into the lands

[silentsoulsleave308holes]

right, now for a BIG rant

 

been on another forum where they were going on about seating into the lands this and seating into the lands that, so I thought I would upset some people

 

ok it sounds fancy and sophisticated but fact is its impossible

 

when using a bullet seating die to seat bullets, the die is STEEL and the BULLET is COPPER, the two are HARDER than BRASS and so the BRASS case gives way to the STEEL and COPPER and allows the bullet to be pushed in, well it does for me anyhows or I wouldnt be able to seat my bullets into the cases

 

NOW the same process happens when a bullet is seated out LONGER than touching the lands, the bullet cant get pushed into the steel cause the brass holder(case) is much softer than than the copper or steel and so only gets pushed back into the case unless people are using steel cases these days

 

If you seat 10,15 or 100 thou out longer than touching the lands it only gets pushed back into the BRASS case to be tight against the lands, so all you are really doing is ensuring tight fit against the rifling

 

its physically impossible and just sounds good when talking to the dickie dinkles

 

rant over

 

ja

[6mmBR]

Nice rant Jamie, feel better

In effect as you say all you are doing is soft seating the bullet. Hence when you close the bolt you feel slight resistance on the last fraction of a turn of the bolt as the bullet gets seated into the case and is a snug fit to the leade of the rifling.

Cheeers

Dave

[Guest PeteR]

good rant - please explain other technical term "dickie dinkles"

[Ronin]

Excellent rant,

 

seating into the lands usually only applies to VLD bullets where the shank (bullet body) is quite short and there is a chance of the bullet "twizzling" before it reaches the throat and lands. If one seats .100" / .020" or .010" into the lands the bullet ogive will centre itself in the rifling and then the bullet is pushed deeper into the case when the bolt is fully closed (provided the bullet hasn't been crimped )

 

All seating into the lands does is make the bullet concentric to the throat / lands area. Not recomended with hunting rounds because sometimes one never fires a shot and then when one removes the case from the chamber, the bullet is found to be stuck in the rifling and we see powder spread all over the action. If such a stuck bullet is removed from the throat area we will see tiny marks at the ogive (rifling marks) where the bullet has been pressed into the rifling just a teeny weeny bit.

 

Best practice, be careful!

 

 

 

Now whats a dinkle dickie and a twizle

[Vermincinerator]

Silent,

Sorry mate but you are wrong, cartridge brass at 64 on the Rockwell F scale runs approx 40% harder then then the common gilding metal used for bullet jackets which is 40-46 Rockwell F.

There are a lot more issues to take into account ie. coefficients of friction and factors of crush, both of which are to complicated for me to expand on.

The reason why you can seat a softer alloy bullet into a harder case is because the brass has more elastic properties and is less maleable then the jacket material, dont forget the same applies to lead bullets.

IMO if you seat a bullet to engrave into the lands and it is pushed back into the case on closing the bolt, then you dont have enough neck tension.

Apply the correct amount of neck tension and the softer alloy of your seated out bullet will indeed engrave into the lands.

 

Ian.

[silentsoulsleave308holes]

yes of course the lands will mark the copper cause its softer

 

how much neck tension do you want?

 

I go for three thou but most go for 2thou and this is with bullets seated for a jump

 

seating to the lands or further so the bullet is engaged to the rifling or soft seating as its commonly called requires less neck tension not more

 

many benchrest shooters that soft seat ie load long and let the rifling push the round back into the case do so for a more uniformed and consistant seat, often one thou or sometimes less ie the bullet can be manually pushed in if you were to try so

 

this in no way is a match for the hard face of the lands

 

what I meant was the grip from the brass case( three thou at best) to bullet is no way sufficiant to push the copper bullet into the rifling and I cant see how anyone would argue against this fact

 

also if someone was to read your statement that in your opinion if someone seating out to past the rifling did not have enough neck tension if the bullet pushed back into the case they would be putting themselves at great risk if they increased the tension and could possibly blow themselves up

 

I am sorry but a statement like that shows that you may not fully understand why bench rest shooters do seat out and the modifications they have to make to the case in order to do so safely

[Vermincinerator]

Silent,

We are both talking about different things my friend, you were explaining about soft seat and i was referring to seating hard into the lands with enough neck tension so that bullet stays in place.

I have achieved this with .003" of neck tension and as much as 015" into the lands with VLD bullets.

Using a dummy round, on withdrawel from the chamber the OAL had not changed and the ogive of the bullet was heavily engraved.

My statement of not enough neck tension is precisely summed up in your description of the soft seating and i would in now way condone the use of more then neccessary neck tension to hold the bullet in place.

 

Ian.

[325WSM]

Ian

One aspect you should have stressed is that what you do most others cannot do safely because they do not have either the knowledge and experience or the equipment to ensure each case is identical and each sizing is perfect so the tension is identical case to case.

 

Now one question please.

How do you ensure identical tension in ammunition that has been loaded for even a short period (10days) when variations in the adhesion of bullet to case can create significant differences in release tension so providing different accuracy day by day as the ammunition ages?

[Vermincinerator]

A very valid point 325, thanks for bringing it to my attention.

Ensuring identical tension over a period of time is IMO a variable we as hand loaders cannot control.

We would have to rely on the brass manufacturers to ensure that their metallurgy is up to scratch and they provide us with consistent alloys so that the elastic properties are equal across the batch.

We must then hope that the relaxation of tension over a period of time is also uniform across our batch of cases.

All we can do to help this along is to handload with ultimate care, weighing, measuring and segregating etc... cases into batches of equal weight, wall thickness and capacity.

Apart from Varmint ammo i have loaded up ready to go, for range sessions i either load the day before i go or most of the time i actually load at the range so i would not be likely to come across this phenomena, however, a simple test could be set up to measure this effect by placing the loaded round on a suitable weighing scale sandwiched between the base and the ram of an arbour press.

Start to press the bullet with the ram and record the reading on the scale when the bullet begins to slip.

WARNING!! DO NOT TRY THIS UNLESS YOU KNOW EXACTLY WHAT YOU ARE DOING.

ANY PRESSURE EXERTED ONTO THE PRIMER MAY CAUSE DETENATION OF THE LOADED ROUND.

PRECAUTIONS MUST BE TAKEN TO ENSURE NO PRESSURE IS APPLIED DIRECTLY TO THE PRIMER

 

Ian.

[325WSM]

Actually I tried it in reverse by using a RCBS bullet puller and balance scale on some ammo that had been loaded for about 3 months.

 

The variation was unbelievable; some had 'stuck' and were double the tension of others and at the other extreme a couple were almost loose as they had lost a significant amount of grip. This really surprised me and I can only put it down to remnants of the mica lube that was not totally cleaned out of the neck.

 

I had previously checked some from the same batch after loading and found those I pulled almost identical to each other tension wise.

[Vermincinerator]

325,

You have planted the seeds for a comprehensive test my friend, i shall load up 50 Lapua neck turned 6BR cases with equal initial neck tension, minus powder and primers and leave them on the shelf for 1 month.

I will then perform the test as i described in my previous thread using a digital kitchen scale and post the test criteria and results for all to see.

 

Ian.

[6mmBR]

It will be interesting to see the results Ian. I tend to load in batches so some of my ammo may be on the shelf for months.

Cheers

Dave

[charly hunter]

I wonder what would happen if you tried pulling Ray's head? He's been on the shelf for about 4 years

[foxshot]

A very intresting thing that has started ,do you lads think that it would have adverse effect on accuracy at say upto 250 yds not using a homeload for a period of time,also are factory loads effected in the same way

[Vermincinerator]

It would be great if once the test had been completed the rounds could be shot and the ballistic data could be corralated with the data gathered from the tension tests.

By pulling the bullet and re-seating it, it is likely that the neck tension would be altered enough to make any ballistic data collected from shooting, unrelateable to the tension test and therefore non specific and worthless.

However side by side tests could be undertaken with freshly loaded ammo against ammo that has stood for a length of time, same case same load etc..... to see if there are any detremental effects on accuracy, interpretation of chronograph results may shed some light onto which case had more or less tension, i can feel more testing coming on

 

Ian.

[stag1933]

Some of you guys terrify me!

What happens if you further push the bullet back on to a compressed charge ?

 

I`ve loaded with good results for 40 years and never knowingly `jammed` yet, neither have I worried about neck tension.

I have always assumed that my die maker [usually RCBS] knows more about it than myself.

Neither do I load large batches of rounds, only sufficient for my short term needs.

 

HWH.

[silentsoulsleave308holes]

tests I carried out between 3 thou and 2 thou pinch on saami spec loads uncrimped showed that 3 thou had the edge on shot to shot consistency and also group size

 

2 thou crimped 'v' 3thou uncrimped shared almost identical results

 

a jamming fit would in my oppinion and from what I have recorded on only a couple of tests be greater effected by pinch variants

 

I have radway green bisley target ammo that I use as back up ammo for my 7.62 that were made in 1998 and they still shoot .5moa recorded at 200 yards but have had the same results from a batch made in 86

[325WSM]

Whatever the distance from the lands or the case tension to get consistent results (which is perhaps more important than sheer accuracy) all circumstances have to be identical round to round.

 

That includes the way the rifle is held just as much as how bright the sun is shinning. (10F = 4% increase in pressure). That is why for most of use it is better to find a 'base' setting that perhaps disregards the minute differences corrected by such things as neck turning and how far a bullet sits into the lands by setting a bullet 20-30 off the lands. Round consistency for most of us who only field shoot will inevitably be better even if accuracy is slightly downgraded. In fact most rifles shoot better with 15-30 thou or even more and nominal case tension.

 

Military ammo is sealed against moisture and the seal affords a pretty even release pressure for the bullet throughout the ammunition's shelf life however it is still not immune to pressure differences generated by the theatre in which the ammunition is used. As we all know a small increase in powder does not always simply increase elevation but can provide a slightly different trajectory altogether needing additional windage adjustment as well and the same is true for the pressure increases developed by either by a hot action and a round left in the chamber or by hot weather conditions.

 

My 22-250 is regularly used in temperatures that are up to 20-5 degrees different according to the time of year and I keep two (or 3) different loads of ammo to compensate for those variations but none are less than 25 thou from the lands yet given the applicable conditions all will shoot approx 1/2" groups which is better than I need or can shoot in the field but does give me confidence.

 

That is also something that needs to be in the accuracy equation - confidence. Whatever the load, if you have shot it well, it always seems to give your future shooting of that load a slight edge.

[silentsoulsleave308holes]

in trying to find accuracy with my 300 win mag, my 243 etc I was brave and abandoned seating out and started testing at all seating depths

 

my findings after many tests over more two years of testing groups ( nearly every week due partly to disbelief and to make sure for sure) resulted in me seating all the way back to saami spec as this had the edge on accuracy over seating out just off, touching and jamming, all in stock or standard off the shelf saami spec chambered guns

 

the saami spec loading was a tad better than seating to touch and anything else in between was not as good

 

then along came my parker hale m84 target rifle. well it is designed to be accurate and on my wait for her I did all the home work for loads

 

on testing the 300 winnie I discovered that accuracy is the key ( like thousands before me ). instead of chasing speed, what the superiors were trying to say or hinting is that its matching the right speed for you twist

 

the 300 will handle a large variety of of bullet waits in a one in ten twist but there is a optimum speed to send a projectile down at one turn in ten inches and this turned out to be 2850 fps pretty much from 168gr right upto 220gr she liked to them shoved bown her at 2850 fps

 

spending a lot of time sat at the keyboard searching for what other people found to be most accurate, everytime I found that people who have done similar test by working up loads had found the same

 

now back to the 7.62, she arrived and I initially shot some radway green target over the crono and at the target as these are what she was accurized to shoot and they gave 2600-2650 and got some .5 moa groups (all shot at 20 yards)

 

home loads were loaded to try to match this velocity and that eventually meant 44gr varget, 155 a-max or scenar and cci br2 primers

 

once I had found this I tried 43.5 and 44.5 and either way of 2650 fps she became less accurate but remember the m84 has a one ine fourteen twist so will be different to most off the shelf 7.62/308

 

I had measured the jump to the lands, it was huge and would be impossible to seat out from saami max depth as to seat out near would mean the bullet wouldnt be in the case, in order to get a 308 to just touch the lands and remain very slightly in the neck I would have had to load a 220gr smk

 

she regularly shoots sub .25 moa and is reliable at 1000 yards+(one shot kill on a small melon) with kills on rabbits out behond 850 yards, all seated at saami and with a massive jump

 

this gun is the only one I have owned that does not change p.o.i from summer to winter and the only difference between her and my other guns is a massive jump to the lands

 

everone that has asked me for help with getting their guns to shoot accurately, if they have had a factory standard gun then seating at saami has given them great accuracy and at a gues there must be more than twenty people that have gained by this

 

If people want more evidence then I am sure that fiends on this forum will jump in and post their experiences of saami length seating but remember all my tests showed that seating inbetween max saami and touching were less accurate so be brave

 

dave, go on mate be brave and tell what hapened to your sako 222 ( why did you sell it anyhows???????)

[Redfox]

I'm with WSM/Silent & Stag on this. There is no real need for bullet jamming for what we on here are doing and in some calibres/ rifles its impossible yet they still produce extremely accurate results.

Reloading components today are vastly better than even 5-6 yrs ago, which helps to give consistency and shooting in the field as opposed to one shot "No Rush" benchrest shooting, should not be really done with such ammunition , the opportunity for things to go wrong is much higher under field conditions.

Also in line with WSMs observations, some of the most experienced ammunition makers/ relaoders will make it very clear that there are certain base rules which apply in nearly all situations. One such is that calibres under 25 cal generally shoot better more tha .020" off the lands and calibres above this shoot better.025" - .015" off the lands, where this is possible.

All the testing and reloading I have done supports this theory, for example the 270 is best at .020" off the lands but the 243 is best at .035" off the lands.

They also maintain that once you find the "sweet spot" it holds true for any other bullet in that rifle.

Roy Weatherby maintained that good bullet jump was necessary to develop higher velocities with accuracy and applied it to all his designs.

It also means and again I have done this, that if shooting with a friend using same cal he can use my ammunition without problem or loss of accuracy. Although you need to be certain before doing this as in the event of an unfortunate accident you would be liable. Which is why I dont reload for any one, but will help them and lend the equipment if they want to "roll their own".

Redfox

[millpool]

just spoke to the "fruit murdderes of cornwall" silent and varminter ,shocked that out killing harmless fruit again,should be ashamed of youselves!!!

[millpool]

hi all

their is no doubt that the proof of the pudding is in the eating as they say,i am one of the guys who jamie has helped with my loads,also charly hunter,varmartin,and that well know fruit murderer varminter,have also helped me a lot, oh! i must not forget "onehole"also who has also offerd very sound advice , with jamie,s help ,i now load to saami spec on ALL my rifles they are my

6.5X55 TIKA M690.continental

.308 SSG69

.223 CZ HS varmint

the groups from all these rifles have just improved beyond beleif now that i load to saami length ,o.k so i may not be the best shot in cornwall ,but if my .223 will hit a rabbit at 275 yds shooting downhill ,with the first round what more do i want? my stalking rifle ,1" group at 100yds,my ssg sub half inch at a 100yds ,AND ALL WITH SAAMI LENGTH LOADS. i dont need any more proof than that!

[onehole]

Hello!!Silent and others,Yes I will admit that my sako222 did shoot some really tight groups loaded at saami length and also at true 5 or 10 though off but the bloody thing would not do this consistently and was totally confused whether it liked the moddy off or on or tight bushed on or no bush at all and in the end like any tetchy girlfriend she just had to go mate!!!!!I need a bigger gun anyway and thats your fault by the way and that of others who have bigger ones than me?????Dont go there millpool I know your itchin to get a comment in.Seriously guys I think the main problem with my sako was a huge factory neck that was built into it and I had to bush size her down nearly ten thou for a 2/3 though grip.This in opinion is way to much and again a recipe for the bullet to wriggle a bit before going up the spout?my thoughts anyway but good riddance I say.I am not knocking sako here too much as I have had many others [long live the 6ppc]without any complaint and would still buy another but not in 222,that calibre is history for me from now on. A fast twist tight neck 6br norma RPA is on the way and should keep up with you lot then I hope?? Should be back with you guys in a week or so and thanks for all your messages etc re my Fathers passing.Cheers all.onehole.

[silentsoulsleave308holes]

mate I was very sorry to here about your loss and have been thinking of you.

 

I didnt want to burden you with a phone call as at times like these your family are all you need and most of the time you need time and space to come to terms with your loss

 

I was once told when eve and I lost a son called steven that:

 

good people leave their mark on many and they live on in happy memories for a long long time

 

I hope you are ok and I look forward to seeing you soon and look forward to seeing you shooting out at long distance with my parker hale

 

take care my friend

 

ja

[varminter]

mate I was very sorry to here about your loss and have been thinking of you.

 

I didnt want to burden you with a phone call as at times like these your family are all you need and most of the time you need time and space to come to terms with your loss

 

I was once told when eve and I lost a son called steven that:

 

good people leave their mark on many and they live on in happy memories for a long long time

 

I hope you are ok and I look forward to seeing you soon and look forward to seeing you shooting out at long distance with my parker hale

 

take care my friend

 

ja

Well said jamie Could not put it better myself!!!

All are thoughts are with you dave and your family!!!!!!!!!!!!

All the best...............

RAY..................