Laurie

When first introduced the 6.5 Creedmoor version was listed as 24-inches on Sabatti's website and that's what the original deliveries were. An acquaintance who is in the gun trade fancied one, but as it was entirely for range use queried whether 26-inches was available and told 'yes - as a special order, will take an estimated six weeks' - 3 months later he was still waiting. Then .... every one arriving was 26-inches in this calibre. 28-inches I've not seen quoted anywhere and it would make no sense for a rifle in this category / market.

That's the first I've heard of this - thank you for the link Laurent. I'm not too surprised - all powder manufacturers are moving this way, most likely to stay competitive in military ammunition markets, but we recreational shooters get the benefits too.

RS40 is too fast burning for the 260 Rem and 6.5 Creedmoor which need powders around 4350 burning speeds - so the three 4350s (i/c Lovex SO70), RS60/62, IMR-4350/4451; H4350/414; Viht N150/550/160. RS40 is the canister version of the propellant used in the Swiss 5.6mm Gewehr Patrone 90, (GP 90) cartridge, their take on the later heavy (63gn in Swiss form) bullet 5.56X45mm Nato round with which it is interchangeable. It will give very high velocities in .308 Win with 155gn class bullets, but isn't as well suited to heavier bullets in the cartridge as RS50 and RS52.

I suspect the ELD-Ms are struggling to obtain a foothold against existing Berger products for the serious long-range competitor, in many calibres anyway. Looking at US forums, the new 6.5s seem to be gaining traction especially amongst 6.5 Creedmoor shooters. The 143gn 'X' hunting version is particularly highly regarded for both precision and its expansion characteristics. Now that we can again buy and load expanding bullets for any purpose, this could well be a very good choice for the multi-role shooter who wants to use a deerstalking load on paper. Other calibres? Judging by some heavy discounting by the major US suppliers, I doubt if they're doing very well. I know one top GB FTR competitor tried the .308 208gn ELD-M and quickly went back to the 200gn Berger Hybrid. They shot very well at shorter distances, but simply didn't match the Berger's 1,000 yards performance and consistency. Berger has really got 308 sewn up - there is at least one outstanding model in every weight category - the 155.5gn BT, 185gn BT, and 200gn Hybrid. A significant number of top northern FTR shooters still use the older 210gn Berger BT when shooting 'heavies'. For many short to mid-range shooters, or those who don't need 1,000 yard 'ultra' performance, they may be very good choices - but only if they offer a substantial discount to Berger prices. So far at any rate, many models don't appear to justify premium pricing. In that case, they may have to be judged against Sierra's TMKs rather than Bergers.

I've been asked several times now if I've tried them ... the answer so far is 'no'. There has been a flood of new bullets recently, and I shoot 308 a lot less these days than I once did. My limited experience with the TMKs - 160gn 7mm only - has been very good. I have some other versions in other calibres which I'll try in due course, but haven't acquired any 30s yet. As I'm about to use my last 105 Berger 155.5s up in a test series for Targetshooter online, I might buy a couple of hundred 168 and 175gn versions to see how they go.

I've had excellent results with this bullet in Lapua Palma brass over RS52 at getting on for 3,000 fps. Unlike the 155.5 and 185 BT Long-Range designs, it's fussy about seating depth / jump. To get it to shoot, I had to treat it like a VLD and put into the lands. Others have said the same thing to me. (So far, in 308 at any rate, every Hybrid has behaved differently for me. IME they are NOT the length-tolerant design Berger claims - can't comment on other calibres.) There is still the residual 'taint' of the 168gn weight too for the calibre. When I started with the 168 Hybrid, a surprising number of people said - no good at long range, all 168s are useless for that! Being jump-fussy, that alone understandably puts a lot of Effers off. If it's 'fussy', it might also be unpredictable / inconsistent. The 155.5 and 185 BTs are so tolerant, a slight change in die setting, bit of leade erosion etc doesn't affect performance, so just load the things up and go shoot ... and shoot ... and shoot. One less thing to worry about.

That's the theory anyway. Whether it works in practice, we'd have to see. The bullet has to be a good fit/match to the barrel in any event. Some bullets just don't shoot in some barrels. How I expect it'll work out is that you find something that is 'almost there' and also has a small ES/SD, and the tuner (hopefully!) does what it says on the tin and 'tunes' the load that last bit through a little adjustment to its setting.

The Labradar is sometimes falsely triggered by an adjacent shooter using something noisy, muzzle brake equipped jobs especially. The start emitting and recording trigger is sound - there are two small internal microphones about half way up the body, one on each side to allow placement either side of the firearm. Even shooting off benches placed pretty close together, if a neighbour's shot triggers the radar, the other person's bullet track bullet is off the device's axis and so you get an error reading saying it cannot track the shot, press enter to reset. The trigger sensitivity can be altered so by keeping it just behind your rifle's muzzle only a couple of inches away from the edge of the barrel and reducing the sensitivity level, you can cut out false triggers. When mounted on a bench using the optional purchase bench stand, my experience of others using this placement is that the audible trigger mechanism doesn't pick up on moderated rifles even when set to maximum sensitivity. This set-up may need a tripod allowing the device to be placed closer to the muzzle. There is an alternative trigger method, but it doesn't seem to be as reliable. On the original question re the MagnetoSpeed, I have seen the occasional rifle which gets away with little POI shift and no group changes - but I've yet to enjoy this myself having used all three main variants of the device during its life on maybe a dozen or so rifles. I have a shot 100 yard target somewhere that illustrates this graphically firing 15 rounds of the same 6.5-284 load in three 5-round groups. Fitting the bayo' on raised the POI around three-quarters MOA and moved it around half-MOA to one side. (Direction of change depends on the bayo' position in relation to the muzzle as it deflects exiting gasses which in turn slightly deflect the bullet.) Much more the the point, two 5-round groups shot with it off were in the 0.2 to 0.3 inch range in near perfect one-hole round patterns; with the bayo' on, the group was vertically strung and opened to somewhere between half and three quarter inch. I have also had it the other way round with a series of test groups of a powder / bullet in 7mm-08 all producing really tight three-round groups. Take the bayo' off and the combination simply wouldn't perform with any charge weight. Not too surprising - if it weren't so, people making and selling barrel tuners would be in breach of the Trades Descriptions Act! I should also say, I'm talking heavy barrel match rifles, some with pretty stiff actions like the Barnard Model P fully Devcon bedded, so no skinny whippy barrel sporters that will presumably be more heavily affected. So, I soon adopted the practice of load five or six rounds of everything new, use 1 shot per charge weight for a pressure / velocity test; then shoot the remainder in each batch for group. What I have found too is that shooting anything up to 10 or 12 velocity-finding shots over a large range of charges (2gn common, occasionally 3) at a single aiming mark, having the bayo' on seems to smooth POI and grouping out - sometimes the whole lot will go into a half-MOA group. What this has done for me is to overcome my past scepticism of the value of adjustable barrel tuners - my next rebarrel will have one installed to see how it works out. I should say that I am still a fan of the MagnetoSpeed - a huge step forwards over optical devices. However, the Labradar is better still, but it is of course considerably more expensive, and you must either have mains power on the firing point or power it with a high-capacity power pack for anything other than short sessions. The device eats batteries, even if switching it off or putting it into stand-by mode for breaks in shooting.

I wonder how long it'll be before rifle primers get the 'hard word' too from Project Reach or a similar environmental initiative. Their primary ingredient is still lead styphnate as it has been since the US Army pushed for a better, longer lasting, compound for the 1950s T65E3 / 7.62 Nato. Although there are lead-free primers, the US Army keeps rejecting them as they are nothing like as consistent, stable and long-lived. But that won't protect us civilian shooters indefinitely.

Returning to loads data for the cartridge, Sierra has just released a full new six page addition to its 5th edition reloading manual for the Creedmoor available online and providing a large range of powders for nine bullets from the 85gn HP to the 142gn MatchKing, also including the new 130gn Tipped MatchKing. https://sierrabulletsblog.com/2017/01/09/sierra-bullets-6-5-creedmoor-load-data/ Note the absence of any Viht loads unlike for many cartridges in the original print version of the edition. This isn't a reflection on Sierra's view of their product quality or applications, more I believe on Viht powders being regularly reported in American circles as hard to find and much more expensive than 'domestic' products these days. (The mirror position for us.) However, as Viht has a comprehensive loads data table now, that's not too much of an issue: http://www.vihtavuori.com/en/reloading-data/rifle-reloading/6-5-creedmoor.html One valuable addition in the Sierra tables is that of Canadian manufactured IMR 'Enduron' powders, IMR-4166 for light bullets and 4451 for 123gn and heavier models. IMR-4451 is an excellent substitute for H4350 in this and other cartridges, and one that we ought to get to know a bit better as it will be increasingly 'pushed' as a substitute here, especially as (unlike the Australian manufactured Hodgdon extruded grades), it is 'environmentally friendly'. (Look forward to increasing restrictions on some makes of powders on this side of the Atlantic as all sorts of long-used chemical ingredients are banned.) I tried IMR-4451 in the Creedmoor last year on a side by side basis against H4350 and got very similar (ie good) results with a 140gn bullet. I reckoned you needed getting on for an extra 1.0gn against the Hodgdon powder, and this is confirmed by the new Sierra data with increases of a half to 0.9gn depending on bullet weight.

The original post is a little ambiguous. I read it as Alcesgigas is considering using it on reds as a visitor to the UK. Others have taken it as a resident / potential resident therefore needing an FAC / variation. If it is for temporary UK use on a visit, the first thing would obviously be to approach shooting estates with a view to shooting availability costs etc, and also whether they are willing and able to countenance this 'cannon' (by UK deerstalking standards). If there is a suitable and happy host, it then becomes an issue presumably of obtaining a visitor's firearms licence and I've no idea at all how anybody gets them in normal circumstances and whether Police Scotland (assuming they issue it) would regard an extreme long-range 338 as OK in the circumstances. This might be a good question for the Stalking Directory Forum.

Viht N160 is just that bit slow burning and bulky for the 260 Rem and 6.5mm Creedmoor, so it restricts potential MVs compared to H4350, Reload Swiss RS62, RS60/Re17, Viht N550, IMR-4451 etc, etc. (That's probably why it's barely listed for 260 in the eight or nine US handloading manuals I own.) It's long been a very popular choice in 260 Rem though with 140s with British tactical shooters and provided you don't need top velocities, can be difficult to better. With the 260 and Creedmoor being very similar in their internal ballistics, what works in the 260 usually works equally well in the Creedmoor too. I reckon a lot of the N160 loads people use likely run at 50,000-53,000 psi and with 140gn 6.5mm bullets' ballistics capabilities they still make superb 600 yard performers and remain good enough to shoot well at 1,000 or more with 26-inch barrel MVs around 2,700 fps. At these sorts of pressures and with a relatively cool burning single-based powder, these two 6.5s' brass and barrel life will be excellent, a big plus for many rapid fire / high round count competition users. With less recoil / rifle disturbance than 308 Win and better mid/long-range ballistics, they're superior in every respect to it except for barrel life, but that gap can be narrowed a bit with N160. If people must go for ultimate performance in MV terms, Reload Swiss RS60 (Alliant Re17), N550/560, Ramshot Hunter etc will give another 100-150 fps to 140s in this pair, but to be honest, I wince whenever I see people on forums recommending them as the first powders to try.

Of the powders you've tried, H4350 is usually regarded as the one most likely to produce good results, so you can use it as an initial benchmark. Try varying the load to tune the vertical out. I'd suggest starting a little below 41gn and working up in small steps to 41.8 or 41.9gn. Do it in threes or fours with 0.2 or 0.3gn steps. If that doesn't work, it may be that your barrel simply doesn't care for the 136gn Scenar-L, or that you need to make some radical changes in seating depths. The 136 is a VLD type design with quite an aggressive secant ogive. They tend to perform best when either seated into the start of the lands or paradoxically given a very large jump - some bullets in some barrels needing 50-80 thou' jumps. The Team Lapua F-Class guys in the USA were testing this bullet in 6.5X47s when they were first introduced a couple of years back and there has been a deafening silence since suggesting it's not been a productive exercise. I'd recommend the 140gn Nosler Custom Comp, 142gn Sierra MK, 140gn Berger LR BT, or 139gn Lapua Scenar. They are all usually easy to tune and most barrel internal configurations seem to like them. The old 139 is a wonderful bullet, and cheaper than the 136 'L'. With any of this quartet, seat them to jump 10 or 15 thou' as per personal preference - I always kick off with 15 with bullets like these and only rarely have to change afterwards. Stick to H4350 initially if you change the bullet, then you can try the other powders once you find a bullet showing promise. The Creedmoor isn't a particularly fussy design so far as I've seen to date - a bit like 308 in that get a bullet that the barrel likes and a large number of powders give good results.

I'd recommend RS62 instead of RS60 with all bullet weights from 120gn and above. I've not tried it yet myself, but with H. VarGet working very well with 120-123gn bullets (used in some factory loadings), Reload Swiss RS52 should work equally well with these bullet weights and very likely better. For 120s to 130s, Viht N150 is a better match than N160. The new IMR-4451 is an alternative to H4350 (both powders imported and distributed across Europe by Edgar Brothers in the UK) and will likely have better availability given the ongoing supply chain problems between Australia and the USA for Hodgdon's ADI / Thales manufactured extruded grades.

0.298"? Otherwise, it's well on the way to being a 7mm!

RS52 or RS62? I hope you meant 62. RS52 would work but it's a bit too fast burning unless you're loading light varmint bullets, and it will run as hot as RS60 / E17. RS62 has a similar burning rate to E17 but runs cooler being single-base. It should be suited to the 6X47 Lapua with mid weight to heavy bullets. If you're looking for full cases and high MVs for 105s also consider RS70, 'high-energy' again, but slower burning (similar to Re22).

RS rifle powder prices are close to Viht's, marginally cheaper (like Viht sold in kilo tubs). Sadly, the former imported in bulk and bottled here 'cheapo' versions are gone unless you are lucky enough to find an unsold one somewhere.

That doesn't surprise me Mark. So far, I've not found an application that suits the difficult-to-get-hold-of Hodgdon VarGet where RS52 doesn't do equally well, sometimes better - a very useful number.

There is NO 'Elcho' equivalent to RS62. RS50 (single-base) = TR140 RS60 (high-energy / infused nitrolglycerine / RS EI deterrent process) = Alliant Re17 = Elcho 17 RS62 (long-grained, single-base) was developed originally for use in .270 Winchester and is a nice basic powder for use in 270, .280 Rem, 7X64, .30-06, mid size 6.5s ('47 Lapua, .260 Rem, 6.5 Creedmoor), and mid sized sevens (7mm-08, 7X57) and suchlike.

Here's the link on suppliers on the propellants.co.uk website, the one set up for RS powders. http://www.propellants.co.uk/where-to-buy.html Aberdeenshire seems closest to you. The high-energy powders are likely a bit temperature affected because of their nitroglycerine content - that's RS40, 52, 60, 70 and 80. RS62 is single-base and therefore should be very temperature stable. FWIW, I was a bit worried about this with a warm RS52 308 load I had last summer for the Scottish L-R Matches at Blair Atholl. (Yes, it can get warm at Blair for thae dooters amongst yea!) I left a box sitting on the front seat of the car on Diggle ranges in full sun on a hot day (Yeah, it even gets hot at Diggle occasionally too!) for three hours until the box and its contents were warm to the touch. I then shot some to see if any nasties occurred, and they didn't so went off a lot more relaxed the next week. That doesn't prove anything as I didn't do a before and after chronograph, but did show that pressures weren't going to go through the roof on a hot day. I just loaded up 25 intial RS62 loads in 260 earlier today with the 139gn Scenar to try on Thursday. It should perform well in the cartridge.

I wouldn't say lighter (155s) are the preferred weight as many successful shooters use heavies all or most of the time. (Steve Donaldson shoots little other than 210s for instance.) It's more an issue of finding what suits you. I do better with 155s, or the 168gn Hybrid. I did very well with the 185gn Berger Juggernaut for a couple of seasons, but even that has a bit more recoil, torque and disturbance on the bi-pod than I like. A good strategy is to specify an 11 or 10" twist rate and to have the throat cut to suit the 185gn Juggernaut specifically. That is with the bullet seated with the shank to tail section junction level with the bottom of the case-neck when just off the rifling lands. That throat still suits the high-BC 155s very well and the 168gn Hybrid. It'll handle the 185 Hybrid and 210gn LR BT too at the cost of slightly deep seating. Although theoretically an over-fast twist, I find 1 in 10" works really well with all of these bullets including the 155.5gn Berger BT Fullbore, a bullet that I consider as a once in a generation outstanding design in the way that the original 155gn Sierra Palma was 25 or 30 years ago. 11-inch would be fine, that's what Berger recommends for the non-Hybrid 210gn class designs. (The 185gn Juggernaut works well in 12" and is even stabilised OK in 13 in anything but ballistically disadvantageous conditions.) Many of the top FTR national guys use 1 in 10s and shoot either the 155.5 or the 210gn LRBT as conditions demand. Note - no mention of the 210gn or other VLDs. Very few people are happy with this design. I'm very fond of the 168gn Hybrid. It can be got up to 2,950 fps plus and has an excellent BC. It'll hold elevations as well as the 155s. (The main problem with 210s apart from rifle disturbance is increased elevations making it a trade-off between reduced windage and the odd shot leaking out high or low.)

Gary, thanks for that offer, but I'm pretty sure the ones that Brian had in stock were the standard SR version. You can tell at a glance as they're a very deep copper colour. The SRMs are nickel plated. The standard version is an excellent little primer but its cup is very thin / soft and my 223 with 90s runs pretty warm in a Savage action that pierces primers a bit too easily, so it has to be a magnum type with its thicker cup.

Thanks for that Dave (the other one - a surfeit of Dave's here!) I hadn't realised there were two lots either. York Guns used to import the PMC branded variety from Europe years ago, but nobody here rated them at that time. I've yet to find a small magnum primer that's as good as the Murom / PMC model in .223 with 90s and a case-load of Varget or Re15. Des Parr was also looking for the LR variety a while back - I presume he uses them in 284 / 7mm short magnums, so he'll likely see the reference here soon.

Thanks Dave - I'll follow up on that as they do seem to suit some cartridges and loads really well.

I bought 50 or 100, I can't remember which now, from Henry Krank in Pudsey some years back. The company occasionally got them, but whether that still applies I wouldn't know. They worked fine. I always thought it would have been interesting to shoot them in some open space somewhere at a steepish muzzle elevation to see the little cartridge's longer range trajectory - but never did.