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What disease is this?


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Hi all,

I have only shot 4 deer so far and have only butchered one completely and this will have been my second. I have watched some very experienced stalkers gralloching and butchering deer a number of times before. I shot a young doe the other afternoon and it was in very poor condition (why it got the bullet). I could feel most of the bones very easily and presumed it was because the mother wasn't present, due to it having been shot by the stalker previously or hit by a car. Once I gralloched it and got it home, I opened her up and removed the pluck, I first checked the liver and it had some (roughly 15 in total) white/cream spots on the outside, (visible in the photos). I cut through the organ and it revealed a series of holes about 3mm in diameter running through. There were those spots inside as well and when squeezed they acted like a big zit! This continued throughout the liver, then I checked the Mesenteric lymph nodes near the liver and these were inlarged.

http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff247/n...os/P1000095.jpg

http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff247/n...os/P1000096.jpg

 

I should of checked the lymph nodes on the intestines but the light was going and the mind was still on the shot, (very stupid!). I also checked the lungs and the right hand one in the picture was very red and inflamed, compared to the other and to anything I had seen before!

http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff247/n...os/P1000097.jpg

 

I wondered what the experienced stalkers on here knew about these conditions and whether the carcuss is fit for human consumption?

 

I'm sorry to waist your time but it could be very simple, I'm pretty sure it is not liver fluke because there were no clear cells coming out when I cut through the liver.

 

Thanks for your time and knowledge.

 

Dan

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Was the animal in an area where there were cattle or sheep?

 

Looking at the pics and from your description of the general poor condition of the animal pre shot, I would suggest that the lungs have been damaged by an infection of parasitic pneumonia caused by either sheep or cattel worm.

 

The liver, well it could be fluke, after all the animals natuarl defence system was not coping so the invasion into the liver could have caused the pustules.

 

Would I eat it - no, I don't think so.

 

 

Whats everyone elses view?

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hi there night force fistley do you still have the pluck ?

after reading your post i have just rang the forestry head stalker who i shoot with frequently and sent him the photos you have posted he says it can be 1 of 3 things

white spot like you get in rabbits wich is coksyleiosis this is an avain desease but can be passed to other animals

the starting of liver fluke becouse of the inlarging of the Mesenteric lymph nodes

and the last one he said could be tb and after his years of working with the minesty he is leaning towards the last two

thease are notifiable deseases and you should contact the minestry vet for your region giving the time date area and if poss map refrance of where the shot was taken and if you have it the pluck they will want it

becouse its notifiable this report will be documented to all the diffrent agencys that need to know and the rest of your deer population can be monitered i hope this helps you mate if you need anymore info on who to call or where to go drop me a line and ill get the info for you from the forestry stalker

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Guest pete01

Photos.They all worked fine for me.

 

Lung damage is as Ronin states.

 

As for the liver.

 

They look and from your description read like. The macroparasite infection Sarcocystis. More commonly found associated with the heart but can also be associated with the lymphoid system in the liver.

 

Hope that helps.

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The pustles on the liver look to be almost certainly liver fluke.

 

However the lungs I am not sure about.

 

Photo's should never replace a hands on ispection, so I would take it to a vet from DEFRA. If you go to their website they will have the nearest contact numbers for you.

 

Would you please let us all know what the infection(s) are after you have had confirmation?

 

I would also like you permission to keep a copy of the photo's and use them for training purposes? I train deer stalkers and getting good quality pictures such as these detailing infections are rare.

 

Thanks

 

OA

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Thanks a lot for all the replies lads. Its very kind that you (reloaderdan) passed on the pics to others in the know! There is a Defra place just down the road so I'll give them a ring and drop it in tomorrow if they can deal with these things. I tried to research it before and it sounded close to TB or liver fluke. Orka Akinse - yes that is fine to use the photos, by the way what type of training do you do?

 

Thanks again - any more opinions?

 

Dan

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0000237es3.jpg

0000238xc2.jpg

heres a liver a got out of a young buck a few years ago, it had a bad dose of liver cists, the liver was soild to touch , i cut it open with a knife and a pint of green goo came out not very nice at all, but it tasted the same as normal, rgds dave. :rolleyes::(;)

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Oh dear. That is what I was told by my college lecturer who are supposed to know a lot about stalking and they teach the DSC 1, I'll tell him off and boil that knife out!!

 

Thanks for the point!

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no probs nf if it is one of the bad 2 tb or fluke then your whole deer population and surounding livestock could be at risk its down to responsable shooters/stalkers to do a full hands on pluck and take the time to look for anything untoward only by looking after our quarry can we look after our sport and in some cases our jobs(mine included).

well done nf in spotting this and taking the right action and not just slinging the pluck for charlie

please keep us updated as to what happens

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i cut it open with a knife and a pint of green goo came out not very nice at all, but it tasted the same as normal, rgds dave. :lol::lol::lol:

 

Have you any idea what effect that has on a chap who's eating his tea (fish chips and VERY mushy peas) :lol::P

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ds2 It wasnt a Haggis, you wild scotsmen will eat anything :lol::lol::lol:

 

I would lean towards TB or and or liver fluke, TB can form pustules in other organs like the liver and in deer thay stay liquid rather than paste/gritty as in cattle. There will be a DEFRA animal health lab somwhere near you and a Defra apointed veterinary Officer, they should be in your local phone book, contact them. Dont freeze the pluck keep it in sealed up plastic bags cold enough tonight in an outside shed and get it to them asap, bag up the animal carcase and I would prepare to burn it. Dont put it near any other household foodstuffs and wash your hands in a weak bleach solution every time you handle the bags. It may well be minor but dont take chances until you know, TB and Johnes's disease ( a tubercular disease ) are more common than people think particularly with the massive increase in Badger numbers.

Redfox

Ps and very well spotted and correct actions.

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Thanks again for all the replys! I have just spoken to an ex FC head stalker through a friend and he seems to think its fluke, but interestingly he shot a doe this week about 10 miles away from mine and it was in the same condition and it had fluke. I'm just young and learning the ropes so I'm trying to take things on as quickly as possible, so its very kind to have all this wealth of knowledge to sap from!

 

Many thanks

 

Dan

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Guest rogern

"There where those spots inside as well and when squeezed they acted like a big zit!"

 

Dan, My advice to you is to NEVER cut open/squeeze or puncture any 'zits' nodes, cysts, warts lesions etc in a deer.

 

If you do with a TB infected animal you could get yourself into serious health probs.

 

If you shot it because it looked 'sick' I wouldnt even dream of eating it or putting it into the food chain. Burn it!

 

Just my opinion

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Hi all,

 

Update!

 

I took the whole carcuss and pluck to the ex FC headstalker just incase it would save DEFRA any time. Well he went over the carcuss with me and it is not TB or Fluke, this is due to the lungs and heart being very smooth and soft, not gritty. The lymph nodes weren't actually inlarged, but they looked bigger compared to others i had seen, also these contained no puss but were grey inside. We checked the nodes on the bottom of the jaw and these were fine. The blood in the right hand lung could be due to me neck shooting the beast and blood being inhaled.

 

However, the kidneys contained a huge amount of sists and he has never seen them in this condition before, he was unsure what was affecting both the liver and kidneys but it can't be very serious, due to the rest being ok. I am going to take it to college and let the lecturers see it and if they come up blank its going to Defra out of interest. Also the stalker cut nearly every organ and lump up and I quiered this but he gave an obvious answer, "How can you see what's wrong with it otherwise".

 

Kidney!

P1000098.jpg

 

Hope this helps, if anybody has any further ideas please say, by the way OA can use the photo.

 

Many thanks

 

Dan

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Without being rude an ex FC stalker will have seen a lot of deer, but he is not a veterinary surgeon. So how can he say I dont know what it is, but its not dangerous!!

Stick with the experts and let them see it, incidentally in deer TB lesions are not normally gritty they stay smooth semi liquid and the lymph nodes may not be enlarged until later in the disease development.

The official advice from DEFRA is if it appears unusual in anyway, do not incise ( cut anything) send or take it straight to the nearest animal health centre. They will tell you quickly if the carcase must be destroyed or if it safe to eat.

Redfox

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+2

 

lf the liver looked that bad, and when cut into didn't spill fluke worms out all over the place l'd be taking it straight to the DEFRA Vet centre, if only for my peace of mind. As Redfox and Ronin say you can't beat the experts on this kind of thing. As for boiling out your knife, you should be wearing gloves while doing any gralloch/larder work and sterilise out all your utensils as a matter of course your lecturer should have informed you of this on your course.

 

Dan. R you doing your course at N/Rigg by any chance??

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Dan

 

Many thanks mate for the use of the pictures.... really appreciated.

 

I too do not wish to appear rude or to diss anyone (see I can be trendy :) ) but I have to agree with Rats, Ronin and Redfox please Dan stop messing about with opinions that are I'm sure, well intended but misplaced. You have one very sick (albeit dead) beast on your hands and you need to get professional help with this one buddy. Get it sorted now! Phone DEFRA they have a 24/7 service.

 

Let us know how you get on.

 

OA

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Guest 308Panther

I dont know what type of disease this thing has

and I not even gonna try and diagnose something

I have never seen before.

 

My opinion is much the same as the others.....

 

Get this thing into a vet.....

and destroy anything you didnt take in.

 

This thing isnt fit to eat.

 

I can understand your curiosity.....but this is best left to

someone with a medical background and in a controlled enviroment.

 

Seeing how the liver and kidnys have been so affected,it leads me to

beleive that whatever this deer has may be blood related.As both are

basically filters for the blood.

Just my .02

 

Best of luck.

 

308Panther

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