Howa 1500 action worth re barrel?

[Tikka4Sika]

Considering having a Howa1500 re barreled , currently.308 , thinking of 6.5x47 or similar for long range paper and vermin, is a Howa good enough / worth using or will it still be an average rifle?

[gbal]

The 6.5x47 class-eg CM with small flash brass- will have ballistic advantages over 308w for the uses mentioned (except where 308 is 'needed' by the rule book).

The main factor in rifle precision (accuracy includes the shooter,but the 6.5 are also a bit 'easier' to shoot than is 308w) is the barrel.

Retrofit barrels are on average better than factory barrels,and the better,premium barrels are ,on average,somewhat better than others-either absolutely,or in the higher number of exceptional barrels/or fewer average barrels.

 

It follows that a (premium) rebarrel,competently fitted,will improve precision,with a high probability,but just how much is almost impossible to measure in general.

The action is also a component/factor,but a fair bit less.Again,no real measurements are available,and we have to go on.experience-we hear few ccomplaints of a premium barrel reducing precision,and very few custom actions are retrofitted with 'factory' barrels...or at least we don't often then hear about improved precision! Very expensive 'factory' may reduce these probabilities,just as economy models tend to lessen the odds of very good pecision.

 

Cost of course is an issue-it has to be subjective. As is likely depreciation with the various options."Blueprinting" tries to close the gap...same issues of long term cost effectiveness.

 

SO,all that can be said with the reasonable evidence available,is that fitting a premium barrel will improve precision,even in a factory action;but it won't equal that same barrel in a custom action.The differnces may be quite small,and may not be significant for some uses-serious competition excepted.

IF a choice is unavoidable on cost terms,barrel wins over action.

Remember too,barrels are a consumable,and may well need replacing,sooner or later. That might just conceivably figure in a long term view,since actions last,but I don't see how it changes ultimate lay out for ultimate performance.....simply put,a well used custom action/premium barrel rig will still cost more than a rebarrrel on a factory action....but may allow the custom rebarrel in the furure,if the used barrel's performance really drops off.........That would have tempted me in another life/wife....but the strategy needs more £ now than a new barrel....being a psychologist though,I'd hesitate to advise on essentially rational/personality factors-short term/longer term etc...

 

I rather imagine we all know this-just ask what you'd like to win in a competition/raffle,so cost isn't a contaminant!)

 

gbal

[Tikka4Sika]

Thanks G , very interesting and helpful as usual.

[1971silversurfer]

This may sound silly, but don't plan on re-barrelling your Howa if u plan on selling it. Secondly, if you plan on keeping it... do it if you can find a smith that will tackle doing it,

 

I suggest you consider a large primer 6.5 calibre like the .260Rem or an improved version to save any pin work? I re-barrelled my Howa with a GB barrel in a Sendero profile, kept it at the same .243Win calibre. which I was happy with and it is far, far more accurate than an already accurate rifle- before its modification.

 

You won't regret it....

 

 

M.

[Big Al]

Considering having a Howa1500 re barreled , currently.308 , thinking of 6.5x47 or similar for long range paper and vermin, is a Howa good enough / worth using or will it still be an average rifle?

 

 

Yes, your Howa action is well worth rebarreling, I have done quite a few now and all have shot very well after load development. If you add a Rifle Basix trigger and a decent stock you will have something more than capable for long range vermin and target.

 

6.5x47 is a great caliber, you wont be disappointed.

[Big Al]

fitting a premium barrel will improve precision,even in a factory action;but it won't equal that same barrel in a custom action.

 

There may be lots of anecdotal evidence but Im not sure there is much hard data to back that statement up George - custom v factory action in terms of accuracy, all other things being equal? I know all the lovely custom guns in the hands of the top shooters would suggest it but I couldn't justify £2200 for a BAT so made do with an old Tikka from my safe.

 

This 25yr old Tikka (no blueprinting whatsoever) seems to be more than a match for the 1000yd custom guns at Diggle. As you have said many times, a good barrel that is well fitted and some diligent load development will bring by far the biggest gains in accuracy.

 

 

I even went to the trouble of milling a left port in it to make it less rigid and it still works well

 

[Tikka4Sika]

 

There may be lots of anecdotal evidence but Im not sure there is much hard data to back that statement up George - custom v factory action in terms of accuracy, all other things being equal? I know all the lovely custom guns in the hands of the top shooters would suggest it but I couldn't justify £2200 for a BAT so made do with an old Tikka from my safe.

 

This 25yr old Tikka (no blueprinting whatsoever) seems to be more than a match for the 1000yd custom guns at Diggle. As you have said many times, a good barrel that is well fitted and some diligent load development will bring by far the biggest gains in accuracy.

 

IMG_1581.jpg

 

I even went to the trouble of milling a left port in it to make it less rigid and it still works well

 

IMG_1582 (1).jpg

Why would you want the receiver less rigid? surely the less flex the better ? or is it to equalise the stresses?

[Big Al]

Why would you want the receiver less rigid? surely the less flex the better ? or is it to equalise the stresses?

 

 

I was pulling Georges leg a little - rigid is good but clearly another full size port made no difference in this action.

[Tikka4Sika]

[Laurie]

This may sound silly, but don't plan on re-barrelling your Howa if u plan on selling it. Secondly, if you plan on keeping it... do it if you can find a smith that will tackle doing it,

 

I suggest you consider a large primer 6.5 calibre like the .260Rem or an improved version to save any pin work? I re-barrelled my Howa with a GB barrel in a Sendero profile, kept it at the same .243Win calibre. which I was happy with and it is far, far more accurate than an already accurate rifle- before its modification.

 

You won't regret it....

 

 

M.

 

 

I'd agree 100% - I've found the 1500 action a perfectly sound base. Like recent Remingtons, a better trigger as Big Al suggests is maybe not a 'must-have', but not far off. The main feature of the Howa has nothing to do with design or build quality, rather its perceived value on the secondhand market. Great for a buyer, terrible as a seller!

 

The only complaint most gunsmiths have in being asked to rebarrel them is that it is usually an absolute b*gg*r to get the old one off - 'tight' understates it.

[1971silversurfer]

 

 

I'd agree 100% - I've found the 1500 action a perfectly sound base. Like recent Remingtons, a better trigger as Big Al suggests is maybe not a 'must-have', but not far off. The main feature of the Howa has nothing to do with design or build quality, rather its perceived value on the secondhand market. Great for a buyer, terrible as a seller!

 

The only complaint most gunsmiths have in being asked to rebarrel them is that it is usually an absolute b*gg*r to get the old one off - 'tight' understates it.

 

Thanks Laurie

[Chris-NZ]

..

 

The only complaint most gunsmiths have in being asked to rebarrel them is that it is usually an absolute b*gg*r to get the old one off - 'tight' understates it.

 

Can't be a lot worse than T3s Laurie. My gunsmith tells me they're the tightest (common) thing around. They are all over 100 ft-lbs with no anti-sieze on the threads. They let go with a real crack at times.

[Big Al]

 

Can't be a lot worse than T3s Laurie. My gunsmith tells me they're the tightest (common) thing around. They are all over 100 ft-lbs with no anti-sieze on the threads. They let go with a real crack at times.

 

 

Ive haven't found that to be the case at all Chris, most Tikka barrels come off easy enough although there is always the option for a bad one.

 

Ive had a few Howas that have needed some intervention in the form of a relief cut making in the barrel as close as you can get to the action without touching it and about 0.060" deep, this relieves the pressure on the thread as you have taken the shoulder it is tensioned against away, they usually come of relatively easy after that.

[gbal]

I was pulling Georges leg a little - rigid is good but clearly another full size port made no difference in this action.

Indeed,read as such,Al.

 

Tikka4Sika-Al could probably justify the extra port as giving a speed loading advantage-left port/right bolt (or vica versa for LHers) is currently very sensible-even at a very slight receiver cost in precision-untested- the fast firing of a string of shots-maybe 15 secs-reduces the chance of getting caught by a wind change-by far still the biggest variable in shooting with competent rigs.

AL,your Tikka is probably a one off/until you do another one/dozen (pat on the back,not leg pull)...but it isn't a statement changer-custom action with custom barrel absolutely dominate serious competition shooting-not just 100/200 Bench Rest,but also 1000Bench Rest and Precision Rifle,where such absoloute precision isn't quite essential-but of course,desireable.

I agree ther isn't much direct evidence-though the above is hardly anecdotal,but comes from 'real firing' over very large samples-hundreds in big US comps (as you agree). Something other than Custom all the way occasionally comes close,but not consistently better,and sometimes then it's similarly expensive...

 

As a value for money,a good action (biases here-Sako for me,older ones) then fitted with a custom barrel,Bartlein/BruxBroughton/Krieger...or any of the others... will give a rig capable of meeting most needs-save the most demanding -real or imagined! A custom action alone will run well over $1000 dollars,getting on for $2000 for some...now just as a tease,currently in US (Accurate shooter bulletin this week) a Howa 1500 barreled action in 6.5CM can be had for $449.99 (in US),and a complete Howa Lightening rifle for $299.99. Not here,of course,a fitted,proofed custom barrel-£850 ish?

As a pretty good correlation of cost/performance ratio (correlation since the absolute improvements are by no means linear or a steady % of costs).I'd rank thus: Action-barrel,F =factory,C=Custom:

 

F-F

C-F

F-C

C-C

Super C-C

SuperC-SuperC

 

Not saying which is best,but "super' is a clue-not all actions/barrels are equal,even in a category like C,or F

 

And as before,personality may well come in-the 'perfectionist' feel/good ,ownership pleasure...or whatever factor.This does not mean anything 'lesser' will miss,and it will cost less-much less usually.

I've had/got most combinations ...and 'best' has to factor in 'what is it used for' -"most expensive" does not!

 

"It's a hobby,so enjoy and shoot well."

 

g

[Dellboy]

So what sort of price would a 6.5 cm rebarel (heavy 26inch) on a 1500 howa cost

[baldie]

Howa's usually shoot well when re barrelled. Thats if the action is worth using in the first place however.

 

These actions vary greatly in quality. That seems to have gone south of late. I've had no end in the workshop with extractor/ejector problems, but far more with chamber trouble. They seem to have been chambered with a blunt drill, some of them.

 

The stainless ones usually Gall on barrel removal, which means the action has to go in the lathe, pick the thread up, and recut oversize....

 

The blued ones flatly refuse to part with their barrels, unless relief cut.....barrells blued in situ with the action.....chamber....the lot.

 

The Howa was designed to be a better version of the rem 700. It failed on two major points.

 

The tenon is stupidly short and they have used a fine metric thread into a cast receiver.

 

The bolt nose recess has to be at least 0.050" bigger than the bolt nose to allow the extractor to open/close over a case. This completely negates the Remington "ring of steel" theory, which gives bolt nose support to a ruptured case. It might as well not be there, and the barrel fitted Tikka style with no bolt nose recess.

 

As previously mentioned. Unless you plan to keep the gun , its basically polishing a turd with the resultant s/h value.

[Tikka4Sika]

Howa's usually shoot well when re barrelled. Thats if the action is worth using in the first place however.

 

These actions vary greatly in quality. That seems to have gone south of late. I've had no end in the workshop with extractor/ejector problems, but far more with chamber trouble. They seem to have been chambered with a blunt drill, some of them.

 

The stainless ones usually Gall on barrel removal, which means the action has to go in the lathe, pick the thread up, and recut oversize....

 

The blued ones flatly refuse to part with their barrels, unless relief cut.....barrells blued in situ with the action.....chamber....the lot.

 

The Howa was designed to be a better version of the rem 700. It failed on two major points.

 

The tenon is stupidly short and they have used a fine metric thread into a cast receiver.

 

The bolt nose recess has to be at least 0.050" bigger than the bolt nose to allow the extractor to open/close over a case. This completely negates the Remington "ring of steel" theory, which gives bolt nose support to a ruptured case. It might as well not be there, and the barrel fitted Tikka style with no bolt nose recess.

 

As previously mentioned. Unless you plan to keep the gun , its basically polishing a turd with the resultant s/h value.

I think your last line sums it up a treat.