New and exciting variation on a theme?

[That bald headed Geordie]

Hi All. I was mulling over a comment made recently (and used frequently) that there is nothing under the sun (cartridge wise) that has not been done before.

Well, I may have got one that has not been done by anyone before and bring it to the table for discussion and would appreciate any comments from anyone who has gunsmith qualifications.

What I had in mind for use in 600yd Precision Benchrest and also perhaps mid to long range F class league shoots was, using a 6mm calibre bullet of in the region of 100 grains to use a brass case that is an inverted bottle neck shape.

The shoulder/neck junction would have a diameter of 0.8 and the headstamp would have a diameter of 0.473 or so (to fit a 0.308 boltface).

Could anyone recommend the best way to ensure obturation and method of insertion/extraction. Also what about dies and also reamers? I guess I would require custom made dies which is not a problem.

Comments please as to the feasibility of this new and exciting form of brass. If it has never been done before then I was going to call this new case the PCC = Prior Conical Cartridge (as an homage to the PPC - Pindell/Parmisano/Cartridge).

Cheers gents.

[Andrew]

So, the front front end of the case would be twice as large as the rear end? (.800" tapering to .473") Isn't that going to be tough to load?

 

The US Army used a rifle (Gallagher?) that had straight tapered case fatter at the front than the rear. Made of rubber, of all things. 1860 circa.~Andrew

[Gunsgobang88]

Hi,

 

I know that 'short fat' powder columns are in vogue but this just might be too much of a good thing!

 

Alan (still possessing all body parts)

[gbal]

Hi All. I was mulling over a comment made recently (and used frequently) that there is nothing under the sun (cartridge wise) that has not been done before.

Well, I may have got one that has not been done by anyone before and bring it to the table for discussion and would appreciate any comments from anyone who has gunsmith qualifications.

What I had in mind for use in 600yd Precision Benchrest and also perhaps mid to long range F class league shoots was, using a 6mm calibre bullet of in the region of 100 grains to use a brass case that is an inverted bottle neck shape.

The shoulder/neck junction would have a diameter of 0.8 and the headstamp would have a diameter of 0.473 or so (to fit a 0.308 boltface).

Could anyone recommend the best way to ensure obturation and method of insertion/extraction. Also what about dies and also reamers? I guess I would require custom made dies which is not a problem.

Comments please as to the feasibility of this new and exciting form of brass. If it has never been done before then I was going to call this new case the PCC = Prior Conical Cartridge (as an homage to the PPC - Pindell/Parmisano/Cartridge).

Cheers gents.

 

 

The PCC : trapdoor breach,barndoor accuracy,pending lapua brass;but could be necked up to much larger calibres,say 700 nitro.

 

george

 

 

[That bald headed Geordie]

Thanks for that gbal. Hmmmmm 700 Nitro!

Did not think that could be a possibility, but could I use my usual large rifle primer BR2, or would I have to use magnum primers? And also would this new and exciting calibre reduce the amount of Coreolis (dependent upon which Continent I am on?).

[gbal]

So, the front front end of the case would be twice as large as the rear end? (.800" tapering to .473") Isn't that going to be tough to load?

 

The US Army used a rifle (Gallagher?) that had straight tapered case fatter at the front than the rear. Made of rubber, of all things. 1860 circa.~Andrew

Hi Andrew,the Gallager carbine,.525 caliber,brass case with propellant and projectile,paper base ignited by percussion cap."Johnnie" Rebs may have tried to waterproof them with rubber products,but cases were in any case notoriously difficult to extract.

george

[That bald headed Geordie]

So, the front front end of the case would be twice as large as the rear end? (.800" tapering to .473") Isn't that going to be tough to load?

 

The US Army used a rifle (Gallagher?) that had straight tapered case fatter at the front than the rear. Made of rubber, of all things. 1860 circa.~Andrew

 

Hi Andrew, rubber eh! Well I have always been a huge fan of rubber products, and that may well be a solution to a difficult problem.

Maybe the backdoor/trapdoor method could well make a come back so many thanks for your input. Keep them coming! (Apparently, the motto of another rubber product!).

Regards

[gbal]

Thanks for that gbal. Hmmmmm 700 Nitro!

Did not think that could be a possibility, but could I use my usual large rifle primer BR2, or would I have to use magnum primers? And also would this new and exciting calibre reduce the amount of Coreolis (dependent upon which Continent I am on?).

Agreed-just a 'latte inspired' thought-the 700 nitro was an interim solution to any accuracy issues-it will take out any known barn,and any plausible target inside too.I'd go for magnum primers,probably conventional cylinder design-but who knows-it's been a stagnant R&D area for too long.Though I had not anticipated this advantage,on any continent,Coreolis obsession disorder is minor with the 700 nitro,as the bullet diameter exceeds the average peri equatorial effect.It is a bit extreme though,needing a hefty trapdoor,to solve what is at best,only a theoretical problem.. With Lapua brass,any moderate calibre would be more useful, ,and you could develop switch barrel/trapdoor actions.I can see no a priori reason to exclude pyramidical brass,either(the Prior Camel Cartridge?),and no doubt other wildcat geometries could be explored.

gbal

[That bald headed Geordie]

Agreed-just a 'latte inspired' thought-the 700 nitro was an interim solution to any accuracy issues-it will take out any known barn,and any plausible target inside too.I'd go for magnum primers,probably conventional cylinder design-but who knows-it's been a stagnant R&D area for too long.Though I had not anticipated this advantage,on any continent,Coreolis obsession disorder is minor with the 700 nitro,as the bullet diameter exceeds the average peri equatorial effect.It is a bit extreme though,needing a hefty trapdoor,to solve what is at best,only a theoretical problem.. With Lapua brass,any moderate calibre would be more useful, ,and you could develop switch barrel/trapdoor actions.I can see no a priori reason to exclude pyramidical brass,either(the Prior Camel Cartridge?),and no doubt other wildcat geometries could be explored.

gbal

 

Hmmmm, regarding the Camel. Rather like the famous Borden Bumps, should I have one or two on my new and exciting bolt/trapdoor BAT action?

By the way I am taking tablets for my Coreolis problem and I expect to recover fairly quickly. But your comments have opened up a can of worms in what I perceived to be an easy and giant leap for mankind in the arena of brass cartridges which has not really moved forward in the past century.

Time for a cappucino with sprinkles methinks!

[gbal]

Hmmmm, regarding the Camel. Rather like the famous Borden Bumps, should I have one or two on my new and exciting bolt/trapdoor BAT action?

By the way I am taking tablets for my Coreolis problem and I expect to recover fairly quickly. But your comments have opened up a can of worms in what I perceived to be an easy and giant leap for mankind in the arena of brass cartridges which has not really moved forward in the past century.

Time for a cappucino with sprinkles methinks!

 

Don't give up-it's all just speculation at this stage-like my ideas about double helix rifling,if its good enough for all evolution,maybe it can be adapted for bullet revolutions.

george

[brown dog]

using a 6mm calibre bullet of in the region of 100 grains to use a brass case that is an inverted bottle neck shape.

The shoulder/neck junction would have a diameter of 0.8 and the headstamp would have a diameter of 0.473 or so (to fit a 0.308 boltface).

I can't even partially visualise what you're describing ; could you re-explain? or do I need to drink some rum to make it clearer?!

 

[baldie]

[Chris-NZ]

Is the National Health now prescribing LSD to shooters?

[That bald headed Geordie]

Is the National Health now prescribing LSD to shooters?

 

Works for me!!!

And also for gbal apparently!!!

[That bald headed Geordie]

I can't even partially visualise what you're describing ; could you re-explain? or do I need to drink some rum to make it clearer?!

 

 

Hi BD. Keep on drinking matey it will make sense in the end.

Being an ex matelot, I loved the rum, but not the bum, but loved the baccy!.

[Danpd]

[Andrew]

Hi Andrew,the Gallager carbine,.525 caliber,brass case with propellant and projectile,paper base ignited by percussion cap."Johnnie" Rebs may have tried to waterproof them with rubber products,but cases were in any case notoriously difficult to extract.

george

 

My mistake. It was the Burnside Carbine that used a tapered case, they experimented with rubber casings at one point.~Andrew

[gbal]

My mistake. It was the Burnside Carbine that used a tapered case, they experimented with rubber casings at one point.~Andrew

Ah yes-the Burnside .54.Like the Gallager,ignition was by a percussion cap into a small hole in the base of the black powder cartridge.It's not clear if the conical cartridge tapered towards the front or the rear.Strictly speaking,it would have to be a truncated cone design.I can't find a patent for any rubberised ammo,but such may have been experimented with. Obturation was apparently impressive for the period,but the brass case still got stuck quite often.

george

[gbal]

Biblical oxymoron,but nice vintage Raybans ...G15 or prescripture lenses?

george

[gbal]

My mistake. It was the Burnside Carbine that used a tapered case, they experimented with rubber casings at one point.~Andrew

Yeah,Andrew got it-cartridge looks about a 21/2 inch ice cream cone,truncated at the narrow end for essentially what would become a primer pocket,but then was then externally fired by a separate percussion cap through the hole;front end allows a bullet/ ball to be inserted over a patch,and seems to have an 'magnum belt'-but will be to allow inside space for the sealing patch.Lever rotates the breech block up,allowing cone to be inserted,thin end towards rear,and when closed block and cartridge is flush with barrel.Neat-just needs the primer in the 'pocket'....not much to help finger extraction after firing,though.

Do you know if any rubber works were to do with the bullet patch area?And I assume the 'primerpocket'hole was sealed with a smear of some grease,or was that the condom application?!

george

[Andrew]

Ah yes-the Burnside .54.Like the Gallager,ignition was by a percussion cap into a small hole in the base of the black powder cartridge.It's not clear if the conical cartridge tapered towards the front or the rear.Strictly speaking,it would have to be a truncated cone design.I can't find a patent for any rubberised ammo,but such may have been experimented with. Obturation was apparently impressive for the period,but the brass case still got stuck quite often.

george

 

It is tapered towards the rear. There was a hole with a bit of nitrated paper or linen across it that was burned through by the cap to ignite the powder. They did make rubber cases but I don't know the time frame. I have held the rifle and the cases but it was long ago and I don't remember if they were original or reproductions. Rubber cases were thought to be easier to get out. Dixie Gun Works of Union City,Tennessee did once made repros of them for civil war re-enactors, of that I am certain.

 

I shoot models 1861 and 1859 Sharps rifles with nitrated paper cartridges. It's a lot of fun and provides some very accurate shooting.~Andrew

[gbal]

It is tapered towards the rear. There was a hole with a bit of nitrated paper or linen across it that was burned through by the cap to ignite the powder. They did make rubber cases but I don't know the time frame. I have held the rifle and the cases but it was long ago and I don't remember if they were original or reproductions. Rubber cases were thought to be easier to get out. Dixie Gun Works of Union City,Tennessee did once made repros of them for civil war re-enactors, of that I am certain.

 

I shoot models 1861 and 1859 Sharps rifles with nitrated paper cartridges. It's a lot of fun and provides some very accurate shooting.~Andrew

 

OK:the Burnside seems to be a conical case-it's remakably like a little ice cream cone,especiall y with the 'one scoop' round ball seated in it.With ignition at the narrow end,it clearly was not a conventionally chambered barrel-indeed must have been an external breech block-rotated up by the lever action,so that the cartridge could be dropped into the 'chamber' in the block,then rotated back down to align/seal with the barrel. Extraction could be aided by gravity-open block,turn rifle upside down!

Hmmm....

How about then a conical bullet in a barrel chambered rifle? I am thinking of a genuine conical shape,with a fairly large primer in the flat base,tapering down to the required calibre,but then having some short drawn cylindrical neck for bullet retention. How about a farqharson action-I think we can forget about magazine feed or any military application,given the cone case so can have pure class instead.Provisional working designation is the TP (basic shape looks rather 'wigwam'.Yes,I know it might look like Mt Vesuvius too,but 'Volcanic' is already a trade mark in radical gun design.)

The conical shape would concentrate the powder close to the (extra large) primer,for more rapid and even burn,and 'shape' the pressure into the neck/barrel.The case could readily be flanged to enable effective extraction.

I have not abandoned the idea of a pyramidical shape,but that isn't entirely new either-see the Dardick revolver with its triangular cartridge,but you are stuck with triangular bullets/bore-which precludes much in the way of innovative rifling,like the double helix idea, or a difficult case reneck configuration to cylindrical.

(BD visual aid)):If you have a Nespresso coffee machine,the podules are a very dumpy,flanged version of the TP.Don't be put of by the latte flavour-it comes in double expresso clooney magnum too.The TP would be longer,for greater capacity ,more sharply conical,for a less dramatic bottle neck reduction-more Hornet,if you want to cash in on this revival- for modern small calibers in ,say, 6/6.5,but the design will accomodate black powder big bores too,and it could be belted,for the Max Headroom issue.

 

I admit I'm out of my comfort zone with the rubber technology,but no doubt others with more fertile-or rather preventative-imaginations may be able to expand this.

 

george

[Andrew]

Look at the 22 Remington Jet and read up on how people viewed it. It sounds like your cartridge in miniature.

 

Is there a reason for the big primer? if we aren't talking a shotgun or 50 BMG primer, you'd be in for a whole 'nuther manufacturing line to compliment your cartridge.

 

The "I shoot an Ackley Improved because the cases stretch less" gang will comment that such a design, the Anti-Ackley, will cause massive case stretching. Be prepared for that one.

 

Sounds interesting though. Are you thinking of a 6.5 bore then? How about a Ruger #1 instead of a Farquarsen. Cheaper, I'd wager!~Andrew

[gbal]

Look at the 22 Remington Jet and read up on how people viewed it. It sounds like your cartridge in miniature.

 

Is there a reason for the big primer? if we aren't talking a shotgun or 50 BMG primer, you'd be in for a whole 'nuther manufacturing line to compliment your cartridge.

 

The "I shoot an Ackley Improved because the cases stretch less" gang will comment that such a design, the Anti-Ackley, will cause massive case stretching. Be prepared for that one.

 

Sounds interesting though. Are you thinking of a 6.5 bore then? How about a Ruger #1 instead of a Farquarsen. Cheaper, I'd wager!~Andrew

 

H Andrew: the Rem jet is/was really just a 224 Harvey Hornet with pretentions!The Ruger would be the sensible-and available action,if ever...we get off the sketching board...I was just using Farquarson generically...

I think incidentally,that the Smith used rubber cases-as I recall,a split breech,tip down barrel,with the cartridge inserted into the recess in the breech,and bullet head into barrel on closing-the inteerest is in the implausible idea of rubber as obturant/case-''nothing new under the sun'' is the hypothesis,remember.

The TP as envisaged is much more radical-a cone,so base is considerably more than the neck-so a big primer to ignite all that heap of powder fast. A shotgun primer may well be enough,good suggestion. 6.5mm is merely to be fashionable-over here,it's all the rage-we don't of course have big critturs.That said,way back a hundred years ago,before the 6.5 was discovered, the 6.5 was the gentleman's,soldier's and african hunter's- caliber of choice,but that's another story.The TP design should tolerate a wide range of calibres,including some quite wide ones.

The true spirit of this thread is perhaps best captured by the S-50 cartridge-the 50 cal browning case necked down to take a standard singer sewing machine needle.Though admitedly extreme,it was nonetheless a perfectly conventional design- so fails the 'under the sun' criterion,as do most contenders.

george

[Andrew]

H Andrew: the Rem jet is/was really just a 224 Harvey Hornet with pretentions!The Ruger would be the sensible-and available action,if ever...we get off the sketching board...I was just using Farquarson generically...

I think incidentally,that the Smith used rubber cases-as I recall,a split breech,tip down barrel,with the cartridge inserted into the recess in the breech,and bullet head into barrel on closing-the inteerest is in the implausible idea of rubber as obturant/case-''nothing new under the sun'' is the hypothesis,remember.

The TP as envisaged is much more radical-a cone,so base is considerably more than the neck-so a big primer to ignite all that heap of powder fast. A shotgun primer may well be enough,good suggestion. 6.5mm is merely to be fashionable-over here,it's all the rage-we don't of course have big critturs.That said,way back a hundred years ago,before the 6.5 was discovered, the 6.5 was the gentleman's,soldier's and african hunter's- caliber of choice,but that's another story.The TP design should tolerate a wide range of calibres,including some quite wide ones.

The true spirit of this thread is perhaps best captured by the S-50 cartridge-the 50 cal browning case necked down to take a standard singer sewing machine needle.Though admitedly extreme,it was nonetheless a perfectly conventional design- so fails the 'under the sun' criterion,as do most contenders.

george

 

Well, George, I wish you well on your endeavor.~Andrew