6x47

[No i deer]

Is the 6x47 a a worthy opponent against the 6mm br....?

[Big Al]

Add some context...

[No i deer]

I was wondering if this 6mm variant was a match for the br.bra.dasher etc.

From my experence the 6.5x47 is as they say inherently accurate too and it has a bit more boiler room than the others mentioned.

As I've started this topic the 243 and the more recent 6mm slr don't seem to be a popular 1000yds benchrest choice and the ballistics should be way better from the extra performance than the 6mm br

In theory the extra performance there should be an advantage.

[Big Al]

25 minutes ago, No i deer said:

In theory the extra performance there should be an advantage.

Performance is nothing without control.

[The Gun Pimp]

The 6x47 won the UKBRA 1000 yd Light Gun Championship a couple of years ago.  Recoil (and therefore gun-handling) isn't much different than a 6BR.

It's a valid, capable 1000 yd BR round but requires a bit of case-forming - which means you tend to hang on to your brass a bit too long.....

Run a 'straight' 6BR and your brass comes right out of the box - remember, nothing shoots like new brass!

The new Norma Dasher brass is a great step forward for the same reason but some don't like the price!  However, factor in case-forming costs and it's good value!

Really, it's down to the competitor - shoot what you fancy and hope to beat the rest of us.

 

[Big Al]

Joking aside, theory is one thing and proven results quite another.

I had this very discussion with a member at Diggle recently about the 6x47 but you could also substitute that for 6 Creedmoor, 6 SMACK, 243 Ack etc etc in terms of 6mms.

The USA is the hot bed for long range accurate rifle shooting, they have access to better ranges, better bullets and often better weather conditions, in general they shoot the smallest long range benchrest groups in the world and for various reasons here in the UK we lag quite far behind them.

6 Dasher has been king of the 6mms for a long time at 1000yds and only very recently has the 6BRA came along as a worthy challenger, so much so it is now breaking Dasher world records.

I ask myself why we hear nothing of the other 6mms I mentioned earlier, some might say the Americans are like sheep and follow the same trend without looking for European or other alternatives? Personally I can't agree with that, I think the guys in the US must be trying everything as finding an edge over the others could be the difference needed to be a winner in a hotly contested match. There is a theory that best accuracy (remember accuracy has to be paramount) comes when bullets are travelling in the happy zone, some think pushing 105 class bullets at speeds over 3200fps is taking them out of their comfort zone, as such case capacity for a 6mm bullet might be optimised at Dasher or slightly less BRA volumes and going bigger just doesn't improve things, in fact possibly quite the opposite.

Im quite comfortable with the idea that many experienced shooters have trodden the path before me and done a lot of the leg work already, if there was anything much better available we would know about it, much like the 6 PPC at 100yds.

 

[Big Al]

36 minutes ago, The Gun Pimp said:

The 6x47 won the UKBRA 1000 yd Light Gun Championship a couple of years ago.  Recoil (and therefore gun-handling) isn't much different than a 6BR.

It's a valid, capable 1000 yd BR round but requires a bit of case-forming - which means you tend to hang on to your brass a bit too long.....

Run a 'straight' 6BR and your brass comes right out of the box - remember, nothing shoots like new brass!

The new Norma Dasher brass is a great step forward for the same reason but some don't like the price!  However, factor in case-forming costs and it's good value!

Really, it's down to the competitor - shoot what you fancy and hope to beat the rest of us.

 

Is picking what you fancy and hoping to win really the best method Vince for success? 

Some would argue that choosing the right caliber and meticulous attention to detail in the rifle build and load development would go much further? 

I also feel the power of prayer should never be underestimated  

Ive also wondered about this 'nothing shoots like new brass concept'  - what exactly do you mean by that? I ask because I feel like my brass gets better with a little use, things seem to settle down after a couple of firings and then I get my most consistent results so long as Im not running things so hot that they are knackered after 3 firings.

[Big Al]

1 hour ago, No i deer said:

As I've started this topic the 243 and the more recent 6mm slr don't seem to be a popular 1000yds benchrest 

Are you planning to shoot 1000yd benchrest at Diggle this season?

[gbal]

The calibre options for competitive 1000y shooting are now reasonably well explored,at a practical level-and here consistent success,not a one off,matters;and it is straightforward enough to specify the ballistics etc needed for comparability with successful cartridges(theory ,if you will-but entirely consistent with the practical  experience-or vice versa).

The calibres start in effect with 6mm ,through the 6.5,to 7mm. (224 cal is a labour of love/hope that is unlikely to  succeeed-Laurie has done the work, with 223 and saved others-fun maybe,but a serious competitioon 1000y cartridfge,no.Nor will every cartridge in the 6 through 7 mm be worth trying.The 30 calibre non mags are OK and anyone with  the versatile 308w who wants to try 1000y shooting can use that,and may have modest success-but not podiums. The 30 magnums are getting just too much to shoot very well,but some may manage them;the 338 class likewise.

    The requirements are summarisible-to be really competitive you need a rig (and shooter) that can consistently shoot 1/2 moa 5 shot groups at 1000y  (and a tad pro rata as wind gets challenging).

That means pretty good precision from the rig and ammo (precision being the consistency of POI-essentially what we mean by grouping potential of the rig/ammo/shooter....and 1/2 moa is where success might be expected to begin (but isn't the only factor)

    For group shooting-anywhere 'on target' is a neccessary and sufficient conditio.Increasingly-and in some competitions like F class-shooting for score is the game,and that means the precision group must also be centered on the bull-acuracy refers to the shooting solutions applied by the shooter to achieve that ,so precision and accuracy are essential-you have to hit the bull,not just the paper somewhere(wind allowance remains the major problem).

    Shootability/gun handlimng/control comes in-the major indeterminate factor (ie can't be measured consistently -as eg MV can be,or range-this being a given) is wind,or rather wind variation during the course of fire of 5 shots.The mag 30s approach is to 'beat the wind' by cartridge power-they will have less drift,so any % error in estimation of the wind will be less.Downside is 'recoil'-given weight limits especially,but the real issue is loss of control in getting back on  bull for the next shot-so the string is shot over a longer time and the chances of variable wind meanwhile increase...

....hence the 6mm approach-the shots can be 'rattled off' relatively fast-say 20 seconds/less,on average the chance of being caught by a wind change is so reduced;even faster with the heavier rigs (50 lband rising)-recoil displacement of aim -already modest with most 6mms,is considerable further reduced by weight,and next shot is  faster)

    As Al says,though intrinsic precision and attainable shooter accuracy are very important-and the better 6s have that (eg 6BR was designed as a competition winner for score 300y matches,though a tad more puff helps at long range-BRA/Dashers etc)

The rightly popular 7 mms do well ballistically,though not quite so well on shootability,while the 6.5s have a decent combination of  relevant virtues,but just a bit less recoil than the 7s-so a little manageable (but not ballistically better).New  better BC bullets can change the options.

   Precision is probably as much a factor of barrel and expert gunsmithing than the preserve of any one calibre-and some cartridges within a calibre seem to show an edge-and  are  selected preferentially. Sometimes new contenders come along (but nowt has ousted the 6PPC for 1/200 y precision  in 50 odd years-so don't wait too long-and 1000y shooting is more complex.

   OK,just a brief outline should indicate the general  choices-and the pros/cons of various strategies. Conditions on the day-wind- might nudge in favour of some calibres/strategies too-one reason the mid 7s are popular-they are quite good in most conditions. I daresay shooter personality might be a factor,as usual-no bad thing-it's a hobby mostly,and personal enjoymant should be way up the list of  hed for returns.

    For some,costs (overall probably not too different for comparable choices),and the interest in /wish to avoid any 'wildcatting'/case work etc will be important-OK,there are options either way.

 But there is  no real substitute for careful,observant practice-especially in wind reading,if possible on the actual ranges where competitions are held-they all have ...err local 'challenges'.

Don't forget shooting is seldom entirely predictable/determinate/under full shooter control ( almost all the salient parameters can change esp ammo ballistics -mvSD is seldom zero) and  atmospheric conditions,especially wind.)

  There is additionally,a random chance factor-(did nothing much wrong,got a subtle,tricky wind condition eg ), ...accept this element of luck,both when you do well and when you don't do quite so well. Consistency matters.

As in golf,so you may be reassured by Gary Player's philosophy on the vagaries of fortune over his career:

"Yes,luck comes in-I've noticed that the more I practice,the luckier I get".

 

Good and enjoyable shooting,whatever (suitable) calibre you choose/fancy.

 

gbal

 

  

[No i deer]

4 hours ago, Big Al said:

Are you planning to shoot 1000yd benchrest at Diggle this season?

I would very much like to but no.

5 and a half hours drive to shoot 40 bullets to drive 5 and a half hours home is something that I wouldn't do Al.

There is some new  Norma dasher brass for sell on stalking directory for £120 plus p&p.i am not familiar with the calibre so I don' know if thats good or bad.

[No i deer]

If or when i do any br i will have the knowledge and right equipment to do so from all the answers I get from you experts.i would be more likely try f class first.

[The Gun Pimp]

7 hours ago, Big Al said:

Is picking what you fancy and hoping to win really the best method Vince for success? 

Some would argue that choosing the right caliber and meticulous attention to detail in the rifle build and load development would go much further? 

I also feel the power of prayer should never be underestimated  

Ive also wondered about this 'nothing shoots like new brass concept'  - what exactly do you mean by that? I ask because I feel like my brass gets better with a little use, things seem to settle down after a couple of firings and then I get my most consistent results so long as Im not running things so hot that they are knackered after 3 firings.

Nothing shoots like new brass?  How often have you heard shooters say "I was only fireforming but my groups were bla bla bla."

Al, probably this applies more to factory rifles than custom guns - where a couple of firings might be needed to bring the best out of the brass.

Having said that, it's a proven fact that the grain structure of the brass alters after five or six firings - so the old adage still applies - change your brass as often as you can afford to.

You'd be surprised at how many top shooters at a benchrest World Championships neck-turn a new set of cases every day - they know.......

[Big Al]

1 hour ago, The Gun Pimp said:

Al, probably this applies more to factory rifles than custom guns - where a couple of firings might be needed to bring the best out of the brass.

Having said that, it's a proven fact that the grain structure of the brass alters after five or six firings - so the old adage still applies - change your brass as often as you can afford to.

You'd be surprised at how many top shooters at a benchrest World Championships neck-turn a new set of cases every day - they know.......

I would agree Vince, a couple of firing seems to get everything settled in nicely.

Ive been using an AMP annealer for a while now so my grain structure gets reset every firing if we can believe the information they give us, my brass seems very consistent since i started using it though so there may be something in it.

 

[No i deer]

A lot of my brass has just be through the AMP annealer.i will be loading some of my freshly annealed 284 brass for sunday week for 1000yds shoot.