nightforce Posted January 5, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 5, 2008 Ok lads I'll get it off to them asap. I do were surgeon type gloves when gralloching as a matter of course and all my knifes are thourghly srubbed and disinfected after coming into contact with any meat. Ratwhiskers you are correct. Thanks Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orka Akinse Posted January 5, 2008 Report Share Posted January 5, 2008 Keep us posted NF, none of us are too long in the tooth to learn new things. Good luck buddy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eldon Posted January 5, 2008 Report Share Posted January 5, 2008 Cant we make this a sticky or reference file. Label it diseases or something, I am sure we would all use it either out of curiosity or in time of need? Excellent pictures which as OA said are some times hard to find. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronin Posted January 6, 2008 Report Share Posted January 6, 2008 Excellent suggestion Eldon - d oes anyone have photographs showing various infections, infestation and diseased organs with the prognosis (cause) positively identified? It would provide excellent reference material - thanks in advance. Once DEFRA have looked at the material sent to them by Nightforce and given an accurate analysis, we will create a sticky file. Nightforce - could you update when results known? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratwhiskers Posted January 6, 2008 Report Share Posted January 6, 2008 Take a look at this site. lt covers slaughter inspection in farm stock but can be related to and of our target species...including Cornishmen Lots of lovely photo's of bits of dead things.... http://www.fao.org/docrep/003/t0756e/T0756E01.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratwhiskers Posted January 6, 2008 Report Share Posted January 6, 2008 Oh dear. That is what I was told by my college lecturer who are supposed to know a lot about stalking and they teach the DSC 1, I'll tell him off and boil that knife out!! Thanks for the point! BTW...... Dan. Thursday 10/01/08 14.00 - 17.00 Deer Management NL002 An aquaintance of ours will be waiting for your input on this subject. Regards. Ratwhiskers. .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stag1933 Posted January 6, 2008 Report Share Posted January 6, 2008 Kidneys from a Red Hind. Stone beside small kidney. [ standard matchbox for size reference.] The beast was in good condition and of average weight for the time of the year. HWH. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orka Akinse Posted January 6, 2008 Report Share Posted January 6, 2008 Was she in every other way, normal Stag? What I mean to say is did she appear completely normal before the shot and subsequent gralloch? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redfox Posted January 6, 2008 Report Share Posted January 6, 2008 Bet it gave it some grief pain wise Stag, I had a gall stone some years back and towards the end when they whipped the lot out, the pain was so bad they had to give me morphine It must have ( the stone) either prevented kidney growth or caused it to atrophy and shrink, I dont know which. But a lot of people see things and dont bother to photograph them for the benefit of others, which is sad. Redfox Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nightforce Posted January 6, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 6, 2008 I'm sorry to say but only the worms are going to find out what was wrong with that deer because the land owner won't let me take it into Defra. Thats why I was trying to find an answer first because there would really be no chance in taking it, but I had to ask him carefully but it was a resounding 'NO!'. I would have taken it straight away but these things happen, I would have loved to find what it was, so its going to be one of lifes little misteries. Ratty (Dave) I'm not going to say something I regret, so I'll keep stum. All the best and thanks for all the help everyone! Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redfox Posted January 6, 2008 Report Share Posted January 6, 2008 And they wonder why FMD got all over the country! I know your in a cleft stick here as if you do anything he doesnt like you lose the stalking. But as well as being illegal, it is highly irresponsible to hide things like that, what about his neighbours and their animals. If it was TB what about the public and the children in particular who drink the milk from cows that may go on the land etc etc. I know that farming is a risky business, I have two relatives still in it, but playing with disease is a serious matter and as the guy at Haltwhistle found out can lead to a stretch of porridge. I sympathise with you, you are in the middle, just hope you dont get any more like it. In the Keilder area a lot of the deer have cancer in both lungs, liver and kidneys, but it is deemed not to make them unfit for eating, I wonder why they get it and not in other areas? Oh well good luck. Redfox Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eldon Posted January 6, 2008 Report Share Posted January 6, 2008 Shame nightforce but I can understand the situation. I use to have a large piece of permission and I was in a similar but different predicament. I didn't approve of how he kept his dogs, thought about shooting them to end their misery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orka Akinse Posted January 6, 2008 Report Share Posted January 6, 2008 Difficult call NF. Perhaps a way forward would be to shoot a little more and if you find another with similar symptoms perhaps you could talk to him again? Or get permission on neighbouring land and if you drop a similar beast, see if they will let you report it? Now before we all get our knickers in knots, I ain't condoning what is happening here..........but ........... NF is in a no win situation and I'm just tryin to see if we can find a work thro' for him. Good luck buddy OA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stag1933 Posted January 6, 2008 Report Share Posted January 6, 2008 Hi OA & RF. Yes, the beast was normal in every other way. I had a much more dramatic find in a Red Stag which also appeared to be normal many years ago. When I pulled out its kidneys one fell into two pieces and what appeared to be a large blood-clot was infact a huge kidney stone. It would appear that malfunction of ONE kidney does not cause serious difference of outward appearance to the human eye but must be an exceedingly painful affliction. I have taken the picture below a few minutes ago. Both stones have been in a box with badges, retrieved bullets etc so are becoming rather polished now. I also once found twin foetus in a Red Hind, an event which triggered a lifelong friendship with the late Lea McNally who himself bred twin Red calves from one of his Hinds whilst he was at Torridon. In the old days I was not in the regular habit of carrying a camera but today with tiny, lightweight digitals there is no excuse for not doing so. HWH. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orka Akinse Posted January 7, 2008 Report Share Posted January 7, 2008 Stagg could I add your photo's to my collection please? That must have hurt like hell, having that inside you. So what causes it then, is it the same as us humans i.e. too much calcium in the food? We get it from dairy products bot where do deer get it from and in sufficient quantities to cause a brick like that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stag1933 Posted January 7, 2008 Report Share Posted January 7, 2008 Hi OA. Help yourself to the pics. I have just re-done the `stones` so that you have a true indication of actual size. When you consider just how much calcium etc. is required to grow a huge set of antlers on a Stag it really makes you wonder. HWH. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orka Akinse Posted January 7, 2008 Report Share Posted January 7, 2008 Thanks stagg I appreciate it. Now I feel a complete Tw*t, I completely forgot the need for calcium for antler growth My only defence was that we were talking Red Hinds But thanks Stagg you were so nice about it But your right, they need lots of calcium, I have never seen a deer with kidney stones before in over ten years of stalking so I guess it can't be such a big problem, stags use it for antler growth & hinds must just get rid of it? If anyone has the correct analogy of what happens I would be glad to hear it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pete01 Posted January 8, 2008 Report Share Posted January 8, 2008 If anyone has the correct analogy of what happens I would be glad to hear it. The main job of the kidneys is to remove wastes from the blood and return the cleaned blood back to the body. The kidneys also control the balance of water and salt in the body, and are involved in the production of Vitamin D and erythropoietin, a hormone that stimulates bone marrow to produce red blood cells. A kidney stone can develop when certain chemicals in urine form crystals that stick together. The crystals may grow into a stone ranging in size from a grain of sand to a golf ball. Most stones form in the kidneys. Very small stones can pass through the urinary system without causing problems. Most stones (70 to 80 percent) are made of calcium oxalate. A smaller number are made of uric acid or cystine. Normally, urine contains chemicals which prevent crystals from forming. However, some animals seem to be more prone to kidney stones than others. Kidney stones have several factors which contribute to their formation: * Consuming too much calcium oxalate or food high in uric acid in an animals diet * Drinking too little fluid * Blockage of the urinary tract * Certain metabolic diseases * Recurrent urinary tract infections Hope that helps. p.s. if that liver had fluke as so many have stated I'll eat my hat. JMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eldon Posted January 8, 2008 Report Share Posted January 8, 2008 Go on then pete, whats your opinion on the liver? You seem knowledgable on this please enlighten us. I have seen similar colouration on rabbits liver and always presumed it to be a worm/ fluke type disease. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pete01 Posted January 8, 2008 Report Share Posted January 8, 2008 Eldon I replied some time ago. I think its on page one if you care to read the thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orka Akinse Posted January 8, 2008 Report Share Posted January 8, 2008 [/iThey look and from your description read like. The macroparasite infection Sarcocystis. More commonly found associated with the heart but can also be associated with the lymphoid system in the liver. Ok Pete whats that in English for us poor simple folk? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eldon Posted January 9, 2008 Report Share Posted January 9, 2008 Steady on pete only asking? You obviously are linked to the veterinary or medical profession, maybe you could lower your tone to offer us menials some advice? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest fern Posted January 10, 2008 Report Share Posted January 10, 2008 Hi guys just picked up on this one and finding it very interesting,so might as well add my ten pence worth . Not nit pickin NF but got your lymph nodes a wee bit muddled, node on the liver is the hepatic,messenteric nodes are found between the coils of the intestines so you probably burried them with the rest of the gralloch (do stalkers really do that????) Spots on the liver COULD have been caused by embryo tapeworms passing through the liver, in which case you might have seen watery cysts in the abdominal cavity, but could have gone unnoticed. fern Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stag1933 Posted January 10, 2008 Report Share Posted January 10, 2008 Hi `fern`. I was of the opinion that the lymph nodes on the liver were the`portal`, is `hepatic` another name for the same thing ? HWH. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratwhiskers Posted January 11, 2008 Report Share Posted January 11, 2008 Stag. In a word..... Yup! lf you check out the add on l posted earlier it gives the details on the first page. Regards. Ratty. .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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