Tikka T3 - Just how good are they?

[Finman]

Morning all,

 

I absolutely love the 6.5x55, and the one red that I shot fell to the spot with a 120gn Sierra pro hunter... But, if there are quibbles over the 6.5, another calibre that should be thrown into the mix is the 7-08... Gives a .308 bolt face which will allow rebarrel to a different calibre easy (should the need or desire arises) and is a competent cartridge on its own right with plenty of choice for the reloaded, plus over the counter ammo...just a thought

 

Best wishes

 

Finman

[dannywayoflife]

Tikka t3's are awesome! I was at Bisley load testing yesterday at 200 and my factory rifle (all be it with a customs stock) shot a .4" 5 shot group at 200 I was pretty pleased

[5R-Twist]

Hi Mad Spaniel

I Have owned 2 tikka t3 rifles for about 3-4 years now one in .243 for foxing and close deer and a .308 deer stalking rifle.

Only thing I can say on mine are they have never let me down, In fact the .243 gets a lot of use and I have not touched the scope adjustments for over 2 years it seems to be on the money when ever I check zero.

Even found them very capable on range days.

That may be helpful ish?

Viv

[patjack]

Sorry to be the odd one out...

I had a .308 varmint S/S when it replaced the 595/695 did not like it at all worse bit of plastic junk as a stock as flexible as could be very sloppy action and a very poor substitute for what it replaced.

 

Have a 595/695 and so much nicer in all respects.

[triggersqueezer]

Sorry to be the odd one out...

I had a .308 varmint S/S when it replaced the 595/695 did not like it at all worse bit of plastic junk as a stock as flexible as could be very sloppy action and a very poor substitute for what it replaced.

 

Have a 595/695 and so much nicer in all respects.

flog him at once.

another tikka fan here

[Ronin]

Every T3 ive re-barrelled has shot very consistently with no issues raised by the end users,

 

They make an excellent donor rifle action for a semi custom..

[Laurie]

Intereresting your saying that Devon stalkers go for 30s. Speaking to Callum Ferguson of Precision Rifle Services way up in north Scotland about this a few years back, he told me that .30-06 and .270 Win are rarely used by Scottish stalkers now. His favourite deer calibre is .260 Rem and he's built many such for his clients, recommending a short throating to suit the 100gn Nosler Partition, a bullet introduced specifically for the cartridge. Despite its low weight, I was assured it'll take any Scottish deer including the larger reds with 100% reliability.

 

I personally would plump for the Tikka Varmint in 6.5X55mm, a very accurate combination if a little heavy for a lot of carrying in the field. When you look at the ballistics, remember that 6.5X55mm factory cartridges are deliberately underloaded and that most loads data in reloading manuals are very conservative thanks to the survival of lots of late 19th / early 20th century military rifles whose ammo is best kept down to around 45,000 psi pressures. I've managed to just break 3,000 fps with the 139 Lapua Scenar in a 30-inch barrel 6.5X55mm target rifle built on a Savage 12 PTA action. The Lapua cases weren't scrap afterwards either, although this is a silly loading and primer pockets would almost certainly open up after two or three such loads. Subsequent load development saw a near full case of Viht N165 give the 140gn Berger LRBT just over 2,900 fps and quarter to third-MOA 5-round 100 yard groups.

 

By comparison, the same 30-inch barrel produced 2,596 fps from Lapua 139gn Scenar Match factory ammo (claimed MV = 800 m/s or 2,625 fps) and a pathetic 2,487 fps from Hornady 140gn PSP deer ammo, the ES no less than 126 fps with an SD of 38.4! Groups were pretty uninspiring too, so 6.5X55mm is very much a handloading proposition - but as you have a custom 6.5X47L, I doubt if that's an issue for you?

[Jagged 77]

I had my T3 stainless varmint rebarrelled to .260 and have been pleased with its performance. I matched it up with a manners T4 plus CDI DBM to take AICS mags and it makes the action super smooth on chambering from the mag. I also have a varmint stainless in .243 with original factory barrell, this sits in a KKC stock (again with CDI DBM), this rifle just plain shoots. I'm a big fan of the T3's without a doubt.

[gbal]

Some interesting stuff in the replies.Generally its the cartridge rather than the rifle that is responsible for terminal performance,and it is unlikely the owners of X would have had different success with Y (Tikka,Sako eg for an easy comparison) but the observations stand.Price becomes an issue if a rifle has to be restocked to be acceptable,and changes the 'value' criterion.That said,modifications do make rifles shoot better,and perhaps as importantly,comfortably.,and can directly affect felt recoil.As of course can upping loads from rather conservative factory offerings-though ultimate velocity is not always the hunters best friend.

We can have a look a some measured recoil and Knock Out/down data,bearing in mind the above,so there will be some variation:

 

6.5 x 55 Relative Recoil Factor 1.72 Taylor KO Index 15

270 1.82 16

260 1.73 14.5

7x57 1.68 16

708 1.80 16

308 1.95 20.5

3006 2.19 21.4

 

Remember,these are representative data for commercial ammo-no doubt some (6.5x55) could be improved-and there is some variation with eg bullet weight within a cartridge,just as there is for energy.etc.No great surprises?

 

243 is 1.25 and 10 (heavy bullets) as some kind of base line for the bigger beasties.

 

As far as I know,there is no real data comparing different rifles for felt recoil,and it is a bit subjective.

Gbal

[Ronin]

I dont think you could ever have a scientific method of measuring recoil - when you add in the human factor becuase one rifle that fits someone and doesnt kick them may well kick another person whos body shape isnt suited to the stock.

 

All about fit and body mechanics during the recoil phase.

[gbal]

I dont think you could ever have a scientific method of measuring recoil - when you add in the human factor becuase one rifle that fits someone and doesnt kick them may well kick another person whos body shape isnt suited to the stock.

 

All about fit and body mechanics during the recoil phase.

Newton laws come close to measureable scientific principles.

 

But I agree,and said as much while giving the measured data-as a psychologist,I'd even add in that what you think/want/feel about a cartridge or rifle might colour your perceptions of recoil,wihout any physical factor.

But fit etc is very important-one reason the great Edwardian game shotgunners had bespoke,but also individually fitted to perfection guns ,was to minimise recoil effects-they were shooting a lot,and most days!

 

Averaged over rather large numbers and shapes etc,the data don't seem to hold any surprises,but of course for any Individual,felt recoil is certainly modifiable,by good stock design and individual fitting.And a moderator etc.Agreed-but the data indicate where you start from,at least.

Gbal

[Laurie]

...............though ultimate velocity is not always the hunters best friend.

 

 

 

Point taken George. I don't suggest prospective 6.5X55mm sporting users look to get 2,900 fps or whatever out of 140s from their rifles, rather was suggesting that the current factory fodder is so underloaded at ~42,000 psi pressures that it not only wastes the cartridge's ballistic potential, but actually produces very inefficient products.

 

Hence the 100 fps + ES I got from the Hornady deer cartridges in an almost new match quality barrel. Another common occurence with factory 6.5X55mm and even many handloads based on conservative data is badly sooted cases thanks to over slow pressure build up and the case not obturating fully in the chamber. This can be so bad that large 'gas dents' are created in the shoulder / top of the case-body area.

 

In a modern action such as the Tikka T3 and with good quality Norma and Lapua brass, there is no reason to restrict the 6.5's pressures to 19th century low 40,000s psi levels. Something around 10,000-12,000 psi higher than factory levels giving mid to high 50s realises the cartridge's potential in both ballistics and precision and will still shoot comfortably and give good barrel and case life.

[Laurie]

PS I've always had a soft spot for the old .30-06 having started my fullbore shooting with a surplus shot-out Springfield M1903 US service rifle a long, long time ago. (So long ago, it cost me all of £75 - see what any clapped-out M1903 costs today!) The M1903 - now there's a stock design that produces generous felt recoil with anything more potent than .22 Long Rifle!

 

I'm currently revisting the cartridge with an old P14 based bitzer target rifle and a cheapo Spanish Begara 26-inch barrel on it. They always say don't revisit old loves or holiday resorts, and I'm afraid I'm finding the truth of that old saw. Even in a heavy target piece, the .30-06 is a bit of a kicker - surprising since it's noit that much more potent than a 308 with heavy bullet and full-house long range load.

[gbal]

Point taken George. I don't suggest prospective 6.5X55mm sporting users look to get 2,900 fps or whatever out of 140s from their rifles, rather was suggesting that the current factory fodder is so underloaded at ~42,000 psi pressures that it not only wastes the cartridge's ballistic potential, but actually produces very inefficient products.

 

Hence the 100 fps + ES I got from the Hornady deer cartridges in an almost new match quality barrel. Another common occurence with factory 6.5X55mm and even many handloads based on conservative data is badly sooted cases thanks to over slow pressure build up and the case not obturating fully in the chamber. This can be so bad that large 'gas dents' are created in the shoulder / top of the case-body area.

 

In a modern action such as the Tikka T3 and with good quality Norma and Lapua brass, there is no reason to restrict the 6.5's pressures to 19th century low 40,000s psi levels. Something around 10,000-12,000 psi higher than factory levels giving mid to high 50s realises the cartridge's potential in both ballistics and precision and will still shoot comfortably and give good barrel and case life.

Absolutely,Laurie

Sometimes meat damage increases with weatherby type ultimate velocities,but some commercial loads are anaemic.(as in my pet,6.5x54 M/S,but they will do,and I would not want to risk that rifle).

Some comments did suggest to me a look at the recoil/Taylor KOs,which I have just posted,and that does back up your point for the potential of the 6.5X55 in modern rifles,or at least the very modest commercial loadings for it,and your data shows why it is so popular,and rightly so,with modern loadings,even if much of it's reputation was derived from more modest loads-that worked well.

Something to be gained by the Ackley Improved too,for competition use.

 

Gbal

[gbal]

I dont think you could ever have a scientific method of measuring recoil - when you add in the human factor becuase one rifle that fits someone and doesnt kick them may well kick another person whos body shape isnt suited to the stock.

 

All about fit and body mechanics during the recoil phase.

Yes,as follows:

 

A while back we were trying a double 470 nitro express ("My kenya varmint gun").

I found it exhilarating;one friend was instantly bruised,and another,managed a double discharge,and merely said"I thought it was a bit louder."

 

Kind of sums it up!!

 

Gbal

[Laurie]

 

Something to be gained by the Ackley Improved too,for competition use.

 

Gbal

 

Vince Bottomley ('The Gun Pimp' on this forum) has always been of the view that 6.5X55mm AI should be the ultimate 6.5mm long-range match cartridge as the 260's case is a bit too small, and the 6.5-284's a bit too big.

 

I've thought about it more than once, but the absence of off the shelf dies has always put me off.

 

Talking early cartridges' reputations for effectiveness, produces four very similar looking beasties in different sizes and calibres - 6.5X54MS and 6.5X55mm with 160gn RNSPs; 7X57mm with 173/175gn RNSPs, the .318 Nitro-Express (basically .30-06 necked up to take 0.330" dia. 200 or 250gn RN FMJ or RNSP bullets).

 

In an age when expanding bullet performance on game was much less predictable and reliable than todays' numbers and of course long before all-copper Barnes TSX or premium bonded core or twin-core bullets had appeared, these relatively low velocity numbers whose immensely long-for-calibre bullets produced very high sectional density values, worked like nothing else. Not only did they (still do) give enormous penetration, but low terminal velocities saw them behave consistently after striking, expand reliably with their huge exposed lead noses, and crucially stay in one piece despite being simple 'cup and core' designs long before anybody invented jacket-core interlocks, bonding etc. There is still a lot to be said for this approach, but I suspect the environmentalists will force stalkers and varmint shooters down the no-lead route before we're done.

[tony]

Interesting posts on the 6.5x55. Have to say that I have used this cal for deer stalking for the last 10 years and swear by it.

[Chris-NZ]

Laurie-

 

with regard to the Ackley Swede, I wouldn't bother. Tony Halberg (of Millennium fame) quickly found in his own guns and those of several other guys here that they give ~95% of 6.5-284 performance but with no appreciable gain in barrel life. I'm afraid like most things in life, ya get nuthin' for nuthin'.

[Laurie]

Chris,

 

Vince's point is that 6.5-284 Norma has just a little too much case capacity so many loads don't provide a 100% fill-ratio, and some suitable powders struggle to better 90%. The 6.5X55mm AI offers near 6.5-284 performance and charges of suitable poewders fill the case to the bullet base or provide a small degree of compression, the theoretically ideal case to calibre to bullet weight situation for ballistic consistency.

 

In practice, a good 6.5-284 performs so well, theoretically non-optimum case capacity or not, that it doesn't appear to be a real issue and the 6.5X55mm + 6.5-284 Norma pair provide a good choice with no need to use an intermediate which doesn't have any factory dies. Either take the 6.5X55 and lose a bit of performance but see a barrel life gain, or choose the bigger number and get a bit more performance but considerably shorter barrel life if you use all of it.

[jungle_re]

Some interesting reading there. I've not long ago acquired a 6.5x55 t3 as an intermediate rifle while waiting on customs. All factory other than the stock, been really happy with it. First time home loading also which has been a big and nervous learning curve as no one I know hand loads to show me. Goi to have to try and up the loads after reading this to gain some more speed. I've been loading SST 140gr and although its not fast at just over 2500fps it's been very accurate and did the business on good size deer. I'm going to try and up the speed for the scenar if I get chance before it moves on. Not had any long range target rifles only ever target small bore and hunting rifles and I can't fault the t3 thus far in this regards.

 

5 shots at under 0.25" @ 100m

[Offroad Gary]

Ive just found and agreed to buy a .243 hunter which will replace my long term r93 as my foxing rifle. Flirted with a cooper 6br for a while but it wasnt me, like to have a couple more sat under the bolt! Expecting good things, ive had a .223 t3 before and i load for a couple of friends tikkas in .223 and .243 which shoot very well.

[Chris-NZ]

Laurie-

 

I needed to read a bit further back in the thread.. I take your point about case capacity in the AI Swede v 6.5-284.

 

This is pretty much the same comparison as the 7 SAUM v the 7 WSM. It's a shame the SAUM never really took off as it's a better case design in both capacity and neck length.