles at its earliest days, at that stage they also had a factory ammo only rule. Thing is nobody can tell by looking at a 90 grn or 100 grn bullet of the same brand and type and I wonder if the two things were connected? Not that its hard to insert hand loads into a factory box. there is no Red deer that can tell the difference between a 95 grn Nosler partition and a 100 grn Nosler Partition regardless of which side of the Border its on, placement being equal so I shouldn't worry about barrel length as long as its reasonable

I don't disagree about +/-. 50 ft lbs,and the deer would not normally be called as a witness.The essential legal point remains-there is a risk if you fail to comply with firearms legislation.It's not per se a matter for personal interpretation. A good few reds have no doubt lost the arguement with a 22 rf to the brain,but it's not the weapon of choice for the prudent man.We are not primarily concerned with the side of the border,but the side of legality,which may vary of course. across borders.All such laws have to draw a line- crossing it in the wrong direction is irresponsible.Ammunition can be tested,and probably would be if a cavalier approach was suspected.

 

george

[kent]

I don't disagree about +/-. 50 ft lbs,and the deer would not normally be called as a witness.The essential legal point remains-there is a risk if you fail to comply with firearms legislation.It's not per se a matter for personal interpretation. A good few reds have no doubt lost the arguement with a 22 rf to the brain,but it's not the weapon of choice for the prudent man.We are not primarily concerned with the side of the border,but the side of legality,which may vary of course. across borders.All such laws have to draw a line- crossing it in the wrong direction is irresponsible.Ammunition can be tested,and probably would be if a cavalier approach was suspected.

 

George

Have a look at 5 grns of lead some time, a sensible approach should be taken I am not advising breaking the law just pointing out facts

[gbal]

Have a look at 5 grns of lead some time, a sensible approach should be taken I am not advising breaking the law just pointing out facts

I have an 18 inch 243.

I think my comment about 40g 22 rf lethality evidences some awareness of mass and velocity of lead projectiles,without prejudice.

 

But I don't use either on red deer.

The law is a fact.Your view of ballisics here is an opinion.,which I share.

There is no room for a 'sensible approach' that deviates from the legal one.

The legal parameters might have been set differently.Indeed they were between England and Scotland.

But there is no room for maneuver.End of.

 

On yet another point,I sympathise with your emotions,and what you seem to wish for,but it ain't so.My view is that legislation etc is not too bad,and could have been a lot worse.The issue is complex,and a relatively simple workable guide is needed.That's what we have.Much the same might be said of '70 mph' or votes at 18,or ...as I said before,the law draws a line in the sand.It's clear,and generally pretty fair.

It is an interesting and informative exercise for those that don't entirely like it to try to come up witth a better alternative.

Look forward to reading it .

 

george

ps I've got an 18 inch 222 as well.

Hell,I've got an 18 inch 6.5 m/s that karamojo bell used to kill elephants.

We have progressed I think.

[kent]

I shoot deer with my home loaded 55 grain nosler btips @ 3800 and it stops them in there tracks!! Good shot placement is the key thing!

 

 

With that combo I can quite comfortably say your options are quite limited on that "placement", I shoot pretty much the same load for other stuff and deer are off the menu. Too fast and too frangible till it gets a way out there and then placement becomes a far harder issue. I can only judge this by what I see it do to foxes

[Tuck]

Well as a stalker I shoot deer with in 200 yards and always neck shoot!! Haven't had one run and they all drop on the spot!! It's a percent bullet for neck shooting deer very flat with my 100 zero I can shoot out to 275 yards and that bullet is in the kill zone for the size of a deers neck! Yes perfect for foxes also!!! All this crap about Minimum of 100 grains for deer is bull!! I've seen deer dropped with a 22lr[.

 

I wouldn't promote shooting deer with a 55g bullet or a .22lr for that matter just my 2p worth

 

Rob

[sonic]

Well as a stalker I shoot deer with in 200 yards and always neck shoot!! Haven't had one run and they all drop on the spot!! It's a percent bullet for neck shooting deer very flat with my 100 zero I can shoot out to 275 yards and that bullet is in the kill zone for the size of a deers neck! Yes perfect for foxes also!!! All this crap about Minimum of 100 grains for deer is bull!! I've seen deer dropped with a 22lr

I had to read this twice just to make sure I'd read right are you really telling us that a 55gn is your bullet of choice for deer.

How many do you actually shoot a year and are we talking farmed or wild.

 

I've seen over a ton of really pi$$ed of beef dropped with a .22LR that doesn't make it first choice or even second.

 

according to point blank giving a 55 nosler 3935 fps a 4" target gives a PBR of 279 yds with a 234 yd zero. best will in the world you aint got a 4" target on a deers neck and thats before you take group size into account.

[sonic]

I asked how many because if you show me a man who claim a 100% hit rate stalking more than the odd one or two deer I'll show you a liar.

 

Maybe if you made a well thought out argument backed by proven ballistics instead of exaggerated claims and insults we might take it seriously.

[sonic]

Ballistics are an inescapable part of shooting. whether you chose to believe them is up to you. The facts are there in black and white and used by everyone from air gunners to artillery. I should know I've done both.

 

While you're calling it crap the majority of members on here will use some form of ballistic program backed by real world testing at some point for their shooting.

[sonic]

I'll not hold my breath then?

[sonic]

So you're the Inch high at hundred then point and shoot guy. well if that's all you need good luck to you.

 

I know my rifle shoot 6" low at 300 yards and with ten mph wind moves 3" or what I need for a 250 yd stag on the hill taking into account angle wind etc. all backed up by shooting to confirm If your happy with point and pray carry on.

If you put the attitude away maybe you could learn something.

I study ballistics then test then practice, then practice some more. And when I've finished there's no need for charts I know without thinking about it where to aim a good 350 yds beyond that the foxes are a bit small and the odds of wounding a bit high, but that's just me.

[Chris-NZ]

Well I zero at 100 yards I can point and shoot at a deers neck with out worring for hold over out to 250 yards. ..

 

 

Umm, this is getting embarrassing.

For your education, half a min of aiming/grouping elevation error at this range will give you a complete miss or if you're slightly more lucky, a wounded animal.

 

I've shot deer with .223s at up to 200yds but it will -never- be my preferred choice of armament, esp with neck shots. I'm not interested in what -might- be possible with luck 80% of the time. Animals deserve more certainty than that. If you can't contain your ego, I suggest you consider what newbies reading this will make of your assertions.

 

Chris-NZ

[kent]

wind up merchant on the loose

[achosenman]

I'm getting the impression that the only thing you stalk is other forum members.