Scenar Bullets

[Orka Akinse]

Thinking of going over to the 139g scenar for my 6.5 and have noticed Sierra do both a 139g HPBT and a HPBT Match. Is there any discernable difference? If so what? Apart from price.

[baldie]

Scenars are a secant ogive and the sierra is a tangent ogive.

 

Sierra,s jump easily. Very accurate indeed in my old .260

[Davy]

I have been using 139 Scenars for a while in a 6,5-284 and they always shoot well however I have just picked up a couple of boxes of the Berger 140 Hybrids to try for a comparison.

 

One thing about the 139 Scenar is they take a point very nicely and are a lot cheaper than the Berger so it will be an interesting test.

[Orka Akinse]

Scenars are a secant ogive and the sierra is a tangent ogive.

 

In english please Baldie :lol:

[gbal]

In english please Baldie :lol:

.....cf 'Auld lang sine'

[Laurie]

I'm a little confused by the original post here as it mentions the 139gn Scenar first - a Lapua bullet - then mentions Sierra doing a 139 HPBT and HPBT Match, neither of which are listed by this company.

 

Lapua makes 6.5mm Scenars in 100, 108, 123 and 139gn weights. It also makes some FMJs in this calibre, for long-range shooters the interesting one being a 144gn boat-tail model, but one I imagine aimed more at Historic Arms shooters rather than F-Class or bench rest.

 

Sierra makes 6.5mm HPBT MatchKings in 107, 120, 123, 140, and 142gn weights. The 140gn model (p/n 1740) is a really longstanding example, but is fairly short and blunt by today's standards, so BCs are a bit down. I used them what seems centuries ago in handloads for military M1896 Swedish Mausers and they're still a great bullet for that sort of rifle.

 

The 142gn (p/n 1742) is a more modern bullet with a much longer nose section (11.1 calibres radius) and Bryan Litz gives it a G7 BC of 0.301 and i7 form factor of 0.967 which is good but not leading the field. (The Berger 140 VLD is 0.313 / 0.918 where you want i7 as low as possible as it's a reflection of the drag generated by the design.) This bullet was, probably still is, the darling of US 6.5-284 Norma long-range shooters in F etc, but had a reputation for being all over the place in things like bearing surface lengths and weights needing inspection and batching before loading. The word is that recent production lots are much more consistent.

 

The 139gn Lapua Scenar is another good design, but is relatively inefficient compared to the best of the Bergers and the 142gn Sierra with an i7 value of 1.002 according to Litz. That means it produces nearly identical drag to the G7 'reference bullet shape'. Its G7 BC is 0.285. Looking at Bryan Litz's drawing in his book and my own examples of the bullet, I reckon Baldie's wrong on this one as it's a tangent ogive design and therefore jump-tolerant. For the record it's a 9.7 calibre radius nose section, so shorter than the 142 Sierra MK.

 

So where does that leave people (except confused)? The 139gn Scenar is a damn good bullet that is well made and works in a lot of makes and dimensions of barrel. It's got a proven track record in the UK in long-range competition. The 142gn SMK has a proven US track record, and there's lots of loads data and tips about seating depths / jump etc on loading it in 6.5-284 on the AccurateShooter website cartridge guide section, but is seen less often here for some reason. The Berger 140 VLD tops the BC charts in the calibre / bullet weight - or did until the Hybrid came out reecently, but it's only marginally ahead of the VLD at 0.317 to 0.313 G7 BC. I know that the Berger VLD does reduce wind effect at long range over the 139 Scenar - Richard Huby emailed me the results of a quite rigorous 1,000 yard side by side test he did using the pair in 6.5X47L when he was still living and competing in New Zealand a year or two back.

 

That leaves price. I don't know what the availability of the 142gn SMK is - I suspect you might have to buy it in the 500-bullet bulk pack to get it here. But, it'll almost certainly be the cheapest of the quartet. The Lapua 139 will be in the middle and the the two high-BC Bergers will cost most ......... you pays your money and takes your choice!

[baldie]

You live and learn Laurie, i always thought the Scenar was a secant ogive, mainly down to my own personal findings that it didn,t jump well, certainly not as good as the 140 grain SMK [ code 1740 ]

[Laurie]

Ah ... that old Sierra 140 (no. 1740), Dave. I reckon you could have it jump half the length of the barrel and it'd still shoot OK! I must have loaded thousands of them over the years in well used military Mausers. I have some 142s now, but no experience of them except in a factory Savage 12 F Class 6.5-284 where they didn't shine. But, no other bullet shone in that rifle either until I had it rebarrelled to 6.5X55mm with a Bartlein.

 

I plan to do quite a bit of 6.5 load development over the next 2 or 3 years. (Typical - finally got around to 6.5mm when everybody else has moved onto 7!) Just sorting out 6.5 Creedmoor brass this afternoon prior to loading some with 123gn Scenars for the Armalite / SGC SSR-10 that Vince rebarrelled (with your much appreciated assistance, we'll both add), 6.5X55mm, 260 Rem and 6.5-284 also in the frame. That makes it a near full-house set except 6.5X47L which I haven't got any current plans for having had it 'fail' in the FN SPR / Winchester 70 thanks to a fat, ill-fitting firing pin that gave badly cratered primers at starting loads and pierced them at anything 1.0gn or more above starting.

[baldie]

Good stuff Laurie, keep us informed on the creedmoor....i am not having much luck with mine yet, a combination of seating depth and a heavy trigger i think.

 

Happy new year old friend.

[Laurie]

Good stuff Laurie, keep us informed on the creedmoor....i am not having much luck with mine yet, a combination of seating depth and a heavy trigger i think.

 

Happy new year old friend.

 

 

I will do Dave. I have a second rifle lined up for the cartridge too - a Stiller action tactical job that's waiting on Brian Fox getting some more 6.5 cal barrels into stock.

 

and Happy New Year to you too, mate.

 

Laurie

[baldie]

I have some Barlien 6.5 heavy varmints in stock Laurie.

[garyw]

I shot the 139 scenars last week[thurs]at diggle ,in my 6.5x284 first real range time with it.

with n165 and the scenars i did ok in the heavy gun class.iwas pleased to say the least.after the shoot i was talking with MR.B. an he suggested trying the bergers,his point was the jackets [j4] on the bergers are the best out there and would be worth investigating,[more money]imay see aunty wainwright and give them a whirl.

[Laurie]

Gary,

 

try some of the JLKs too that Brian F has in stock. I've not tried the 6.5 VLDs yet, but the same make and model of 105gn 6mm bulets have given some people very good results. Like Bergers, they use J4 jackets, I believe. They're quite a bit cheaper than the Bergers. I suspect they also cost a little less than the Scenars too given that Lapua bullets aren't the bargain they once were anymore.

 

 

 

 

www.FoxFirearmsUK.com 0161 430 8278 or 07941 958464

 

UK distributor of JLK custom bullets

 

REPUTED TO BE THE BEST

 

code description count price inc. VAT per 100

 

2275 224, 75g, VLD £28

2290 224, 90g, VLD £28

2277 224, 77g, Conventional Ogive £28

 

24105 6mm, 105g, VLD £34

24115 6mm, 115g, VLD £39

 

26130 6.5mm, 130g, VLD £38

26140 6.5mm, 140, VLD £39

 

30155 30, 155g, Palma £41

30180LBT 30, 180g, VLD Long Boat-tail £42

30190 30, 190g, VLD £42

30210 30, 210g, VLD £43

30210LBT 30, 210g, VLD Long Boat-tail £43

 

 

(There will be a heavy (180gn) 7mm VLD too in due course, but last I heard, Brian was waiting on a batch being made and delivery to our shores.)

 

Happy New Year to you by the way - see you at Diggle no doubt in January sometime.

[garyw]

Thanks Laurie-i have 500 scenars to get through[or sell]i bought them off of here[spud]a lot cheaper than the jlk,s but worth a whirl maybe.catch up with you next year!

atb-gary

[Davy]

I know Darrel certainly gets on well with the JLK's however they are not for everyone and someone I know recently sold off a good few hundred having never been able to get on with them.

[Laurie]

sold off a good few hundred having never been able to get on with them.

 

Aha - that Golden Rule broken again. Never buy more than 100 until you know for certain your barrel likes them! Not that I can pontificate having broken it a few times before and been caught short as a result.

 

Apart from the 77gn 0.224, JLKs are all VLDs each and every one of course. Some shooters and VLDs never become friends in my experience.

[garyw]

Aha - that Golden Rule broken again. Never buy more than 100 until you know for certain your barrel likes them! Not that I can pontificate having broken it a few times before and been caught short as a result.

 

Apart from the 77gn 0.224, JLKs are all VLDs each and every one of course. Some shooters and VLDs never become friends in my experience.

the original owner-the dutch shooter with the long name, used the scenars so im just following his path.