outlanda

20 hours ago, Alycidon said:

If you want to shoot where a .2 group or less is required and a .4 is nowhere then that is what you need,   however if its a fox flattener then that level of accuracy is not needed and 204 or 20 Prac/20 Tac will be fine out to 300 yards with 39 SBKs.       

I have a different opinion about the 20 practical, the 20 tactical and some custom .204R  and just don't agree with this statement regarding accuracy speaking from my experience. Its a shame that anyone researching a .204 calibre reads this sought of thing and is influenced by it.   

Thank you

Steve

37 minutes ago, Chris-NZ said:

Thousands of Tikkas are done here and they all shoot afterwards. My gunsmith mate has bin fulls of ~6" T3 offcuts, mainly from 7-08s and 308s.

If someone tells you it can't be done, I'd suggest it's time to find another gunsmith.

👍

Thank you for both the replies - reassuring asking those that know. I have a 24" CTR that is very accurate and don't want to mess it up

38 minutes ago, JR FIREARMS said:

Yes it’s fine. To be fair Tikka/Sako barrels are more stable but i’ve seen alot of stress relief issues with Remingtons. The bore can open up at the muzzle once it is turned down and threaded. 

👍

3 hours ago, JR FIREARMS said:

In my experience hammer forged barrels are the ones more prone to distortion/warping, i had it happen during testing on a scrap Rem barrel. It can even be seen due to threading if you look for it.
shortening the barrel is more effective at weight reduction and improved handling. 

Very interesting JR thank you. So is it OK to shorten a Tikka hammer forged barrel and not effect accuracy?

22 hours ago, Duster31 said:

Iv run both side by side and tbh I would not have a 204 again the 223 does every thing the 223 does but offers a lot more 

+1.

I have both and found the same. 20 Practical as nice as it is will go as need to tighten belt.  A 223 will do the same and more. I will see how i get on without it before deciding on another 20 cal or not.  

As for performance a 53gr hornady v max will match any 40gr .204 at the same velocity like for like.

I have 2 new boxes (2 x 100) of 40gr hornady v max and 2 new boxes (2 x 100) of 40gr berger match/varmint. £20/box plus post. 

I have an opened box with 87 left and they can go for £25 posted if it helps.

Steve

I will have the 22 hornady 53gr vmax if they could be posted to me please. PM the details.

Thanks

Steve

I have the MTR and not LRP. As for looks then i agree the stock is a personal taste and quite ugly. After trying it - it makes sense and it works. The same could be said about the LRP stock and i have opted for an MDT LSS that goes well with the 16" barrel. Both have match barrels, i like the fluting on LRP but only available as 20". No idea if match barrel any better than standard barrel - how good does it need to be? No calibre stated in post so guess .22lr so I should say mine is .17hmr and not a 'match' as no such thing but it is a tighter chamber than T1X and sako quad and only .17hmr i have not had a split case yet. Going off topic my theory is split cases in .17HMR are caused by large chambers and not ammunition quality.

Every one with an LRP is happy with it so must be OK.    

21 hours ago, Laurie said:

22-250 Rem and .22 Grendel aren't at all comparable. The 22-250 case holds around 43.5gn water; my 6.5G Lapua cases hold 36.6, so that'll be 36gn or less after necking down. Barrel life and several other things are determined or at the least heavily influenced by the case capacity to bore area ratio. (Hence the commonly used but rarely defined expression about some large case cartridges as being 'over bore capacity'.)

22-250's ratio is 1,104;  22G considerably lower at 913 (224 bore area is 0.0394 sq inches).

At 1,100 you're getting into high capacity to bore ratio values and reduced barrel life. 1,100 exceeds the ratios for the 6XC, 300WSM, 284 Win and is only a little below that of the 6mm Creedmoor. Canadian sling and F-Class prone competitors have traditionally made much more use of 22-cal centrefires than we do (going back to the Canadian equivalent of the MoD giving the DCRA free supplies of 5.56 Nato ammunition long after this practice stopped here). In the early days of F-Class, 22-250 with a faster twist barrel and longer throat loaded with 80gn bullets was 'in' for a while in Canada, but not for long with a barrel accuracy life of 900-1,000 rounds.

SAAMI MAP for the 22-250 Rem is a very healthy (or unhealthy for barrel throats) 65,000 psi - it is a true 'pocket magnum'. Typical 55gn bullet maximum powder charges run at 35-40gn; you can't get anywhere close to that amount physically into a Grendel case and maximum charges are typically 25-28gn, often compressed at the top end of that range. Likely a bit more in Robert Whitley's 'improved' wildcats.

The real differences between the pair - and why the Grendel case is so popular in the US in both factory and wildcat versions - are their external dimensions. With a 0.473" diameter case-head and SAAMI COAL of 2.350 (but considerably longer in heavy bullet / custom barrel form), the 22-250 needs a conventional short-action bolt-action, or an AR-10 based gas gun. The Grendel and its variants are designed to fit in the AR-15 or other small gas-gun equivalents. The .22G wildcats give way, way more performance than the original 223 Rem in this type of rifle. This is despite the Grendel's 0.441" dia case-head really pushing the envelope on the AR-15 bolt design and hence its chamber pressures having to be severely restricted. (52,000 psi SAAMI, another 6,000 psi for us in CIP.)

Since bolt-actions with 0.441" dia. bolt-faces are rare, or were as Savage, CZ, and Howa all now provide models for the Grendel and/or 6ARC, the .22BR is a simpler, easier and cheaper route to a high-performance wildcat in the calibre. It is not such a step up from the Grendel case as most people think though. The BR case capacity is a tad under 38gn in 6mm form, so will be less than 2gn greater water capacity than the Grendel when necked-down to 22. 22BR is nothing like as 'over-bore' as 22-250, but has more than enough capacity to give excellent performance. 

  

  

   

Thank you Laurie this has been very helpful and made it a lot clearer. I was thinking 22-250 v 22br which you have explained well. A 22-250 could have reduced powder and i remember using around 36gr and still fast but easier on the barrel - i just didn't know how it would compare and whether the wildcat build is worth it'   

Thanks

Steve    

Thank you for reamer suggestions. I believed possibly wrongly that i am not allowed to purchase or own the reamer. And since the idea of this project, interest has gone for me with any wildcats and i don't need the extra performance and pain anymore.

I am puzzled and do have a question though.

When comparing a wildcat to a 22-250 why not just have a 22-250. It will be using about same amount of powder, similar barrel lengths, same noise for same velocity, same barrel life, as long as a 5 round magazine is enough for intended purpose. Only downside for factory rifles is fast twist barrels for heavy bullets so still a costly custom.

Thanks

Steve 

9 hours ago, terryh said:

Surely a 22-204 is just putting a 204 back to its parent case the 222 Magnum?
 

Seems to me that some of the time it appears to be a cartridge finding a solution finding a problem?
 

it is ‘nice’ to try new stuff but if there are existing proven cartridges already doing the job then some of the efforts are a bit unnecessary.

Just a thought

Hello Terry

Hope all is well. My understanding is the .222 magnum is obsolete and brass not available. >204 ruger brass is and very easy to neck up to .224 with redding type s die. The case is slightly larger offering a bit more capacity and higher performance. Recently it has been hijacked and renamed 22 terminator. With a 1:7 or 1:8 twist and 80gr-90gr bullets it will perform the same as the .22 grendel with same bullets. The smaller bolt face and .204 ruger cartridge make it a friendly cartridge, it will feed from mags no problems and components easy to obtain. Early on it did well as a wildcat benchrest in US and recently pushed further. The major downfall is the reamer no one has one, so the build never got off the ground. Then looking at other options as mentioned  plus .223AI which is not so user friendly the conclusion is to just go with factory rifle in .223, long fast twist barrel, heavy bullets and full cases - make do as its not far away. A lot of pain for small gain.

Thanks

Steve        

After commenting yesterday i thought the new 6mm ARC might be a good alternative. Should be a  factory chambered option here may be one day and factory ammunition. Might be interesting in a .224 wildcat which somebody might do one day if not already. Disclaimer for my keyboard warrior friend. I don't have one and no experience of 6mm ARC - just researched and merely a suggestion.   

20 hours ago, Andrew said:

A 22-204? That's getting silly. Kinda like a 30-7mm08.~Andrew

Just another option for same performance using a different parent case to improve feeding from mag etc. Merely a suggestion  for reference. Trouble with any of these wildcats is finding a gunsmith with a reamer - and unlikely to happen.   

13 hours ago, BlueBoy69 said:

The 22 Grendel still seems to be a bit of a wildcat cartridge at present, so all the normal caveats will apply with its use. It seems to be relativity easy to make cases at least, well depending on the route taken to create them.

Using the 6.5 Grendel case as the starting point and then directly or sequentially necking it down would seem to be the easier route. Certainly easier than going from a 7.62×39 case to 22 Grendel, which will take quite a few stages.

Going from the 220 Russian is another option, which may be a simple fire forming job with potential neck turning. It may however be something a little more complex, but potentially not as hard as going via the 7.62×39 case route.

Then also there's the option of using 22 PPC USA or 6 m PPC USA cases made by Norma to produce your 22 Grendel cases. The former similar to but potentially easier than the 220 Russian route, the latter a bit like the 6.5 Grendel option.

In most if not all cases, annealing will need to be done at the end, or between case forming stages. This is a potential pain in the bum if you don't have a tool to do this.

I guess it's all down to how much performance you want and how much hassle is involved in getting there. The 22 Grendel has got a bit more case capacity and hence performance than the next to identical case capacity and performance 22 PPC (22 PPC USA) and .224 Valkyrie cases, but the 22 BR matches, or trumps its performance by a small margin.

For simplicity and even more performance you could just go with a 22-250 chambered rifle, but with a fast twist. Another option for simplicity, but accepting slightly less performance, you could just go with a 22 PPC or PPC USA, and for the latter you can still buy Norma cases; as I know personally.

Next.

(This is turning into stalking directory)

Got both, only home load so supplies not a problem for components. Really like the .204 for fox, but if i could only have one it would be a .223 as more versatile - range and field use. Running costs for home loads the same, .204 good for reduced loads = .17hmr in cost with better performance.

On 2/24/2022 at 4:23 PM, Furyan said:

Anybody use one in the UK for vermin fox ?

Quite interested in this but any Pros / cons out there. Feed issues

Thank you 

.22 grendel is an interesting cartridge; however the same performance is possible with 22-204 and 224 valkyrie not far off, with the possibility of a factory rifle and ammunition that might see the light of day here eventually. No experience of any of these so cannot offer any more help. I make do with a .223    

 thought your comments were aimed at me. Previous experience has shaped my opinion. I have owned a custom 10/22 with only the receiver being original. Only rifle ever owned i regret selling. Painful loss and replacement was hopeless. As i mentioned (if you care to read) i have owned a CZ512 and recommend it for 1/2" 5 shots at 50 yards out of the box and less than £350. It was equal to my CZ455 even with a heavy trigger and clockwork reliable - something the 10/22 was not. I have an AR- 22 because it was an itch i wanted to scratch and just because i can. I have criticised it often and tell it how it is without tinted glasses. 

At one point it was going but recent events means it has survived. It will be my last semi auto so enjoy it while it lasts and use as intended before giving up on semi's. My last comment you jumped on was a question of what is considered good accuracy. Perhaps you know the answer and care to share it in this little debate. I think sights play are large part in expectations imho. Not 25yds in a tunnel though as my and probably any AR type will match your results - its no test for a .22lr and wouldn't waste my valuable time doing it. As quite rightly mentioned an air rifle will do that all day long.

To clarify; - i think a semi auto can be accurate depending on what that accuracy is, the trade off is consistency, reliability and cost. It will usually be custom and expensive  or a lucky find - the CZ  and probably others  i dont know about can be the exception. My preference for .22lr 'precision' would be a bolt action and i dont think i have said otherwise.  FFS 
    

3 minutes ago, BlueBoy69 said:

For me the rifle produces one slightly larger than one bullet hole 10 shot groups at 25 yards in an enclosed (underground) range. At 100 yards between 1.0-2.0 inches depending on the weather and ammo available.

Both of the above figures are roughly the same as my two previous .22LR sporting bolt actions. The accuracy is more than enough for me, as it's only really used for small game up to 100 yards. If I want to take longer shots I'll use my 22 or 6 mm PPC rifles, which are both bug hole shooters!

I don't really know why you are so adamant that 22 semi-autos can't be both accurate and precise; mine is both? They aren't all cheaply built AR-15 clones by the way, though you seem to think they are for some reason only known unto yourself? Good quality semi-autos do not have to cost a bomb either, though mine was second hand and cost about £450 (see image).

On 2/19/2022 at 10:26 PM, phoenix said:

Define what you mean by good accuracy

2 inch 5 shot groups at 50 yards?

1 inch 5 shot groups at 50 yards?

1/2 inch 5 shot groups at 50 yards?

etc

You can have semi auto plinking rifle and get loads of fun and enjoyment from it, but if you try to use the same rifle for target shooting ( particularly alongside people using single shot and bolt action rifles) you'll get nothing but frustration

 

Cheers

 

Bruce

As Bruce has asked; what is good accuracy for a 'precision' semi auto - if there is such a thing. A scope with high mag is probably required for best results and as mostly semi's are used with low mag, red dot sights and open sights, 2" at 50 yds with be quite an achievement. Heavy triggers don't help and anyway, after finding some ammunition it likes, why shoot groups with a semi auto when its not the intended purpose. 

21 hours ago, Happy plinker said:

What would you suggest is a good semi auto with good accuracy begara maybe

Looked at Begara BXR and put off by reviews. My suggestion would be a CZ512 as found this as accurate and reliable as a CZ455 out of box. Not 'tacti cool' i know and still has issues as any semi auto will have.

Fortyvoats - a little harsh but  true. Problem with US AR-22's they are $500 plinkers sold for a £1k in UK and still are plinkers. £2k for something better is just silly. With lower expectations they should not disappoint.

Resale of any semi auto means pain.

As for pest control - may be close range but not as good as a cheap bolt action and they will be leaving brass behind for the land owner - just a no no. 

12 minutes ago, farmer_giles said:

The fox is down. I repeat, the little deciduous tree is down. 

Finally caught it in with the chickens. 

First shot (100m) in the chest. Second shot in the head. Factory Ammo Hornady 53gr Superformance. 

So in relation to the bullet choice I would say these are a bit fast and light, disintegrating rather than expanding. The chest shot managed about 2-3 inches penetration which did not kill it. The head shot hit the nose straight on and did not reach the brain but the impact killed it. 

The way these 53gr vmax behave points towards them being more suitable for rabbit/crow/magpie. Their BC is extremely good, so they travel well. 

I'm thinking about 63gr might be the next stop on this journey. 

 

 

 

That's at odds with my experience handloads of 53gr or 50gr vmax. A .204 40gr v max works and would be my 'favourite fox bullet' over the 50gr v max .223 second. A .22wmr head shot would exit and i guess heavier .223 head shot might be the same.  I dislike exiting bullets - 'safety' or runners.

51 minutes ago, Ronin said:

The ones I have fixed have had extractor claws pulled in one case from their retaining inlet and others damaged to the point they would not hold onto case Rim 

Extractors do wear in all rifles but the ones I refer to all had signs of hard use (hot loads)

 

wipe marks on bolt face , ejector plunger stuck, etc 

 

Easy fix is replace the extractor with new and give the bolt head a thorough clean after stripping down replacing the ejector plunger and spring plus roll pin with new

 

You Could fit an M16 type extractor for ultimate reliable extraction (this is a job for someone who knows what they’re doing) 

Thank you Ronin.

I can rule out these as the problem. I have replaced extractor claw many times and bolt is still hard to close and taking chunks out of brass rim. Bolt closes without extractor. Would like to have had an extractor upgrade - as you say finding someone to fit it was a problem. I have given up with it and will sell or PX at some point. Most accurate rifle i have ever shot but i had enough of the extractor. Was going to replace with Tikka .204R. Not so sure now with lack of availability and lack of options.

Thanks

Steve 

On 2/2/2022 at 7:04 PM, Ronin said:

Had customers come for fixes for extractor(s) ejectors sticking (hot loads,,,,) bolt handles (x3) - hot loads, bolt nose failure (v hot load) 

Sako extractor popping out (mine and very well used action ) 

All the above is since 2007 to date 

Given the number in use in my area alone that’s a pretty low failure rate 

I’ve replaced more parts on Tikka and Sako in that time (extractors, ejectors and manual ejectors on Sako) 

Hello Ronin

How would i know if hot loads (in the past) are the cause of my extractor problems even though i am using light loads now and what is the fix please. Never had a problem with my Tikka but 2 x Rem 700 .223 Sps tactical (one a 20 practical that i still have) have been a pain in the arse.

nCognitos Thank you for feedback as very interested in the CZ barrel accuracy. My assumption i need a Lilja is probably wrong. As i am building on a budget i might be changing my mind - risk of a bad barrel scares me. Also 16" or 20" fluted mtr?

It is Dolphin i have contacted about the Lilja and have seen his builds. He/they have a very nice chassis made in UK and pricey. If i was spending 2k it would be an Anschutz. Mines a budget build on a used 16" .17HMR MTR now in an MDT LSS RF. 

Regards scope, both Element Helix FFP 6-24x50 MRAD and Vortex Diamond Tactical FFP 6-24x50 MRAD have around 19 MIL of elevation and still affordable. Would recommend either.

Thanks

Steve