Primer ignition testing

[baldie]

Matt, as i understand the 4 photo,s of Dave,s , they are four different primers, fired from the same cases by the same gun , in the same air conditions.

 

It then stands to reason that if all the conditions are the same, then the only difference must be the priming compound.

 

Your picture of the four bunsen flames show the same torch with varying degrees of air mixed in with the gas they run on. I assume you know how a bunsen works ?

 

I will of course stand to be corrected by proof, and adult debate, not "Ho Ho"s and patronisation thank you.

[brown dog]

Matt, as i understand the 4 photo,s of Dave,s , they are four different primers, fired from the same cases by the same gun , in the same air conditions.

 

It then stands to reason that if all the conditions are the same, then the only difference must be the priming compound.

 

Your picture of the four bunsen flames show the same torch with varying degrees of air mixed in with the gas they run on. I assume you know how a bunsen works ?

 

I will of course stand to be corrected by proof, and adult debate, not "Ho Ho"s and patronisation thank you.

 

Dave, I give up. You're missing the point; which has chuff all to do with bunsen function.

 

The point is: Brighter bigger flame doesn't mean more power. or more primer compound or more anything except bigger more visible flame.

 

For example, Davy's top primer photo could show, despite its smaller visible flash, a primer that's dumped 50 times more energy, 50 times faster than the primer in his bottom photo. Davy's top primer with the smaller flash could be a compound 1000 times more brisant than the bottom primer's compound - the fact that the bottom primer has a bigger visible flame is, on its own, meaningless. You cannot draw any valid deductions or comparisons between the primers based on the photos alone.

 

EDIT: sorry, you can draw one deduction: the bottom primer has a bigger visible flash.

[terryh]

I think what Matt's trying to say is you cannot just use briessence asvan indicator of cartridge performance, but you could use it as a comparitor of ingnition method.

 

Terry

[foxing2night]

BD, I see what you are getting at now, ,,,

 

George, so if i understand your theory that all brands are basically the same and that changing between them will not make a difference,

Then the same could be said about a bullet?? different brands but all of the same weight should all behave the same????????,

 

But i hope that you would agree that they don't???, Why, because there are slight differences between the makers and the process that they use to manufacture,,,,

 

What i tried to say was that i will try and use different makes of primers primers just to see if i can get better results,,,

 

All in all a very interesting debate

 

Just hope that i have not opened a can of worms,,,

 

Darrel

[brown dog]

Darrel,

 

I'm just trying to point out that judged on visible flash alone; 1oz of PE4 would appear less impressive than 1oz of shaved match heads.

 

Match heads: big enduring flame....oooooh

 

PE4: BANG! Minimal (in comparison) visible flame.

 

"Blimey look at the huge flame from those matcheads. They must be more powerful than the PE4."

 

 

 

 

 

That said, as Terry has observed, it'll work as a guide for comparing same with same (ie Fed210s under one set of conditions with Fed210s under another set of conditions.) which, I think, is Davy's aim.

 

It's just meaningless for comparing 'different'.

[gbal]

BD, I see what you are getting at now, ,,,

 

George, so if i understand your theory that all brands are basically the same and that changing between them will not make a difference,

Then the same could be said about a bullet?? different brands but all of the same weight should all behave the same????????,

 

But i hope that you would agree that they don't???, Why, because there are slight differences between the makers and the process that they use to manufacture,,,,

 

What i tried to say was that i will try and use different makes of primers primers just to see if i can get better results,,,

 

All in all a very interesting debate

 

 

Indeed-first,Matt is very clear- you cannot judge properties like heat etc just from a photo of the size of the flame.

Second,bullets are known and nmeasureably different,and ther is an extensive body of data that shows different bullets can perform differently.Ther really isn't such data for primers.Buullets differ in ogive and BC for example,which are readily measureable and very clearly affect performance-anyone can easily test that,and most of us have-it's subsumed under 'load development'. But you will be hard pushed to show much variation between primers,in their effect on bullets -there might be relatively minor fps/SD differences,but there really aren't many independent measures-as there are for bullets-which correlate with performance,and generally the effects are very small.'A primer is just a primer' isn't way off the truth,within the same category.'A bullet is just a bullet' is flying in the face of a vast amount of evidence,both theory and practice.

"You" can't just jump from one statement to a totally different scenario- 'a one cent coin is just like another one cent coin'-true,especially for the value (rareties excluded) .But it does not follow at all that one coin (cent) is just like another coin (pound) in all ways,and it manifestly isn't for value.(yeah,pound is less when importing stuff!).

That said,I am sometimes tempted by analogies myself,though not I hope logical fallacies,and you run risks in deflecting the essential point. However,as a working generality,one primer from a box of Federal LR will not differ in performance from a primer from a box of Federal LR Match,anything like as much as a 168g Lapua 308 scenar bullet will differ in performance from a 168g Soft point hunting bullet.

Powders and bullets,AND their interaction, vary considerably and measurably on the parameters that matter,and are important determinants of performance.Brass and primers brand generally much less so.(d barrel twist etc, is external to the cartridge). There may be a small worm or two in that can,but I suspect it summarised the practical experience of very many shooters.Note I am not commenting for example,on Lapua brass primer pockets' lesser expansion with extreme loads ;such considerations may matter,but are in a different domain to the cartridge's performance(as is price,etc etc).

 

"I mean what I say,and I say what I mean-that's the same thing,you know" (the Mad Hatter, in Alice in Wonderland).Now,that is a can of worms,and left Alice confused!

 

george

[gbal]

BD, I see what you are getting at now, ,,,

 

George, so if i understand your theory that all brands are basically the same and that changing between them will not make a difference,

Then the same could be said about a bullet?? different brands but all of the same weight should all behave the same????????,

 

But i hope that you would agree that they don't???, Why, because there are slight differences between the makers and the process that they use to manufacture,,,,

 

What i tried to say was that i will try and use different makes of primers primers just to see if i can get better results,,,

 

All in all a very interesting debate

 

 

 

Just hope that i have not opened a can of worms,,,

 

Darrel: Think of a calibre.How many primers do you have to choose from,and how many bullets?

Primers vary on a few parameters,bullets are designed to vary on rather more,and the major effects of these bullet parameter variations become more pronounced with distance.Within the barrel,a bullet is just a bullet,but not at 100 yards,and even more not so at 300+ yards.

george