Action advice - dual bolt face

[SRGNXL]

Looking for a custom action rem 700LA footprint to build a 300Norma switch barrel version to 308win bolt face.

Must have integral recoil lug and ideally repeater.

Which action would you opt for and why?

[trucraft]

Bighorn Action springs to mind. Readily available in the uk.

https://bighornarms.com/ 

[SRGNXL]

Who sells these?

[bradders]

7 minutes ago, SRGNXL said:

Who sells these?

Paddy Dane

[Catch-22]

You can go Defiance Machine (flavours include the Rebel, Deviant - I chose the Mutant for my tube gun). 

They can supply you with multiple bolts, each perfectly machined for the action. Nice thing about Defiance is the option to use XL size bolts, .750" which are a bit chunkier in diameter & have much larger/longer locking lugs, especially nice for larger cartridges.

Ive gone a similar route, a .308w bolt (I shoot a 6.5x47) and a .338 Norma Mag.

One thing you'll need to consider is ensuring your rifle will feed from mags. You can fit the .300NM into .300wm or .338 AICS style mags without issue but when you switch to the .308w bolt and use shorter cartridges, you may run into feeding issues as you'll effectively have a L/A action. This was another reason for me choosing a tube gun chassis as I can swap my lowers between L/A and S/A, so no feeding issues at all.

You may want to check feeding with a good gunsmith who's got experience of switch barrel guns, especially switching between small and large calibres.

Sounds like a fun project. Good luck!

[Danpd]

American Rifle Company Mausingfield will do this no problem. Available ex stock In the UK  

[SRGNXL]

Thanks @Catch-22 for that feedback i looked at defiance action and love it. Noticed Ryan pierce in the US builds most of his rifles on this action.

 Is there dedicated bottom metal that allow use of 308w magazines on a long action such as this?

Im thinking the m24 was made in 308win on a long action so that the army could switch to the 300win with a barrel change. How did it feed reliably 308win rounds that were loaded to saami spec?

[baldie]

Because it fed from a long action floor plate and follower. The long action was used to switch from 308 to 30-06 [ same bolt face ]. A calibre used to devastating effect by the late Carlos Hathcock.

The rounds just follow the action rails like a long action cartridge, and feed when supposed to.

To run .308 in a long action isn't difficult. Use a long action DBM and a 300 win mag magazine, with its lips tweaked.

[baldie]

However, as previously mentioned, some custom actions may struggle with this. This is because a lot are cut these days for AW magazines [short action usually] Pick an action that has the remington style bolt guides and it will work.

Alternatively, pick a mausingfield or Bighorn in long action. Both are controlled round feed, and will work irrespective of cartridge length, from a magazine system.

[SRGNXL]

Thanks for chiming in baldie. Not aure i understood everything. The boltguides are those rails inside the action to help the bolt slide forward smoothly. I gather they are hard to machine so some manufacturers have a thick bolt instead instead of cutting them in the action. Is that correct?

What is a controlled round feed?

Bighorn told me their action wont take a 300Norma only a 300winmag. So given UK availability what else is there with a rem 700 foot print? Stiller, Defiance, Surgeon XL, mausingfield, is the latter of high quality like the others?

Last question, is there a long action bottom metal thay can also take short action mags so as to avoid rounds moving during shooting?

[Catch-22]

Shame the Bighorn's don't have the large Magnum bolt faces. Could be that they don't seem their bolt to be of sufficient diameter. You could potentially open one up. Plenty of people have done this on standard R700 bolts and state no ill efrects. But I'm no gunsmith, so I can't advise it.

The issue you're beginning to run into is one of the main considerations which led me to build a switch barrel super size on the extremely versatile Eliseo RTM tube gun chassis.

Attached pic demonstrates the multiple 'lowers' and how switching calibre is as easy as changing the lower, magazine, bolt and barrel. With a simple barrel vice and torque wrench, I can change calibres in under 2 minutes. Not bad for a bench gun!

 

[baldie]

22 minutes ago, SRGNXL said:

Thanks for chiming in baldie. Not aure i understood everything. The boltguides are those rails inside the action to help the bolt slide forward smoothly. I gather they are hard to machine so some manufacturers have a thick bolt instead instead of cutting them in the action. Is that correct?

What is a controlled round feed?

Bighorn told me their action wont take a 300Norma only a 300winmag. So given UK availability what else is there with a rem 700 foot print? Stiller, Defiance, Surgeon XL, mausingfield, is the latter of high quality like the others?

Last question, is there a long action bottom metal thay can also take short action mags so as to avoid rounds moving during shooting?

Hmmm, not quite.

They are actually anti-bind rails to stop the bolt torquing. However, on a remmy, they also keep the rounds sat against the magazine follower, and only release the round at the correct point.

A lot of actions dont use them, preferring instead to let the bolt stop guide the bolt, by means of a slot cut lengthways in the blot, examples being the Accuracy International, and the Barnard etc. Its a simpler, cheaper way of making an action, as all you need is a precisely reamed bolt hole down the action. It has the added advantage of bolt fit tolerance , can be made extremely tight if required.

This style of action , without the rails, won't usually work with a rem style standard floor plate, as the follower has nothing to stop against.

Controlled round feed is a Mauser design, and basically, the bolt head has the bottom third removed . The cartridge case, then, as its pushed out of the magazine, travels upwards, into the bolt face, where its rim slides UNDER the extractor claw. Thus the case is held by the bolt, all the way into the breech, and is held on bolt extraction, right to the back of the bolt stroke, where it is kicked off the bolt face by a manual ejector, in the back of the action. Its very simple, and failsafe.

Absolutely "De Rigeur" on an Africa rifle, as a misfeed on the second shot could mean one, is red squidgy stuff between an elephants toes, or a toothpick for a lion.

Bighorn do a win mag bolt head, but not .338, which the Norma magnum utilises.

Realistically, you need a .750" diameter bolt for a .338. Remington built .338's on the .700 " diameter bolt, but there was virtually no bolt head rim left, and also the smaller lug contact area. Not I gun I would put under my chops i'm afraid.

The Mausingfield is an engineering masterpiece, and leagues in front of anything else in terms of absolute engineering quality. They have all the best features of several different actions, and I believe, are made of PH4 steel.

They are truly beautiful things if real engineering floats your boat.

I dont know of any long action floor plate that will accept short action mags on a rem footprint.

Your not far from me, I have all these actions in stock, if you fancy a visit and a good look at the differences.

[Danpd]

Bighorns will not run .338 Lapua diameter cartridges. The magnum bolt heads are already made of maraging steel to give a good margin of safety in the Standard magnums. There is no way to open them up and you would totally ruin the action.

 

Mausingfields on the other hand will run .338 CIP length rounds without any issue and will also run the 30-06/308 Bolt Face cartridges on the same action in a Rem 700 footprint. 

[SRGNXL]

Thats some fantastic info tonight digesting it is the process - thank you all for taking the time to curate this information - goldmine.

I like that eliseo tube especially the fact you can swap that bottom part for an appropriate magazine like having 2 rifles in one.

●Is eliseo chassis available in UK and ●would it work with mausingfield OR defiance action?

●seems the butt can also be removed for transport which is important for me

Im thinking something along these lines with a digital camo paint job and a spiral fluted barrel like on a PGW barrel will make me happy.

http://s1084.photobucket.com/user/skyav8r/media/20140314_144031.jpg.html

 

[Catch-22]

That pic of yours is almost identical to the build I've got. It's currently getting the barrels painting - I'll post pics when I've got it back.

Unfortunately Gary Eliseo doesn't export direct to the UK but you can get a chassis exported through an Export/Import business. I did this. Was fairly straight forward, did involve about 5 mins of paperwork to fill out the US State Department forms, then a 4 month wait, but quite simples.

It was at this time I also had a Defiance Mutant with appropriate bolts and a handful of barrels shipped over too. 

[Catch-22]

Oh, I doubt the Eliseo will work with the Mausingfield due to the picatinny rail and recoil lug on that action. I'm not sure if the OD of the action would fit the interior sleeve of the tube chassis.

 If you go tube gun, you really need either a dedicated custom action designed for the tube chassis (e.g. Like the Defiance Mutant) or a Rem700 clone but without an integral recoil lug and picatinny rail. The tube chassis requires a special disk recoil lug (supplied by Gary Eliseo, or if using a Mutant it has its own special tube recoil lug machined as part of the action).

[Laurie]

13 hours ago, Catch-22 said:

Oh, I doubt the Eliseo will work with the Mausingfield due to the picatinny rail and recoil lug on that action. I'm not sure if the OD of the action would fit the interior sleeve of the tube chassis.

 If you go tube gun, you really need either a dedicated custom action designed for the tube chassis (e.g. Like the Defiance Mutant) or a Rem700 clone but without an integral recoil lug and picatinny rail. The tube chassis requires a special disk recoil lug (supplied by Gary Eliseo, or if using a Mutant it has its own special tube recoil lug machined as part of the action).

Yes, quite so. Eliseo tube gun stocks come in one or two single-shot action forms (eg the B1 for the Barnard 'P') where the front of the receiver butts up against a collar on the tube body, or in a different version for the more common Remington 'footprint' models in either single-shot or magazine forms. The latter require a (supplied) large machined disk like a thick washer inserted twixt action and barrel that then butts up against a collar ..... and the Remy recoil lug is discarded. Eliseo has increasingly moved to actions such as Pierce and Borden that fit his stock better than Remingtons and not all 700 clones fit anyway. As Catch-22 says, any external features that change the action's external profile dimensions from the Rem 700 such as scope rails and inbuilt recoil lugs will mean the action won't fit the tube, and would have to be machined off (if feasible).

Eliseo's Competition Machine Savage S1 stock for the Savage PTA single-shot action is a great design, IMO better than the B, R etc models for prone F-Class type shooting. Despite appearances, it is not a tube stock as the action sits on a chassis, not inside a tube and the Savage recoil lug is used.

(I assume that if an existing Remington barreled action is used, this substitution throws headspace way out and a rebarrel or set-back/rechamber  job is also required.)

[baldie]

I have an Elisio stock in the shop. The only action that will go in [that I have ] is s stainless remmy. However, upon initial inspection, it does appear to be able to use a standard lug. It just butts against the internal shoulder in the stock.

[SRGNXL]

Whuch eliseo stock do you have baldie?

[baldie]

Its a rem 700 set up with mag well for an AI mag. Its actually in the white, never been anodised. I bought it from a friend a while back [ didn't know he had it ]

[Soggy biscuit]

Slightly off topic but would the AI AX be any good to you as it will mag feed both calibers with the magwell adapter ? 

[SRGNXL]

So it seems the mausingfield is the one to go for if wanting the possibility to have a repeater action which can do all bolt faces. Bottom metal and all thats around almost 2k for the action.

Are there more action options if the gun is a single shot action with 2 bolts on a rem700 clone action?

[Catch-22]

Again Defiance actions are Rem700 clones and gives you the ability of using multiple bolts. You don't have to go dedicated tube gun action (like the Defiance Mutant I have), but the Defiance Rebel will do the same thing, your smith just needs to include the washer style recoil lug supplied by Gary Eliseo. The Rebel will be about £300 cheaper than the Mausingfield. 

But tbh, if you're building a switch barrel rifle with a .300 Norma Mag, you're not gonna get it for cheap. The bullets, powder, brass, scope, rings and everything that go along with owning and shooting an extreme distance precision rifle is not cheap. 

My advice is if you're not happy with the prices of the options laid out before you, then either scale back on what you want to achieve to meet your budget or save up and build it right, using the best components you can buy the first time. Ultimately a rifle like the one you're trying to build is a no compromise one and I think if you do scrimp on the right components, you'll end up regretting it, probably to great expense too.

[Catch-22]

On 4/19/2018 at 4:39 PM, Soggy biscuit said:

Slightly off topic but would the AI AX be any good to you as it will mag feed both calibers with the magwell adapter ? 

Yes it's a good and sensible option. But that would likely be around a £6.5k layout for the base rifle and a .300NM barrel. That's also assuming the OP wants a .308w barrel. If not (i.e. Shooting a 6.5x47) then factor another £700 for that barrel.