Help getting setup and started.

[CraigL]

Hi Guys,

 

Great forum, thanks to those involved.

 

I'm looking for a little advice. I'd like to get into some type of tactical competition shooting, and need to know what's available and how to get started. I'm based in Kent, but can travel if necessary, so I suppose I'm looking for a 'local' range to pop past and get an idea of what's going on. Any suggestions?

 

Secondly, I'm going to need a rifle. From what I've read, AI is the way to go. I'd prefer to buy once (although easier said than done), so any suggestions on whether this should be AI, AW or AX? I'm going to stick with 308. The Unique Alpine also always grabs my attention, should I forget it for this discipline? I'm going to avoid a custom rifle for the moment until I know what I really want, so I'd like to stick to higher end factory for now.

 

I'm not new to firearms, but never been down this route before and always wanted to get into shooting bolt actions. 2012 is the year of the rifle for me.

 

ATB

Craig

[Ronin]

There is a lovely Blaser Tac 2 in 308 for sale in the sale section,,,,,

[terryh]

Craig,

 

There are a couple of clubs that shoot down at the coastal military ranges (Lydd/Hythe from memory that you might want to go and have a look at / talk to before you decide on a rifle i.e try before you buy, I agree about buying once but make sure you're going to buy the right one. Get along to one of the CSR matches at bisley and watch, I beleive there is a 4 gun comp coming up that should show you the closest we currently have to practical.

 

Any of the AI's will work and will retain value. 308's a good cartridge but with and AI if you want to progress to the more 'tacticool' cartridges (260 or 6.5x47's etc.) you can do a barrel swap easily (I did not say cheap, jusr 'easy' ). The Sako TRG's always seem to perform so could be added to your list, possibly the DTA bull pup. I must say I shot the AX recently and thought it was rather good

 

Allow a good bit of funds for scope+mounts (inportant bit this and often forgotten), bi-pod and a few other accesories

 

Any particular reason for staying away from a custom?

 

I assume you will also be reloading - yes?

 

As Ronin pointed out the Blaser is a good rifle but I'd add this point to think about, the Blaser action is unique and so long as you're never going to buy another design i.e. normal bolt action or possibly a 22RF to practice with, then they are OK. The reason for saying this is if you practice with this straight pull design great, but if you start using standard bolt action designs and have to shoot under the clock you're adding things to think about and under pressure you'll revert to 'reflex'.

 

Brgds Terry

[bradders]

There really isn"'t much in the way of 'tactical competition' in the UK, certainly not in the South anyway.

They do run some stuff up at Diggle, but I haven't any familiarity of it.

 

Terry is right though about getting along to one of our CSR matches at Bisley, it might be more than enough challenge for you.

 

We did run a "sniper" competition last year at Bisley that was hugely successful and plan to repeat it in August.

This is ideal for "tactical" type rifles and demanded some fine shooting to do well in.

 

The problem with this is that it always takes the same people to organize and run these events, and if they're already occupied, they will never happen

[ChrisF]

IN my considered option , having AWs & AWSMs & a AX338 , I would stick to the AW series rifle in a 308 class round .

 

You could always put the new skins on a AW if you wanted some STRANGE , guys you now what I mean .

 

Get the folder , as its a very handy option , and one I would not be with out now .

 

You will of course need a S&B PMII as well , and then other than type of can , you are sorted .

 

Later Chris

[CraigL]

There is a lovely Blaser Tac 2 in 308 for sale in the sale section,,,,,

 

Mmm, thanks and they are lovely looking rifles, however I have owned a Glock in .40 before and these two seem to share similar internet rumours.

 

Craig,

 

There are a couple of clubs that shoot down at the coastal military ranges (Lydd/Hythe from memory that you might want to go and have a look at / talk to before you decide on a rifle i.e try before you buy, I agree about buying once but make sure you're going to buy the right one. Get along to one of the CSR matches at bisley and watch, I beleive there is a 4 gun comp coming up that should show you the closest we currently have to practical.

 

Any of the AI's will work and will retain value. 308's a good cartridge but with and AI if you want to progress to the more 'tacticool' cartridges (260 or 6.5x47's etc.) you can do a barrel swap easily (I did not say cheap, jusr 'easy' ). The Sako TRG's always seem to perform so could be added to your list, possibly the DTA bull pup. I must say I shot the AX recently and thought it was rather good

 

Allow a good bit of funds for scope+mounts (inportant bit this and often forgotten), bi-pod and a few other accesories

 

Any particular reason for staying away from a custom?

 

I assume you will also be reloading - yes?

 

As Ronin pointed out the Blaser is a good rifle but I'd add this point to think about, the Blaser action is unique and so long as you're never going to buy another design i.e. normal bolt action or possibly a 22RF to practice with, then they are OK. The reason for saying this is if you practice with this straight pull design great, but if you start using standard bolt action designs and have to shoot under the clock you're adding things to think about and under pressure you'll revert to 'reflex'.

 

Brgds Terry

 

Thanks for the info on Lydd / Hythe, I'll check them out. I'm going to try get over to Bisley for the 4 gun comp that you mention, and also try check out McQueens.

 

I was thinking 308 to try standardise for the future, and I'm hoping they'll work out a little cheaper too. I would like a custom at some stage, but when I do I'd like the experience to know exactly what I'm after and at the moment I don't quite.

 

I'll be reloading at some stage, but not from the beginning. I'll be keeping the brass though.

 

Thanks for the point of a practice setup, it very valid. I was initially think along the 10/22 lines, but that may defeat the purpose a little.

 

There really isn"'t much in the way of 'tactical competition' in the UK, certainly not in the South anyway.

They do run some stuff up at Diggle, but I haven't any familiarity of it.

 

Terry is right though about getting along to one of our CSR matches at Bisley, it might be more than enough challenge for you.

 

We did run a "sniper" competition last year at Bisley that was hugely successful and plan to repeat it in August.

This is ideal for "tactical" type rifles and demanded some fine shooting to do well in.

 

The problem with this is that it always takes the same people to organize and run these events, and if they're already occupied, they will never happen

 

Maybe tactical and sniper are the wrong terms, I really just looking for some try of activity that makes you think, is testing while being enjoyable and ultimately just getting into some regular shooting again.

 

 

IN my considered option , having AWs & AWSMs & a AX338 , I would stick to the AW series rifle in a 308 class round .

 

You could always put the new skins on a AW if you wanted some STRANGE , guys you now what I mean .

 

Get the folder , as its a very handy option , and one I would not be with out now .

 

You will of course need a S&B PMII as well , and then other than type of can , you are sorted .

 

Later Chris

 

Thanks Chris, I had almost dismissed the folder idea, why do you find it so handy?

 

Looking at prices of the AX vs AW, the AW could work out a little more considering the included 'accessories' on the AX line. Is the AE is affordable, I'll really need to justify the additional for the AW / AX. I've every intention of getting a S & B PMII, but I may need to glue on a set of irons initially.

 

Thanks for the advice all, much appreciated.

[bradders]

 

 

Maybe tactical and sniper are the wrong terms, I really just looking for some try of activity that makes you think, is testing while being enjoyable and ultimately just getting into some regular shooting again.

 

 

Then CSR is possibly what you're .looking for.

Fun, challenging and a good bunch of people.

We hold monthly matches, and if Bisley isn't too far, it's the place to be on 1st weekends.

 

We have a hugely varied CoF mixture from 100-500 with both slow and rapid fire.

You will enjoy it, every one does and you'll be made welcome.

 

Also, it's about getting in with the right people, and it's from our gang that you'll find the people that organize these matches, so worry less about the gun, calibre, scope, ammo and skins etc, and just get along :-)

[CraigL]

Thanks bradders, I'll be looking you guys up then at Bisley.

 

Apologies for the spelling and grammar, can I blame the iPad and it being late last night.

[ChrisF]

Right hopefully the following will be of use to you , in deciding what to get & what options to spec the rifle as .

 

The AX338 is about 10% dearer than the AWSM when I last looked , not sure about the 308 AXs .

 

Be aware from Sporting Services the AWs come with a bipod included in price , and the AXs come with no bipod included in price ( and as such once you work that into you requirement , price is maybe close enough not to be a concern ) .

 

RE : options

 

Folding stock ( make sure its got a adjustable cheek rest , as they did make them with out as well ) , the stock should look like the AICS 2.0 rear if that makes sense .

 

Folder , obviuosly it makes the OAL shorter for transporting ( I have very small car , and folded it fits east/west behind the front seats .

 

Less obviuos , Most rifles with scopes with a 50mm or larger front lens , will require a raised cheek rest so you can rest your head at the right height etc , as such , this cheek piece will stop you removing the bolt from your rifle and also get in the way of a cleaning rod .

If you go to most ranges that have a RCO/RO etc , they will have you removing your bolt from the rifle everytime you move off a mound/firing posn .

 

So rifles like Sako TRGs & Mcmillan stocked rifles require you to remove or lower the cheekrest to be able to remove bolt , some have thumbscrews , some have allen head bolts .

 

You have the option on the AWs to use the AI dovetail ( at no extra cost ) , or have AI install a steel pitcanny rail on the top ( at alot extra cost ) .

The AI dovetail is fine on the AWs ( and allow the scope to set closer to the bore by about 5-6mm ) , so the real benefit of a Pitcanyy rail is IF you intended to swap scopes between rifles alot , or intended to run forward mounted night vision gear , which would use the increased range of mounting posn front to rear .

 

SO unless you are going to swap scopes or use NV gear , the Pitcanny rail is a expensive waste of time .

Also be aware that the AX308 will put the scope alot higher than any AW/AWSM etc .

 

RE: Quick Adjustable cheekrest & pull , very expensive useless option , unless you are going to be wearing body armour one day and a t-shirt the next .

 

The std AW folder with the adjustable cheek rest , is adjustable in both cheekrest & pull with just a allen key .

 

So in short donot order with QA stock options .

 

RE : Rear mono pod , I am undecided on this option , and have not really used it , to me its a 50/50 deal as to wether to get it or not .

 

RE : Barrels , you have a range to chose from , and its up to you , but its not super important , as barrels are quickly changed , that options like folder , rail , mono pod are NOT able to be changed once the rifle leaves the factory .

 

Later Chris

[brown dog]

Right hopefully the following will be of use to you , in deciding what to get & what options to spec the rifle as .

 

The AX338 is about 10% dearer than the AWSM when I last looked , not sure about the 308 AXs .

 

Be aware from Sporting Services the AWs come with a bipod included in price , and the AXs come with no bipod included in price ( and as such once you work that into you requirement , price is maybe close enough not to be a concern ) .

 

RE : options

 

Folding stock ( make sure its got a adjustable cheek rest , as they did make them with out as well ) , the stock should look like the AICS 2.0 rear if that makes sense .

 

Folder , obviuosly it makes the OAL shorter for transporting ( I have very small car , and folded it fits east/west behind the front seats .

 

Less obviuos , Most rifles with scopes with a 50mm or larger front lens , will require a raised cheek rest so you can rest your head at the right height etc , as such , this cheek piece will stop you removing the bolt from your rifle and also get in the way of a cleaning rod .

If you go to most ranges that have a RCO/RO etc , they will have you removing your bolt from the rifle everytime you move off a mound/firing posn .

 

So rifles like Sako TRGs & Mcmillan stocked rifles require you to remove or lower the cheekrest to be able to remove bolt , some have thumbscrews , some have allen head bolts .

 

You have the option on the AWs to use the AI dovetail ( at no extra cost ) , or have AI install a steel pitcanny rail on the top ( at alot extra cost ) .

The AI dovetail is fine on the AWs ( and allow the scope to set closer to the bore by about 5-6mm ) , so the real benefit of a Pitcanyy rail is IF you intended to swap scopes between rifles alot , or intended to run forward mounted night vision gear , which would use the increased range of mounting posn front to rear .

 

SO unless you are going to swap scopes or use NV gear , the Pitcanny rail is a expensive waste of time .

Also be aware that the AX308 will put the scope alot higher than any AW/AWSM etc .

 

RE: Quick Adjustable cheekrest & pull , very expensive useless option , unless you are going to be wearing body armour one day and a t-shirt the next .

 

The std AW folder with the adjustable cheek rest , is adjustable in both cheekrest & pull with just a allen key .

 

So in short donot order with QA stock options .

 

RE : Rear mono pod , I am undecided on this option , and have not really used it , to me its a 50/50 deal as to wether to get it or not .

 

RE : Barrels , you have a range to chose from , and its up to you , but its not super important , as barrels are quickly changed , that options like folder , rail , mono pod are NOT able to be changed once the rifle leaves the factory .

 

Later Chris

 

Chris, Excellent summary - I'd agree with all of that.

[bradders]

 

If you go to most ranges that have a RCO/RO etc , they will have you removing your bolt from the rifle everytime you move off a mound/firing posn .

 

 

Well I don't know what ranges you go to/are talking about, but I've never come across this .

Usually a chamber flag will suffice or on MoD ranges an "ease springs" at the end of a particular practise will suffice

[CraigL]

Thanks Chris, that's some really useful information and many things that I didn't consider. I'd always wanted a folding stock, but didn't know how to justify it, now I have a reason. Again, I always thought the picatinny rail was machined into the action, so it's good to know it isn't. I'll likely go with the dovetail then, if I end up with an AW. My only concern on the AX, other than not being quite sure I like the look of it, is the magazine. I've used rifles where you have to rock the mag in and although not a big deal, I feel it's a step backwards. Any idea thoughts on this?

[ChrisF]

RE : RO /RCO , bolt removal , to clear rifle before moving off firing posn/mound etc , been in most NZ NRA shoots I have been to , I live in NEW ZEALAND , so some of our range rules maybe a little different from the UK etc .

 

RE : AX series mag cut out and rocking action to place nag on rifle , similar to the FAL/AK assault rifles , yeap a step back as far as I am concerned , and if you have not guessed it , the AX mags will not go into AW/AWM rifles , the only AX I have is the 338 model which uses a new big action un like the 308 AX which uses the AW action , in the AX338 the mag is like a scaled up 308 AW mag with a forward lip , the AX338 mag seems to be made from quite thin sheet metal & as such flexes a bit .

 

One other reason to favour the AW over the AX model in 308 cals , is with the AW , you can IF you want drop the suppressed 16.2 inche barrel & long suppressor on the rifle , I doubt you could run that set up on the AX308 due to the way the octagonal profile hugs the barrel .

 

Most civie owners will not run the latest forward mounting NV/Thermal sights due to cost & restrictions , so Main benefit of the AX will not be needed or used , I also see the possible use of a using a custom Low CoG bipod ala ( trigger50s or TRG-42 Old ) , this has not been realised yet , both of these being made easier by the octagonal profile .

 

Trust me , I have put off buying AI rifles for a long time , tiring to say to my self that they are OVER priced etc , and have used a lot of other sniper type rifles , Sako TRG-21/41 , Sako TRG-22 , Parker Hale M85 & M87 , Surgeon SA , XL customs all very good rifles in their own right , BUT as soon as I had my AW308 in hand and fired IT , I order 3 more straight away , Opps .

 

If I could only own 1 rifle it would be a AI , and if I ever had to use one for combat , IF I had any say in it , it would be a AI , they are that good , I hate to say .

 

Once you price out a top custom build using top grade components , like Surgeon , Bagder , Bartlein , McM , etc you will find that you have a rifle that is A ) the same price as a AI , or more expensive .

 

Later Chris

[ChrisF]

Thanks BD & guys , glad to help , as there is a lot of options that need to be considered & not much actual advice given on AI website etc , as to the pros & cans of the options etc .

Any way here's a recent pic of my AW 308 w/PMII 4-16x50