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29 minutes ago, Moorlander said:

Dont RWS do lead free pellets?

Yes they do - These are made of tin and very light. I think it we be a while before we see anyone winning matches with them.

I think there will be serious consequences for smallbore and air target shooting if lead is banned, and this will certainly have a knock-on effect further down the line. There's no substitutes for lead for precision competition shooting, the required accuracy just isn't there and not likely to be in the foreseeable future,  if a substitute is is eventually found and perfected it's most unlikely to be at a  comparable price point.

11 minutes ago, One on top of two said:

I just love the challenge with the rimmy every person gets a different result. It really is a case of finding the right ammo as no two set ups / barrels /rifles are the same. And the ammo does a great job of reminding you every single time 😂

Excellent real world data. Really surprised about the Eley black box though.

44 minutes ago, Farmer rick said:

Thanks for the article, here is what the USA guys are up to reproducing thier own pins in the cz https://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1162011&amp=1

Ahh yes, that's interesting. I got to say, the CZ striker is hardy a thing of beauty, if you were trying to design the perfect firing pin I don't think that's how it would look. There are arguments about whether the strike should be at 12 or 6 o'clock and whether the spring should go around the pin or the pin around the spring. There's no doubt an action with good ignition leads to more  consistent velocity which must pay dividends at longer ranges.
 

Even with good quality .22lr ammunition we regularly see a ES of 20-40fps - this, in percentage terms would equate to something like 100fps in a centrefire round. Careful centrefire hand loaders are now getting ES down in single figures.

30 minutes ago, Farmer rick said:

Will have a read!

thanks for the info. I have seen so of the br shooters stateside modifying the shape / profile of the 457 to create a almost pyramid shape. I think all CZ have the rectangular one that hits / cuts right across the rim (photo attached) hence the USA guys modifying its. I’ll see if I can find the thread about it.

but would the ignition cause such a dramatic difference in speed, I did chrono some rounds a few weeks ago and sent the results to eley: both subs and match were well over the stated velocities with subs actually averaging faster than the match - 1096fps with highs of 1113, match averaged 1086.

mean averages for match are  1040-1085

subs - 1000-1040fps so hugely different.
 

When you look at those cases they all look evenly struck and all went bank - Under normal circumstances no one would give them a second thought.  If you think a little deeper and think how a rimfire case is formed - The case has been formed so already work hardened to a certain extent and the extreme edge, 10 thou thick is actually a solid bit of brass. Do we want to expend any available energy crushing a solid bit of brass. There's no priming compound in the extreme edge so a custom benchrest rifle could well have the face of the pin angled slightly to tend to squeeze the priming compound towards the outer edge then be ignited.
Take a look at the pictures half way down this page  - A new idea, a lot of work going on searching for more consistent rimfire ignition.

Sako Quad .22lr (takilta.fi)

17 minutes ago, Farmer rick said:

This is interesting... so what actually happens with the ignition / strike to cause the variation? Also apparently the 457 spring is 30% weaker than the 455 to help with accuracy so the tech gumph says...

Some while ago I asked Bill Calfee (via his website) why he didn't rate the Sako Finnfire action very highly as the basis for a custom benchrest rifle. The two main reasons he stated was the ignition and the fact it didn't have a screw on barrel. He went on to explain how very important every aspect of the ignition phase was to get consistent ignition, from the shape, where it strikes on the rim, depth of strike, the power,  rebound spring oscillation, spring pre-load, weight/friction of the firing pin etc.

Remember, we are talking about extreme accuracy here where every little detail make a difference - a bit like a F1 car or tuning a two stroke motorcycle engine - little bits all add up.

According to Calfee the ideal firing pin should be a chisel shape, striking just inside the rim with the face ground at a shallow angle so the inboard tip of the firing pin strikes the case first. This initial dent from the tip of the firing pin happens a millisec before ignition. This dent forms a ramp on the inside of the case and deflects the ignition flash along the length of powder resulting in a cleaner and more consistent burn.
 

(Bill Clafee built .22lr benchrest rifles have won more International, National and state records that all other .22lr benchrest rifle builders put together)

Just one thread from Rimfire benchrest forum.
Firing pin energy vs accuracy (benchrest.com)

20 hours ago, Farmer rick said:

As mentioned in my posts before, I have a issue with eley subs going super sonic, so went out with a friend whilst zeroing the 222 and decided put some eley .22 through their cz452 whilst we were out for comparison, 55yrds low wind 5mph, 8deg c with interesting results:

my rifle - cz 457 mtr

test gun - cz 452 - same as you I believe @No i deer

both moderated etc...

all reports from the 452 where quiet and sub sonic.... 457 all loud and super sonic... tested with eley match also and the same acoustics were heard.

so I can only conclude that the match chamber is in-fact producing a higher pressure that a “standard” chamber and causing a increase in velocity. As mentioned before rws subs are absolutely fine, stay subsonic but not quite as good grouping as the eley subs.

eley subs:

as many have said they don’t shoot well in their guns...

cz 452 - dreadful, around 1.4” (could be barrel acclimatising)

cz457 mtr - great: around 0.3”

Eley match:

cz 452 - 0.5” (one flyer not counted benefit of the doubt as barrel acclimatising)

c457 - 0.4” (one pulled low)

Cci subs:

cz452 only - 0.7” but again a lot of swapping ammo around maybe not fair...

From this is can say that there is a significant different in the eley subs between the 452 & 457... which could be down to chambering....

But the match seem to perform well in both. 

 

 

It would have been interesting to have put them through the chrony. I think ignition is more of a factor here, between the 452 and the 457 rather than the chamber. About half of the potential accuracy with the .22lr seems to be attributed to the chamber/leade/lock-up/ignition. The shape, depth and position of the firing pin strike on the rim has a considerable influence in velocity.

The firing pin spring in the 452 is possibly 20 years old - If the bolt is removed for storage the spring is under full compression almost all of the time.
I have a lilja match barrel on my Sako Finnfire P94S but if I was thinking of fitting one to a CZ I would start with the 452 action rather than the later 455 series. The 452 has a proper locking lug, the 455+ only uses the bolt handle as a locking lug.

4 hours ago, No i deer said:

Thanks.

It's not something that occurred to me..

Intrested to see if single loading them reduces the group size 😎.

Ah bullets rubbing together being cycled so damage to the bullet can occur top and bottom in the mag..

The bullet being fired launched through the barrel being cut by the grooves damage the bullet but on the bearing surface not the tip to the ogive.. a scuff could affect it's ballistic coefficiency.

Also, the very fact that, with a .22lr, when fed from a magazine the cartridge is fed into the chamber at an angle, the bullet striking the top of the chamber while the rim is still restrained with the mag lips.

Many magazine fed .22lr rifles used for club level competitions can be fitted with a single loader block, (sometimes stipulated in the rules):
This is a simple 3d printed CZ single loader block:

If you're shooting .22lr  benchrest with a magazine fed rifle is common practice to single feed them, some rifles really gouge a track in the soft lead bullet as they are stripped from the mag.

It looks like you have an early version of the 162ei. Only supplied with one fixed cylinder and 15v battery.

How to recognize Morini 162EI? - TargetTalk

11 hours ago, Dellboy said:

What size battery does yours take   mine came with an old BLR154  so i ordered a new one thats turned up bigger in diameter , on checking the new one is the standard diameter of  15mm but the old one is 13mm  ????

I believe I have a later version than the one you have - my 162ei takes two AAA batteries (Good for 15,000 shots)

The place to find the information is TargetTalk - Index page  There is a chap who posts on there who designed the electronics and works for Morini.

ARMA Model (1) (gehmann.com)

Hammerli, the Swiss maker of superior quality target pistols was bought out by Walther around 20 years ago - Walther then licenced the Hammerli name to Umerex, USA (Makers of trashy airguns, replicas, air-soft and the like).

these bits come with the kit:

The black thing on the left is a de-compressor, 

The two brass ones are the fillers. The probe end fits the pistol cylinder, the other end goes to what ever your high pressure air supply is. I only use the small center one, it fits my small dive bottle and also I have a hand pump for them - pump costs about £60 and pumps up to 220 bar without too much trouble on these small cylinders. Each pistol cylinder should give around 90-100 shots depending how it's set up, easily enough for a match (60 shots) These are all regulated shots - if the pressure drops low in the cylinder there is a failsafe on the side that locks the trigger.

These guys should be able to supply the adapters : Best Fittings – Quality AirGun Accessories

28 minutes ago, Dellboy said:

any chance of a pic of the loading adaptor please

 

I'll take a pic of the adapters tomorrow.

48 minutes ago, Re-Pete said:

http://www.vzduchovka.cz/katalogy/Aeron-B96-en.pdf

A leftie one of these recently sold for £290. I have one (RH), and it's brilliant......very accurate, and 490fps with RWS R10 pellets....5 shot magazine, rapid fire..........

The CO2 cartridges are cheap. Servicing and spares for the guns are still available via www.sureshot-airguns.co.uk. They might even be able to help with sourcing one.

Highly recommended but not easy to find.

Pete

 

Ahh yes, I have a B69 5 shot semi -auto too - great fun.

Interesting to see a new pistol is £1,777 (spare cylinder £227)

Morini CM-162EI Air Pistol (edinkillie.co.uk)

Morini Air Pistol Cylinder (edinkillie.co.uk)

Full kit should look something like this:

I have one of these - Really excellent top notch target pistol. These are Olympic standard pistols with electronic triggers etc. Although this might be a 4-5 years old it is still competitive at the highest level.

Condition looks good and if it's got the hard case with spare cylinder must be worth £750 - £1,000.

This is my Morini 162ie

Well done Spud, what terrific progress is so short time - I remember your first tentative steps.  

Also have this one that shoots very well .36 - it has a set trigger down to about 3oz.:

16 minutes ago, The Gun Pimp said:

Nope - I've never used lead bullets in mine. FMJ are clean and quick to reload - I can reload mine in 90 secs including cleaning chambers and pricking flash-holes.

 

That's interesting - Any chance of posting a photo of a group at 20 yards?

59 minutes ago, The Gun Pimp said:

Just use jacketed bullets!

Is that a joke Vince?

1 hour ago, Popsbengo said:

You have a great deal more luck than I did with my 4" Westlake Alpha.  I just could not get on with it,  extremely difficult to load the bullets I purchased off Westlake without distorting the wadcutters, extremely sensitive to charge weight and of course that's a tiny weight of eg Herco.

I have a mate with a 6" model, he loves it but has resorted to casting his own bullets to get a decent fit.

In a nutshell I hated mine with a passion.  Thankfully there are plenty of people after them so it was easy to move on.  I have far better results with my Euroarms Roger & Spencer .44 cap & ball.

I would agree that Mr Westlake is a charming chap and a pleasure to do business with.

I agree, there's a bit of a learning curve to get a suitable bullet/charge to be both easy to load and accurate. Many seem to use a 9mm undersize bullet as they're easy to load and seem little concerned with accuracy, just content to make a bang and getting them all on the paper seems near enough. Most commercial cast bullets are too hard for accuracy and the standard press supplied with the pistol is next to useless. I made my own press and cast my own bullets.
Home made bullet presses: 

20 hours ago, terryh said:

Knew 'of' Mr Westlake - did 'not know' he was local 😎

And if you're wondering how the Westlake conversions shoots, this is a cylinder from my 6" .357 Alfa, shot from a sandbag at 20 yards with open sights (and my 70+ eyes are a long way past their best).

 I believe Major Fulton use cork in his regulated Mk 4 rifles.

Here's someone using O rings: